Smartcard Fulfilment

[Benjwri]

While travelling yesterday I noticed that GWR have enabled the purchasing and loading of single tickets to their smartcards via their app. This change hasn't been advertised anywhere, and all information I can find still claims only season tickets can be bought and loaded from the app. I did try it and all seems to be working, I purchased a CDR Off Pead Day return from Didcot to Reading with a railcard discount, loaded to the smartcard fine and operated the gates at Reading without question (Didn't try Didcot as was a purchase to extend another ticket so I could travel via Reading and avoid disruption).

However when looking at this I've become rather confused as to what controls smartcard fulfilment. I've used a C2C smartcard and app for a while now and become familiar with what I can use a smartcard on. On there most flows are available, and I can get any type of ticket on most flows except certain ones like Bath to London. This has always struck me as odd anyways, since smartcard tickets are available to London and Bath individually, and on longer journeys.

On looking at the GWR however I have become more puzzled, as it has an even more limited selection of smartcard fulfillable tickets. As far as I can tell this is not due to ticket type, and I can get any type of walk up ticket to show available. To give an example C2C will happily fulfil a Bath Spa to Goring and Streatley ticket on a smartcard, however GWR will not offer the smartcard as an option. I am unsure why it's enabled on one but not the other? Are they getting data from different places? This is a GWR priced flow, so I don't see that would be an issue, and GWR will offer smartcard tickets to other destinations from both Bath and Goring.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Basically each TOC has access to the Retail Control Service (RCS2) in this they can enable or disable whatever flows they wish for whatever fulfilment type. All TIS should take a RCS2 feed and sell tickets according to the data contained in it.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Basically each TOC has access to the Retail Control Service (RCS2) in this they can enable or disable whatever flows they wish for whatever fulfilment type. All TIS should take a RCS2 feed and sell tickets according to the data contained in it.

Not that it applies to Smartcard fulfilment, but the well-known caveat to this is that Trainline have a habit of ignoring RCS and doing their own thing, so you get things like tickets for cross-London journeys being issued as an e-ticket, which are subsequently rejected by London Underground staff.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Not that it applies to Smartcard fulfilment, but the well-known caveat to this is that Trainline have a habit of ignoring RCS and doing their own thing, so you get things like tickets for cross-London journeys being issued as an e-ticket, which are subsequently rejected by London Underground staff.

Hence the "Should"

 

[Benjwri]

Basically each TOC has access to the Retail Control Service (RCS2) in this they can enable or disable whatever flows they wish for whatever fulfilment type. All TIS should take a RCS2 feed and sell tickets according to the data contained in it.

So is the suggestion either C2C or GWR ignoring this if one offers a flow and the other doesn’t? But then C2C don’t offer them on every flow, so the only thing I can think of is GWR are manually stopping their system from selling smartcard tickets on certain flows, but not sure why.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I didn't think normal walk up tickets with a validity of longer than a day were supposed to be enabled. So if all walkup tickets are available on the C2C site that could be an error. Checking on my test tablet I can only see SVS plus season tickets enabled for Smartcard fulfilment.

 

[OscarH]

I didn't think normal walk up tickets with a validity of longer than a day were supposed to be enabled. So if all walkup tickets are available on the C2C site that could be an error. Checking on my test tablet I can only see SVS plus season tickets enabled for Smartcard fulfilment.

What's the reason for not enabling period returns?

 

[Wallsendmag]

What's the reason for not enabling period returns?

Unless you have a fully gated system they are wide open to abuse.

 

[OscarH]

Unless you have a fully gated system they are wide open to abuse.

Why are smartcards more open to it than CCST or e-ticket, can a guard not write a scan to the card with the phone they check them with (similar to scanning an e-ticket or putting a date on a CCST in biro)?

If not that seems a completes and utter failure in the spec

 

[Wallsendmag]

Why are smartcards more open to it than CCST or e-ticket, can a guard not write a scan to the card with the phone they check them with (similar to scanning an e-ticket or putting a date on a CCST in biro)?

If not that seems a completes and utter failure in the spec

Not unless the checking device has that function which most don't. Smartcards are great for Seasons and Travelcards but not much else.

 

[OscarH]

Not unless the checking device has that function which most don't. Smartcards are great for Seasons and Travelcards but not much else.

Interesting, thanks. A failure in TTK et al then

 

[Wallsendmag]

Interesting, thanks. A failure in TTK et al then

Not really a failure, it's just nigh on impossible to have a normal phone handset perform this function so you're looking at something vastly more expensive. With a perfectly acceptable and actually better alternative in barcode it's an unrealistic expense

 

[Mike395]

GTR haven't even got their Super Off-Peak day tickets e-ticketable yet (at least not on their MML route) - so I suspect my use of Smartcards for Day Travelcards is some way away. Really needs to be some direction from the industry as a whole to standardise fulfilment for equivalent tickets across the entire country, or people just will get confused and stick to paper/e-ticket even where a Smartcard is more suited.

