Letter received for fare evasion

[CharlieSpotted]

It is perhaps a bit pedantic - but only intended to be helpful.

For currency, you should use a period (.) instead of a comma (,) as the decimal separator and put the currency symbol first rather than last, ie:

£77.70

and not

77,70£

 

[Haywain]

It is perhaps a bit pedantic - but only intended to be helpful.

For currency, you should use a period (.) instead of a comma (,) as the decimal separator and put the currency symbol first rather than last, ie:

£77.70

and not

77,70£

In the UK. Practice in other countries may vary.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Indeed, but for writing to a UK company, it seems right to use our convention.

 

[WesternLancer]

So, should I just leave it out, or instead say that I paid for a colleague's new ticket as he/she didn't have enough money (which was also the case), showing that I was open to correct the situation?

Just leave it all out for reasons others have stated - eg edit your draft as per below:




Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to respond to your letter.

On the 6th November 2022 I was approached by inspectors on my journey from London to Leamington Spa as I had selected a Railcard discount for my fare when I didn’t have an active Railcard. I normally renew my Railcard at the start of each academic year, but had not done so yet this year yet after spending a year abroad. I still chose the discount despite not having renewed my subscription yet, so it was completely my fault. I understood my mistake, and accepted the consequences, so much so that I paid my companion’s penalty (77,70£) as I had bought their tickets incorrectly as well. This shows I was completely open to collaborate and pay the fine. As for my case, I don’t recall being asked to pay and instead was told a letter would arrive home, but I would have paid if that had been the case.

After receiving your letter about any more possible journeys where I might have done the same thing, I checked my travel history and identified one more journey (to and from) on October 31st/January 1st where the same mistake applies. It is written in the separate letter you have provided for me to fill in. Besides that, I have always purchased tickets and Railcards and used your services correctly both before and after the incident.


I deeply apologise for my mistake, and can assure you nothing like this will ever happen again. I understand how much money the railway companies lose due to fare evasion and that it is unacceptable to commit fare evasion. I have taken the necessary steps for this never to occur again — not only did I purchase train tickets correctly for another trip after this incident, but I have now renewed my Railcard as well.

As a final year student, I understand the serious repercussions my mistake can have on my future career. I am therefore kindly asking you if we can proceed with an administrative settlement without the need for court action. I have learnt from my mistake and am keen to settle this matter by paying any outstanding fees owed and compensating Chiltern for the time and administrative costs incurred by investigating the issue.

Again, I am deeply sorry for my mistake.

I hope you can look favourably on this request, and I look forward to your response.

 

[babayaga]

So,

Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to respond to your letter.

On the 6th November 2022 I was approached by inspectors on my journey from London to Leamington Spa as I had selected a Railcard discount for my fare when I didn’t have an active Railcard. I normally renew my Railcard at the start of each academic year, but had not done so yet this year yet after spending a year abroad. I still chose the discount despite not having renewed my subscription yet, so it was completely my fault. I understood my mistake, collaborated with the inspectors, and accepted the consequences. I don’t recall being asked to pay any fine or for a new ticket, and instead was told a letter would arrive home, but I would have paid if that had been the case.

After receiving your letter about any more possible journeys where I might have done the same thing, I checked my travel history and identified one more journey (to and from) on October 31st/January 1st where the same mistake applies. It is written in the separate letter you have provided for me to fill in. Besides that, I have always purchased tickets and Railcards and used your services correctly both before and after the incident.


I deeply apologise for my mistake, and can assure you nothing like this will ever happen again. I understand how much money the railway companies lose due to fare evasion and that it is unacceptable to commit fare evasion. I have taken the necessary steps for this never to occur again — not only did I purchase train tickets correctly for another trip after this incident, but I have now renewed my Railcard as well.

As a final year student, I understand the serious repercussions my mistake can have on my future career. I am therefore kindly asking you if we can proceed with an administrative settlement without the need for court action. I have learnt from my mistake and am keen to settle this matter by paying any outstanding fees owed and compensating Chiltern for the time and administrative costs incurred by investigating the issue.

