Letter received for fare evasion

[WesternLancer]

Dear Sir/Madam,

After sending my last email on March 24th, I received no response. I have only returned to the UK today and have seen the letter you sent me by mail on March 27th, requesting payment of £1,646.10 be made no later than 21 days after that date. The 21 days have passed, but I had no way of knowing about this since I was out of the country until today, as I had previously informed you.

Regarding the letter's content, would it be possible for you to send me a breakdown of that sum? You state I have purchased several invalid tickets from October 2019 and November 2022. However, I bought and used railcards correctly for the periods 13/10/2019-13/10-2020 and 17/10/2020-17/10/2021. All my use of railcard discounts for tickets during those times was covered correctly by my purchase of these railcards. I have attached proof of these railcard purchases below.

As I initially admitted and informed in my first letter, I incorrectly used the railcard discount for two journeys (to/from) between October/November 2022 and had never done so anytime before. These are:

• (1) to/from Leamington Spa to London Marylebone (first journey being 29/10/2022; return journey being 30/10/2022)
• (2) to/from Leamington Spa to London Marylebone (first journey being 4/11/2022; return journey being 6/11/2022)

Please let me know if you think there are more occasions I committed this mistake. Having checked my travel history, these are the only two where the issue occurred, as I had not yet purchased my railcard for this year.

Sincerely,


Anything I should change or add?

I wonder if the tone could be a bit more 'pleading' - eg:

'I realise that I made a serious mistake in not having a valid Railcard on those occasions, would seem to be disproportionate to the losses the railway company has incurred by my error, moreover I will find it extremely difficult to raise the sum being requested. I am keen to co-operate with you regarding this matter, and would like to avoid the matter being considered at court, but I would be most grateful if you can look sympathetically once again at my case, as well as help me understand how you have arrived at this figure with a breakdown.

I look forward to hearing from you, and once again I apologise for the delayed response to this letter whilst I was out of the country for personal reasons. If it helps you can also e-mail me at xxxxxx'

Is there anything else at stake for you ref this (eg a UK visa or whatever?) as otherwise you could opt for the matter to go to court and plead your case to the magistrates, or go to the court, seek out the prosecutor ahead of the case hearing and seek again to see if they will settle for less that £1,600 maybe by asking the prosecutor.

 

[babayaga]

I wonder if the tone could be a bit more 'pleading' - eg:

'I realise that I made a serious mistake in not having a valid Railcard on those occasions, would seem to be disproportionate to the losses the railway company has incurred by my error, moreover I will find it extremely difficult to raise the sum being requested. I am keen to co-operate with you regarding this matter, and would like to avoid the matter being considered at court, but I would be most grateful if you can look sympathetically once again at my case, as well as help me understand how you have arrived at this figure with a breakdown.

I look forward to hearing from you, and once again I apologise for the delayed response to this letter whilst I was out of the country for personal reasons. If it helps you can also e-mail me at xxxxxx'

Is there anything else at stake for you ref this (eg a UK visa or whatever?) as otherwise you could opt for the matter to go to court and plead your case to the magistrates, or go to the court, seek out the prosecutor ahead of the case hearing and seek again to see if they will settle for less that £1,600 maybe by asking the prosecutor.

I already sent the email as it was, with minor changes. I wanted to do it as quickly as possible, as the theoretical 21-day deadline had passed. Should I send another one adding this?
I don't have a UK visa at stake, I have been studying here for some years now and have pre-settled status. However, I want to stay in the UK and work here after my studies. What would you recommend in this case if they don't budge regarding the money? If, for example, I wanted to work at a bank in the future, would this conviction of a bylaw offence be easily visible to them and make it impossible to work there?

 

[WesternLancer]

I already sent the email as it was, with minor changes. I wanted to do it as quickly as possible, as the theoretical 21-day deadline had passed. Should I send another one adding this?
I don't have a UK visa at stake, I have been studying here for some years now and have pre-settled status. However, I want to stay in the UK and work here after my studies. What would you recommend in this case if they don't budge regarding the money? If, for example, I wanted to work at a bank in the future, would this conviction of a bylaw offence be easily visible to them and make it impossible to work there?

OK, I would not send another e-mail now, wait and see what they reply with. Depending on that you could use some of my suggestion in a further reply.