 

[Benjwri]

Not really a failure, it's just nigh on impossible to have a normal phone handset perform this function so you're looking at something vastly more expensive. With a perfectly acceptable and actually better alternative in barcode it's an unrealistic expense

I can’t think of numerous ways this could be achieved for no extra cost. When the standard was created we could have had a field for scans. Both the RPI devices capable of reading the cards and gatelines are able to write to a smartcard. Or the scans could be stored in the cloud in a similar way to e tickets already are, in fact they could probably use the same database.

 

[OscarH]

Not really a failure, it's just nigh on impossible to have a normal phone handset perform this function so you're looking at something vastly more expensive. With a perfectly acceptable and actually better alternative in barcode it's an unrealistic expense

I don't know the ins and outs of NFC, I'd always assumed there was nothing stopping a phone writing data as well as reading it, but maybe not then.

Even so, storing scans in eTVD rather than on the card as Benjwri says should be possible without much effort and allow this

I personally do prefer e-tickets (though other barcoded tickets like m- and s-tickets are terrible), I just don't see this argument for neutering smartcards

 

[Ediswan]

I don't know the ins and outs of NFC, I'd always assumed there was nothing stopping a phone writing data as well as reading it, but maybe not then.

As best as I can tell, in general, NFC equipped phones can write to smartcards. GTR say, in relation to The Key (their emphasis):

It is now even quicker to load your tickets to your Smartcard with our app, allowing you to reduce the time spent at the station.

https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/tickets/the-key-smartcard

I suspect @Wallsendmag has something else in mind that a normal smartphone can't readily do.

 

[Gaelan]

Other examples: the Scottish government has an app that loads the under-22 bus pass onto Young Scot cards (produced before the start of the scheme; new cards don't need this step), and the Paris RATP's app can load tickets onto a Navigo card.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The records of use aren't kept on the card, ITSO Part 11 allows loading and updating of a product on a Smartcard by a mobile device. But use records need to be sent to the TMS which involves the use of an ISAM , that's where the problem lies.

 

[Haywain]

Smartcards are great for Seasons and Travelcards but not much else.

Also very good for PAYG and Account Based Ticketing.

But use records need to be sent to the TMS which involves the use of an ISAM , that's where the problem lies.

You should know by now that you're going to need to explain TMS and ISAM.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Also very good for PAYG and Account Based Ticketing.

You should know by now that you're going to need to explain TMS and ISAM.

Transaction Management System and ISAM (an acronym for indexed sequential access method)

 

[kkong]

Transaction Management System and ISAM (an acronym for indexed sequential access method)

Actually "ITSO Secure Application Module".

It's the bit they need to keep as controlled as possible to stop them falling into the wrong hands, and they don't publish the spec of how it works internally.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Actually "ITSO Secure Application Module".

It's the bit they need to keep as controlled as possible to stop them falling into the wrong hands, and they don't publish the spec of how it works internally.

That'll teach me to copy and paste the first response from Google

 

[Haywain]

It's the bit they need to keep as controlled as possible to stop them falling into the wrong hands, and they don't publish the spec of how it works internally.

I'm guessing that is what makes the use of mobile phones a problem.

 

[MrJeeves]

Not really a failure, it's just nigh on impossible to have a normal phone handset perform this function so you're looking at something vastly more expensive. With a perfectly acceptable and actually better alternative in barcode it's an unrealistic expense

How come? The phone would be able to read the smartcard number and report a scan through the internet to a central database perfectly fine. This could be through an API that then relays the appropriate info to the backend system in whatever format is needed.

Any modern smartphone with NFC can read ITSO smartcards and write (with the appropriate keys) to an ITSO smartcard, too, just not update the usage of a product.

I would argue that scans wouldn't need to be recorded on the card itself in reality (just like how e-tickets work), but that is what the original question was.

 

[FenMan]

A slight digression from the original topic. I have a GWR Touch smartcard, but I find the GWR app a total pain to use.

Question: Can I purchase a ticket via the C2C app (for example) and load it onto the GWR Touch card via NFC as normal?

 

[Bungle965]

I didn't think normal walk up tickets with a validity of longer than a day were supposed to be enabled.

I'm fairly certain Avanti have the vast majority of their flows enabled for most ticket types except Advance, excluding of course Cross-London.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Apr 2023 ==

Question: Can I purchase a ticket via the C2C app (for example) and load it onto the GWR Touch card via NFC as normal?

WebTIS retailing is restricted to a TOC’s own cards due to technical constraints