Again, I am deeply sorry for my mistake.

I hope you can look favourably on this request, and I look forward to your response.

Is this fine?

 

[WesternLancer]

So,

Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to respond to your letter.

On the 6th November 2022 I was approached by inspectors on my journey from London to Leamington Spa as I had selected a Railcard discount for my fare when I didn’t have an active Railcard. I normally renew my Railcard at the start of each academic year, but had not done so yet this year yet after spending a year abroad. I still chose the discount despite not having renewed my subscription yet, so it was completely my fault. I understood my mistake, collaborated with the inspectors, and accepted the consequences. I don’t recall being asked to pay any fine or for a new ticket, and instead was told a letter would arrive home, but I would have paid if that had been the case.

After receiving your letter about any more possible journeys where I might have done the same thing, I checked my travel history and identified one more journey (to and from) on October 31st/January 1st where the same mistake applies. It is written in the separate letter you have provided for me to fill in. Besides that, I have always purchased tickets and Railcards and used your services correctly both before and after the incident.


I deeply apologise for my mistake, and can assure you nothing like this will ever happen again. I understand how much money the railway companies lose due to fare evasion and that it is unacceptable to commit fare evasion. I have taken the necessary steps for this never to occur again — not only did I purchase train tickets correctly for another trip after this incident, but I have now renewed my Railcard as well.

As a final year student, I understand the serious repercussions my mistake can have on my future career. I am therefore kindly asking you if we can proceed with an administrative settlement without the need for court action. I have learnt from my mistake and am keen to settle this matter by paying any outstanding fees owed and compensating Chiltern for the time and administrative costs incurred by investigating the issue.

Again, I am deeply sorry for my mistake.

I hope you can look favourably on this request, and I look forward to your response.

Is this fine?

I'd say looks OK - add in any reference numbers they use on what they have written to you so that it can be matched up with other paperwork easily (but obv don't post them here).

Good luck.

 

[babayaga]

I'd say looks OK - add in any reference numbers they use on what they have written to you so that it can be matched up with other paperwork easily (but obv don't post them here).

Good luck.

Perfect, thanks!

 

[WesternLancer]

Perfect, thanks!

Head back here when you hear back from TIL if you need further advice.

 

[babayaga]

Head back here when you hear back from TIL if you need further advice.

I have received a letter back form them asking for a copy of both sides of my railcard. I don't have a physical railcard, it is digital, so I will be sending them that. Should I send a screenshot of the whole screen including my face?

 

[Haywain]

I have received a letter back form them asking for a copy of both sides of my railcard. I don't have a physical railcard, it is digital, so I will be sending them that. Should I send a screenshot of the whole screen including my face?

Definitely, failure to do so would suggest that there is something to hide.

 

[babayaga]

The first letter I received after my initial reply asked me to provide proof I bought a railcard, so I did. The second asked me to send a picture of my railcard, which I did as well. Now I have received the attached letter.
I don't know if they maybe misunderstood my first letter and thought I was saying that I did have a valid railcard?

What should I reply to this? Something along the lines of my initial letter? Explaining what happened, saying sorry, saying that I want to pay for the fine and the administrative costs, and asking to settle without going to court?

 

[spag23]

Yes, they seem to have responded to a non-existent claim by you that the Railcard you subsequently bought was valid for the journey in question.
Tell them you never made the claim that they have wrongly inferred. Remind them that at the time you bought the ticket and travelled, you were unaware that your previous card had expired. But, as already stated, you accept full responsibility for this oversight. Plus tell them you only mentioned the recent purchase of a Railcard as a demonstration of your good intent; not to challenge the accusation.

 

[WesternLancer]

The first letter I received after my initial reply asked me to provide proof I bought a railcard, so I did. The second asked me to send a picture of my railcard, which I did as well. Now I have received the attached letter. View attachment 131184
I don't know if they maybe misunderstood my first letter and thought I was saying that I did have a valid railcard?

What should I reply to this? Something along the lines of my initial letter? Explaining what happened, saying sorry, saying that I want to pay for the fine and the administrative costs, and asking to settle without going to court?