I don't know about court conviction on job prospects inc finance - others may know more, @Fawkes Cat often gives good advice on this as do others IIRC

I think if they stick to the sum (and keep sticking to it despite further letters that you may write) your choice is to pay it, or go to court, get the guilty verdict and record, but calculate what the court fine and associated costs in money terms might be to weigh this up (I can't recall who but some posters have set out what that sum would probably be, it's linked to your income and these is a formula, and it can be paid in installments AFAIK. As £1.6k is so high it may be even that it is less than £1.6k.

You seem certain that you have only done 4 train trips with this issue, so 4 times Anytime Single, Leamington Spa to Marylebone + their 'admin fee' which maybe reasonably £250 say.

So that is 4x£85.20 + £250 = £590.80
so I would have thought a sum of more like £650 to £750 might be more like what they would have asked you for.

I wonder what other experienced posters think?

Keep engaging with them in writing and update when you get responses to see what people think on your next steps.

 

[Haywain]

If, for example, I wanted to work at a bank in the future, would this conviction of a bylaw offence be easily visible to them and make it impossible to work there?

If you wanted to work at a bank, you should reveal the conviction to them yourself rather than hope they don't find out. If they did find out and you had not revealed it that would most likely be grounds for dismissal, especially during a probationary period.

 

[babayaga]

OK, I would not send another e-mail now, wait and see what they reply with. Depending on that you could use some of my suggestion in a further reply.

I don't know about court conviction on job prospects inc finance - others may know more, @Fawkes Cat often gives good advice on this as do others IIRC

I think if they stick to the sum (and keep sticking to it despite further letters that you may write) your choice is to pay it, or go to court, get the guilty verdict and record, but calculate what the court fine and associated costs in money terms might be to weigh this up (I can't recall who but some posters have set out what that sum would probably be, it's linked to your income and these is a formula, and it can be paid in installments AFAIK. As £1.6k is so high it may be even that it is less than £1.6k.

You seem certain that you have only done 4 train trips with this issue, so 4 times Anytime Single, Leamington Spa to Marylebone + their 'admin fee' which maybe reasonably £250 say.

So that is 4x£85.20 + £250 = £590.80
so I would have thought a sum of more like £650 to £750 might be more like what they would have asked you for.

I wonder what other experienced posters think?

Keep engaging with them in writing and update when you get responses to see what people think on your next steps

Thank you for the information. I don't have income as I am a student, so I don't know how that formula would be used in my case. Any information would be appreciated if anyone knows more or less what the cost would be.

Do you think I should contemplate contacting my university for guidance on this?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for the information. I don't have income as I am a student, so I don't know how that formula would be used in my case. Any information would be appreciated if anyone knows more or less what the cost would be.

Do you think I should contemplate contacting my university for guidance on this?

They will have a sum for notional income as a student (probably in the lowest tier) - students guilty of offences at court that are deemed suitable for fines still get fined after all!

Yes, you should contact your university - start with student union advice centre. Since any advice or help they can give you would be free, there can be no reason NOT to contact them after all. They may be able to help you access free or reduced price legal help, they may be able to advise on how the Hardship Fund could help you if you have to pay this sum or indeed the fine. I'd have contacted them right at the start to be hones, but no harm in doing that now. They would keep it confidential and probably even keep it confidential within the unviersity if you asked them to.
But then I would say this as I said that you should do it way back in post#2

 

[island]

If you wanted to work at a bank, you should reveal the conviction to them yourself rather than hope they don't find out. If they did find out and you had not revealed it that would most likely be grounds for dismissal, especially during a probationary period.

Indeed. Speaking as a senior manager of a bank, we would generally be relaxed about employing someone with a single conviction for a minor offence such as a once-off failure to pay a train fare, as long as said conviction was declared to us at the first time of asking. On the other hand, if we were to find out about such a matter from a DBS check after the candidate/new employee had declared a clean record, we would likely be minded to infer that the person in question was unsuitable due to dishonesty.

They will have a sum for notional income as a student (probably in the lowest tier) - students guilty of offences at court that are deemed suitable for fines still get fined after all!

From memory it's £180 a week.

 

[Hadders]

As such a large settlement figure is being requested I think it's fine to ask for a breakdown of it, particularly as there seems to be a difference about the number of journeys made without a railcard, and the OP has been able ot provide a receipt showing a railcard was purchased.

 

[babayaga]

I have received an identical letter back but with a revised settlement figure of £410.80. I have also received an attached sheet of paper detailing all my journeys and highlighting those where I improperly used the discount. As I informed you, this was only for 2 journeys (both to and from London Marylebone-Leamington Spa, so a total of 4 journeys). The penalty is broken down into £155.40 for each of those 2 journeys (so £77,7 for each single journey), + an additional £100 in administrative costs.

