State of GWR’s IETs

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The whole situation does make me very interested in where we'll be in five years time. Assuming the DfT and GWR consider the railway "too poor" to do anything about the worsening state of the trains - most particularly the 800/0s with the other IET fleets seeming notably in better condition - then they are likely to be in such an appalling condition it'd be almost newsworthy.

 

[Martin_1981]

Did St Erth to Penzance on an IET yesterday afternoon (service had come from Bristol). Carpets and windows were dirty and the external paint around the doors and the front headlights was peeling away. The noise of engine beneath the carriage I was in sounded like it was struggling to cope (noise went up and down in volume as it went along). Seemed more like a 25 year old train than a 5 year old one.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I really hope that when the future design and build or trains to replace these enters the concept stage in about a decade and a half or they're about that every single one of these mistakes is acknowledged and we are presented with the future generation of rolling stock that actually works properly. I did Newport to Reading on Saturday and the carriage I was in seemed to have an air conditioning fault after passing through the seven tunnel in as much as the vents were letting in a lot of excess air and therefore noise and presumably were dragging at the wind resistance

 

[Meerkat]

Just been announced.
Maintenance contract for 36 GWR class 802s been extended 5 years to 2028


Bit surprised the maintenance costs are over £1m per week

Great Western Railway extends Class 802 maintenance contract

Hitachi Rail will maintain Great Western Railway's (GWR) West of England fleet of 36 Class 802 Intercity Express Trains until 2028.

www.globalrailwayreview.com

I thought GWR was going to maintain these at Laira?

Surely Hitachi can sue the seat producers for providing seats that collapse this quickly?

 

[Snow1964]

I thought GWR was going to maintain these at Laira?

Surely Hitachi can sue the seat producers for providing seats that collapse this quickly?

Separate contract.

Hitachi have a contract to maintain the trains, they need to do this regardless of any claim until a contract with the seat manufacture.

The maintenance contract is unlikely to be conditional, of form if (and only if) successfully claim off seat manufacturer do you have to bother to fix them.
In other words Hitachi needs to get replacements fitted, then in its own time can pursue any claim for faulty seats.

 

[PG]

Surely Hitachi can sue the seat producers for providing seats that collapse this quickly?

Maybe the forums' resident seating expert (@Bletchleyite ) can enlighten us on the nature of such claims and their resolution in the seating industry?

 

[virgintrain1]

The seat base situation is getting ridiculous.

This was the carpet of the luggage stack!

 

[Jrocks]

The seat base situation is getting ridiculous.

This was the carpet of the luggage stack!

That's awful! Any idea what unit and coach it was? Know certain units (the 800s) are getting or have got new carpet fitted on GWR.

 

[brad465]

They might get a bit of a mid life upgrade...

...money permitting

The way things are looking mid life might have already passed

 

[fgwrich]

The seat base situation is getting ridiculous.

This was the carpet of the luggage stack!

At least there was carpet there, I travelled on one a few years ago where the carpet was missing in the vestibule!

 

[Martin_1981]

The seats on these things are awful, like sitting on a park bench. I've done Exeter to Paddington on them a few times but I can honestly say the SWR 159s are far comfier, therefore I tend to use those when I go to London. Even the seats on the XC Voyagers are better than the IET seats.

The IETs are built on the cheap, with little regard to passenger comfort. Almost like many new build houses these days, 'knock em up and flog em quick'.

 

[py_megapixel]

At least there was carpet there, I travelled on one a few years ago where the carpet was missing in the vestibule!

Surely no carpet is better than a ripped, stained carpet?

 

[Sam 76]

Interesting reading these comments. Having only travelled on the TPE 802’s their condition seems miles apart with them still being a very smart product

 

[PG]

The way things are looking mid life might have already passed

The way things are looking the maintenance contract (27 years IIRC?) will outlast the trains

 

[Benjwri]

The way things are looking the maintenance contract (27 years IIRC?) will outlast the trains

Considering wear and tear is included in the maintenance contract, that’s going to be a very expensive mistake for Hitachi.

People criticise the government for the IETs, and they should’ve been better, but from what I understand the maintenance contract is a stroke of genius. Hitachi delivered them a less than ideal product, but that product is now Hitachis problem to fix.

 

[fgwrich]

Considering wear and tear is included in the maintenance contract, that’s going to be a very expensive mistake for Hitachi.

People criticise the government for the IETs, and they should’ve been better, but from what I understand the maintenance contract is a stroke of genius. Hitachi delivered them a less than ideal product, but that product is now Hitachis problem to fix.