They would have been asking for / assuming proof of having bought a raiclard before you travelled (set foot on the train) with the discounted railcard ticket. IIRC you did not do that - so the ticket breach you made is indeed a breach.

So all you can do now is write back again, as exactly as you say. You can say that you have bought a railcard to prevent this happening again and learned your lesson as part of you reply. Feel free to post your draft if you want any comments from forum members before you respond.

It's good that they are giving you another chance to do this, instead of going direct to court. so I suspect you have a good chance of reaching a settlement.

EDIT - just noticed the excellent advice just posted by @spag23 post #42 which is a very good guide to what you should now include.

 

[Hadders]

@spag23 gives some good advice.

It is not u usual to have to write a couple of times when Transport Investigations Limited get involved with a case.

 

[some bloke]

You can post a draft on here again.

Your first letter says "mistake" six times but I'm not clear whether they were mistakes, or if so how they happened (explanations could make them more plausible).

You said in the original post that your case is similar to those of people who deliberately avoided fares; and "I had avoided it once a month before".

Don't say or imply they were mistakes if you deliberately avoided the fares.

Be polite and tactful, especially if you are implying they were wrong to write as if you claimed to have had a valid railcard.

If you upload this anonymised, it might help clarify what to write about their possible misunderstanding of what you wrote when submitting the image:

I have received a letter back form them asking for a copy of both sides of my railcard.

And what did you say when you replied with the image?

What you write may depend on what the inspector and you said at the time.

They may be still talking about prosecution not so much because of a misunderstanding of what you meant about the railcard, but more because they are unconvinced by what you told the inspector and/or them:

I still chose the discount despite not having renewed my subscription yet, so it was completely my fault. I understood my mistake

"I still chose the discount" may be viewed as an unusual statement from someone who made a mistake.

 

[spag23]

you were unaware that your previous card had expired.

Correction. On re-reading the thread, I've just realised that this OP never claimed to have had a Railcard. My apologies for conflating this case with a similar one. But the other points in post #42 stand.

 

[Haywain]

Your first letter says "mistake" six times but I'm not clear whether they were mistakes, or if so how they happened (explanations could make them more plausible).

You said in the original post that your case is similar to those of people who deliberately avoided fares; and "I had avoided it once a month before".

Don't say or imply they were mistakes if you deliberately avoided the fares.

This is pointless as the discussion about what constitutes a fine. If it was a mistake in the OP's eyes, that’s what it was. A deliberate action can still be a mistake.

 

[some bloke]

This is pointless as the discussion about what constitutes a fine. If it was a mistake in the OP's eyes, that’s what it was. A deliberate action can still be a mistake.

Advice earlier today took @babayaga to mean it was not deliberate, and on that basis recommended that they make it more explicit. It is far from pointless to establish whether that is correct or they could be digging themselves a deeper hole.

 

[babayaga]

Dear Sir/Madam,

The proof of railcard I have shown in my previous letters was not intended to show that I had a valid railcard before the issue took place, as I believe you may have inferred. As stated in my initial letter, I only mentioned my more recent purchase of a Railcard as a demonstration of my good intent, not to challenge the accusation. After the incident took place, I immediately understood I was in the wrong and took precautions for it never to happen again. My consequent trip was purchased correctly without selecting a railcard discount, and I later on purchased my new railcard for thr future trips I will be taking.

I have been using railcard services correctly throughout my studies, but had not renewed my railcard yet for this year after having spent a year abroad. I am truly sorry, as I understand how much money raiwlay companies lose due to fair evasion and that it is comletely unacceptable. I am keen to settle the matter by paying any fees owed and compensating Chiltern and TIL for the time and administrative costs incurred by investigating the issue.

I understand the serious repercussions my mistake can have on my future career, and therefore kindly ask you if we can proceed with an administrative settlement. I can assure you nothing like this will ever happen again.

Sincerely,

Does this sound ok?