I have a few questions regarding the fee. Does it seem reasonable/correct? Am I correct in assuming that, even though I did pay for a ticket and just applied an incorrect discount, in the eyes of their frameworks and regulations, that is seen in the same way as not having a ticket at all, hence the £77,7 cost per journey even if I did pay for a ticket albeit without a railcard? Is there any way I could appeal for the fine to be less hefty?

It is still quite a lot of money for me, so going to Magistrates is not out of the question. What would going to magistrates entail in terms of a criminal record? I have been told that an issue like this does not incur a criminal record.
Also, how much money would I be fined/have to pay after the Magistrate hearing?

 

[Haywain]

What would going to magistrates entail in terms of a criminal record? I have been told that an issue like this does not incur a criminal record.
Also, how much money would I be fined/have to pay after the Magistrate hearing?

You would, almost certainly, be found guilty and you would receive a fine. In addition to the fine there will be the victim surcharge and costs plus an application for the fares avoided. In total this is likely to come to rather more than £410.80. I would pay the settlement figure and look on it as £1200+ saved.

 

[WesternLancer]

I have received an identical letter back but with a revised settlement figure of £410.80. I have also received an attached sheet of paper detailing all my journeys and highlighting those where I improperly used the discount. As I informed you, this was only for 2 journeys (both to and from London Marylebone-Leamington Spa, so a total of 4 journeys). The penalty is broken down into £155.40 for each of those 2 journeys (so £77,7 for each single journey), + an additional £100 in administrative costs.

I have a few questions regarding the fee. Does it seem reasonable/correct? Am I correct in assuming that, even though I did pay for a ticket and just applied an incorrect discount, in the eyes of their frameworks and regulations, that is seen in the same way as not having a ticket at all, hence the £77,7 cost per journey even if I did pay for a ticket albeit without a railcard? Is there any way I could appeal for the fine to be less hefty?

It is still quite a lot of money for me, so going to Magistrates is not out of the question. What would going to magistrates entail in terms of a criminal record? I have been told that an issue like this does not incur a criminal record.
Also, how much money would I be fined/have to pay after the Magistrate hearing?

Thanks for the update and well done for getting this far. I think you have done well to get this reduced to the sum they are now asking for actually.

£100 admin costs is fairly typical and towards the lower end of what we sometimes see.
The sum for each single journey is what they will ask for - they consider any ticket you held that was not fully valid as not valid at all (as you say, seen as not having a ticket at all) and thus has to be replaced with a full price ticket (which is what is called an 'Anytime' fare - all other tickets, off peak, railcard discounted etc, Advance fare etc etc are considered to be various forms of discounted ticket)

So I would now suggest that you should pay this as quickly as possible (even if you have to borrow some money from a friend or relative to do so, if this is possible) - this is because the various court fines and charges you would pay will be this or higher - probably higher - and you would also have a criminal record (due to being found guilty) which may result in other problems down the line - ones that could even potentially increase costs to you for future things you may need.

I suspect that to go to the court and plead not guilty and win that would likely need the help of a solicitor - who still might not be able to secure a not guilty verdict, and a solicitor would also cost you more than £400.

Paying them £410.80 now should end the matter and I would think that would be the best outcome. Tho ultimately it is up to you to decide, so you are right to ask for views and opinions

 

[babayaga]

OK. I'll pay the fine as soon as I can then. Thank you to everyone who has commented on the issue, you have all been of great help. I am very grateful that you all took the time to help me out.

 

[WesternLancer]

OK. I'll pay the fine as soon as I can then. Thank you to everyone who has commented on the issue, you have all been of great help. I am very grateful that you all took the time to help me out.

Sorry to be a bit pedantic but technically they are asking you to pay a settlement to avoid a fine (that fine being something the court would sentence you to if they took you to court) - tho of course I can fully see why the sum they are asking for feels like a fine to you!

 

[furlong]

Pragmatically, you might as well just find a way to pay now and cut your losses.

In a criminal court, there's a good argument to say they are only entitled to the difference in fares, but you might need to pay a lawyer to make that argument properly for you - which would cost you more than you save. There was a publicised case a few years ago where a similar argument succeeded against Chiltern and saved the criminal thousands of pounds.

However it would be easy to understand if a civil court was to award the full sum requested on the basis of what the contract says.

 

[Hadders]

The revised settlement seems reasonable, all things considered. To echo what others have said it will almost certainly be much more expensive if it ends up in court.

If you pay the amount that will be the end of the matter.