As the welding repairs are showing. Still awaiting the first repaired GWR unit to be completed and re-enter traffic. It's certainly proving costly for Hitachi, but they were the ones who bid for it and chose to accept the T&Cs, so no sympathy for them.

 

[Benjwri]

It's certainly proving costly for Hitachi, but they were the ones who bid for it and chose to accept the T&Cs, so no sympathy for them.

Exactly it is quite literally a problem of their own design. By choosing poor quality materials they have lost money in the long run.

 

[Pete_uk]

As the welding repairs are showing. Still awaiting the first repaired GWR unit to be completed and re-enter traffic. It's certainly proving costly for Hitachi, but they were the ones who bid for it and chose to accept the T&Cs, so no sympathy for them.

The first one isn't back yet??
These repairs are going to take a decade, surly

 

[Mikey C]

The first one isn't back yet??
These repairs are going to take a decade, surly

I imagine all parties are feeling surly about the situation

 

[Irascible]

I’m aware that the line between Reading-Taunton suffers from particularly poor ride quality, I think a result from the ground conditions on the line. Last year there were a number of lengthy speed restrictions during summer as a result.

Yeah, that one's always been a rough ride - made me glad I did a fair bit of sailing when I was young, helped cope with trying to get back from a HST buffet without getting thrown in someone's lap ( the trick was to basically run... ). The odd run via Bristol was always an eye-opener. Anyone with relatively recent experience of something other than HST/IET at speed along there?

The problem with IET bogies - and those of most modern trains it seems - is that the ride takes far too long to settle down after being ‘excited’ by poor geometry, curvature or pointwork etc. So if you’re riding a route with frequent ’knocks’ then it’s just one continuous nightmare of rattling, bumps and hunting.

An area we were once world leaders in. Hey ho.

People criticise the government for the IETs, and they should’ve been better, but from what I understand the maintenance contract is a stroke of genius. Hitachi delivered them a less than ideal product, but that product is now Hitachis problem to fix.

I thought that when the cracking issue showed up - the DfT dodged a cannon shell there. This is assuming Hitachi don't eventually just take a hit & leave, if enough problems build up. Anyone with knowledge of the contract know if that's ever going to be something to look out for?

 

[Benjwri]

I thought that when the cracking issue showed up - the DfT dodged a cannon shell there. This is assuming Hitachi don't eventually just take a hit & leave, if enough problems build up. Anyone with knowledge of the contract know if that's ever going to be something to look out for?

There isn’t much scope for them to withdraw without GWR/DfT breaking terms.
But if they did withdraw because it was costing them too much it would be suicide. They’d be admitting they created a sub standard product and they couldn’t fix it. It would likely end up with a huge court case, and if they lost, since GWR (and maybe even LNER) would immediately lose access to the IETs, the damages from lost revenue they’d have to pay could reach the billions.

If Hitachi survived the court case they would’ve just been publicly humiliated, and their reputation would be in tatters. They certainly wouldn’t be getting anymore or orders in Europe for decades.

 

[Sm5]

A frequent comment is always how much better older seats used to be.
Passengers complained BR seats were less comfy than GWR seats in the 1950’s.
Later people prefer mk1 to mk3 seats.
People preferred 1st gen DMU to Sprinter seats.

now in my old age i’m reading complaints that IET seats are less comfy than Sprinter seats.

I wonder is bum age / seat age are dependant and symbiotic ?

 

[Annetts key]

There isn’t much scope for them to withdraw without GWR/DfT breaking terms.
But if they did withdraw because it was costing them too much it would be suicide. They’d be admitting they created a sub standard product and they couldn’t fix it. It would likely end up with a huge court case, and if they lost, since GWR (and maybe even LNER) would immediately lose access to the IETs, the damages from lost revenue they’d have to pay could reach the billions.

If Hitachi survived the court case they would’ve just been publicly humiliated, and their reputation would be in tatters. They certainly wouldn’t be getting anymore or orders in Europe for decades.

That all assumes that they don’t sell their U.K. operation to another company. That then runs the show for a while, but eventually runs out of money. As it’s now nothing to do with Hitachi, there is far less fall out for them, and more importantly, potentially no liability.

But what happens does very much depend on the amounts of money involved. And how the management of Hitachi view any possible reputational damage.