They also state "please respond in writing or email". Can I therefore directly reply in an email? Or should I still print out a letter, scan it and attach that in an email? I suppose the latter seems more serious.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Dear Sir/Madam,

The proof of railcard I have shown in my previous letters was not intended to show that I had a valid railcard before the issue took place, as I believe you may have inferred. As stated in my initial letter, I only mentioned my more recent purchase of a Railcard as a demonstration of my good intent, not to challenge the accusation. After the incident took place, I immediately understood I was in the wrong and took precautions for it never to happen again. My consequent trip was purchased correctly without selecting a railcard discount, and I later on purchased my new railcard for thr future trips I will be taking.

I have been using railcard services correctly throughout my studies, but had not renewed my railcard yet for this year after having spent a year abroad. I am truly sorry, as I understand how much money raiwlay companies lose due to fair evasion and that it is comletely unacceptable. I am keen to settle the matter by paying any fees owed and compensating Chiltern and TIL for the time and administrative costs incurred by investigating the issue.

I understand the serious repercussions my mistake can have on my future career, and therefore kindly ask you if we can proceed with an administrative settlement. I can assure you nothing like this will ever happen again.

Sincerely,

Does this sound ok?

They also state "please respond in writing or email". Can I therefore directly reply in an email? Or should I still print out a letter, scan it and attach that in an email? I suppose the latter seems more serious.

A couple of points:

- it may be worth apologising for your wording that led the railway to infer that you had a valid railcard. As it stands at the moment, it rather suggests that you think the railway were at fault for misunderstanding you - and since you want something from them (i.e. not to go to court) then it's worth not getting their back up. Maybe say something like 'I am sorry if I gave that impression' after 'inferred.'.
- as an email response has been invited, sending an email as a reply is fine. But it would probably be best to still lay it out like a letter, with 'Dear Sir/Madam' at the top and 'Sincerely' at the bottom. Just because it's electronic and not on paper is no reason not to treat it seriously!

 

[spag23]

If anyone should be apologising, it's the so-called "professional" case handlers, who are clearly not reading the OP's responses.
I can see absolutely nothing in the OP's letters that could possibly have led the TOC to infer that he ever claimed the newly purchased Railcard was applicable to the journey in question.
The TOC said "..we are satisfied that the matter has been correctly reported.." But the OP never said otherwise. They are denying an assertion the OP never made. Indeed he made it clear he was totally at fault and was accepting full responsibility.
The TOC's wrong inference is further compounded by their "The Railcard provided by you was not valid at the time of travel and your ticket is still invalid". Again they are addressing a fabricated, non-existent challenge by the OP.
It's not clear why the TOC has flown off on this flight of fancy; perhaps confusing the OP with another case, or just too lazy to read his eloquent, apologetic response?
I consider the OP is already being, if anything, overly polite over the case handlers' failure to read what he wrote.

 

[AlterEgo]

I can see absolutely nothing in the OP's letters that could possibly have led the TOC to infer that he ever claimed the newly purchased Railcard was applicable to the journey in question.
The TOC said "..we are satisfied that the matter has been correctly reported.." But the OP never said otherwise. They are denying an assertion the OP never made. Indeed he made it clear he was totally at fault and was accepting full responsibility.

Indeed.

The OP may consider writing back to correct this incorrect assertion. They took the time to explain why they did not have a railcard and as far as I can see never implied they had a valid railcard.

 

[some bloke]

Be careful to ensure you are a strong position before being very assertive about a mistake they may have made.

The first letter I received after my initial reply asked me to provide proof I bought a railcard, so I did. The second asked me to send a picture of my railcard, which I did as well. Now I have received the attached letter.

If you upload their request and anything you wrote when sending the proof, those may show more clearly whether their interpretation was justified.

If you are not sticking to your initial position that this was an honest mistake, and/or the position about the earlier incident is not clear, those may also be reasons to be more tactful.

 

[spag23]

Be careful to ensure you are a strong position before being very assertive about a mistake they may have made.

The OP's post #49 is hardly assertive, and contains no rebuke (however much deserved!) for the TOC's misrepresentation of his position. Instead he patiently restated his position, commendably biting his tongue and resisting the urge to say "You plonkers clearly haven't read my letter".

 

[some bloke]

I recommend you start more gently with

"Thank you for your letter/email of ..."

and if appropriate tailor the tone according to the wording of their request, and your reply with the proof - correspondence which we have not seen.

 

[babayaga]

I need urgent help. That last email I sent was on March 24th. I did not receive any answer from TIL. I have just returned to the UK today, and found a letter in the mail from them, sent March 27th. It have attached a picture.
My 21 days have passed since they sent it, as I was not in the UK and couldn't have possibly known about it, but I had already told them I was going to be out of the country. I will be sending an email back tomorrow first thing explaining this and with my answer.
I really don't know what to say. £1646.10 is completely disproportionate, I don't have that kind of money. I used the fare reduction on 2 journeys (2 different full return journeys) in October/November 2022. Prior to that I had always used the railcard correctly and purchased tickets correctly, I checked. What can I answer?
is my best option just to go to magistrates? Does going to magistrates automatically mean I will have a criminal record, which will affect my future employment status in the country? I am completely lost as to what my best option is here. Should I contact my university?

 

[furlong]

Have you asked them for a breakdown of that number? You obviously need to do so, to find out what journeys are on their list and what fares they are wanting to charge.
I think you're saying you used to have a railcard so perhaps they are trying to charge you - without any evidence of wrong-doing - for journeys from then?
If so, and if you have some evidence of previously holding a railcard that you can show them that might resolve this more quickly. (Failing that, say where you bought it and when etc. if you can remember or find card payments.)

Ultimately unless you admit it, they have to prove you evaded fares on each occasion beyond reasonable doubt and you wouldn't be expected to keep an old railcard beyond its expiry date and the railway should be expected to hold a record of it (but that isn't always reliable or easy to locate).

 

[babayaga]

I have proof of when I bought railcards for 2019/2020 and 2020/2021, I have the receipts. So I'll send those over tomorrow and remind them that as far as I'm aware I have only misused the discount on these 2 occasions this year. I'll also ask for a breakdown of the price and for them to inform me of the all journeys they believe I used the discount inappropriately. Does that sound about right? I'll write the letter today and post it here. I really think they're taking advantage of the situation in order to ask for as much money as possible. As far as my other questions go, in the case that this ended in Magistrates, would it 100% mean a criminal record or could it just mean a fine?

 

[AlterEgo]

As far as my other questions go, in the case that this ended in Magistrates, would it 100% mean a criminal record or could it just mean a fine?

The magistrates' is a criminal court, so a conviction means you have a criminal record. However a bylaw offence is a very small matter and will usually have a negligible effect on someone's life and you will likely almost never have to disclose it.

 

[babayaga]

Dear Sir/Madam,

After sending my last email on March 24th, I received no response. I have only returned to the UK today and have seen the letter you sent me by mail on March 27th, requesting payment of £1,646.10 be made no later than 21 days after that date. The 21 days have passed, but I had no way of knowing about this since I was out of the country until today, as I had previously informed you.

Regarding the letter's content, would it be possible for you to send me a breakdown of that sum? You state I have purchased several invalid tickets from October 2019 and November 2022. However, I bought and used railcards correctly for the periods 13/10/2019-13/10-2020 and 17/10/2020-17/10/2021. All my use of railcard discounts for tickets during those times was covered correctly by my purchase of these railcards. I have attached proof of these railcard purchases below.

As I initially admitted and informed in my first letter, I incorrectly used the railcard discount for two journeys (to/from) between October/November 2022 and had never done so anytime before. These are:

• (1) to/from Leamington Spa to London Marylebone (first journey being 29/10/2022; return journey being 30/10/2022)
• (2) to/from Leamington Spa to London Marylebone (first journey being 4/11/2022; return journey being 6/11/2022)

Please let me know if you think there are more occasions I committed this mistake. Having checked my travel history, these are the only two where the issue occurred, as I had not yet purchased my railcard for this year.

Sincerely,


Anything I should change or add?