 

[Irascible]

A frequent comment is always how much better older seats used to be.
Passengers complained BR seats were less comfy than GWR seats in the 1950’s.
Later people prefer mk1 to mk3 seats.
People preferred 1st gen DMU to Sprinter seats.

now in my old age i’m reading complaints that IET seats are less comfy than Sprinter seats.

I wonder is bum age / seat age are dependant and symbiotic ?

I honestly preferred the Mk2 bucket seats to Mk1 ( compartment benches anyway, I can't even remember being in an open Mk1 ), but given any Mk1 I was in was pretty knackered by that point ( not like I was ever in a new Mk2 either ) that's probably not a massively fair comparison. New seats generally tended to wear in & get a bit more comfortable - Mk3 seats when new I remember being not terribly great, they improved - not wear out & fall apart

Seats have got progressively thinner & harder, though. Seats falling apart in 5 years... that's probably happened before but shouldn't be brushed aside as general grumbling about "progress".

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Seats have got progressively thinner & harder, though. Seats falling apart in 5 years... that's probably happened before but shouldn't be brushed aside as general grumbling about "progress".

Possibly something to do with body type of the average passenger going the other way, if statistics are to be believed?

I do joke slightly but it was noticeable when I was at a steam railway a couple of weeks ago, sitting in a nominally 8-person third class compartment from 1925, there was absolutely no way that 8 average males would fit in the facing pair of armchair-seats nowadays. There were 5 of us and it felt pretty full. Were people really that small one hundred years ago, or were the railway companies taking the mick as much as they do today with today’s commuter seating?

 

[Irascible]

We're certainly taller on average by several cm than 1925... I don't know about BMI, but average BMI has gone up by nearly 2kg/m^2 just in the last 30 years.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Possibly something to do with body type of the average passenger going the other way, if statistics are to be believed?

I do joke slightly but it was noticeable when I was at a steam railway a couple of weeks ago, sitting in a nominally 8-person third class compartment from 1925, there was absolutely no way that 8 average males would fit in the facing pair of armchair-seats nowadays. There were 5 of us and it felt pretty full. Were people really that small one hundred years ago, or were the railway companies taking the mick as much as they do today with today’s commuter seating?

The growth of people has been an issue for those working in human factors, just look at the growth of armoured vehicles aor even bog standard cars as an example.

We're certainly taller on average by several cm than 1925... I don't know about BMI, but average BMI has gone up by nearly 2kg/m^2 just in the last 30 years.

Is it just weight per m though? I'm under the impression we've gotten much taller in general?

 

[Irascible]

Is it just weight per m though? I'm under the impression we've gotten much taller in general?

About 2cm on average since 1950, iirc. I'd be interested in stats on overall body shape though, not just BMI - do we have much broader shoulders on average, for instance. That might need some digging into medical journals. I've always had a broad enough frame that I don't sit right in a car seat, for instance - even when I was underweight.

 

[Mikey C]

I honestly preferred the Mk2 bucket seats to Mk1 ( compartment benches anyway, I can't even remember being in an open Mk1 ), but given any Mk1 I was in was pretty knackered by that point ( not like I was ever in a new Mk2 either ) that's probably not a massively fair comparison. New seats generally tended to wear in & get a bit more comfortable - Mk3 seats when new I remember being not terribly great, they improved - not wear out & fall apart

Seats have got progressively thinner & harder, though. Seats falling apart in 5 years... that's probably happened before but shouldn't be brushed aside as general grumbling about "progress".

The seats of some of the early privatisation stock like the Chiltern 168s and Southeastern 375s are to me very comfortable, and better than any BR seating in terms of comfort and shaping. The rot seemed to set in with the later Electrostars with the arrival of the first ironing boards.

 

[Class172]

The seats of some of the early privatisation stock like the Chiltern 168s and Southeastern 375s are to me very comfortable, and better than any BR seating in terms of comfort and shaping. The rot seemed to set in with the later Electrostars with the arrival of the first ironing boards.

As we know from this forum's propensity for circular discussions on seat comfort, it's always going to be an incredibly subjective issue dependent on your size, build and personal preferences—in the same way people often have very particular preferences about the type of mattress they sleep on! For me personally, of the seats I have used frequently enough to have formed an opinion, some of the most comfortable for me are the Lazzerini seats fitted to the ex-WMR 170s.

Whilst I like the HSTs for the slight 'novelty' factor, I don't have any particularly strong preferences between IEPs and HSTs, though one criticism I will lay on the former is I find the lighting could be improved to make less harsh, whilst for the latter it would be the squeaky diaphragms between the mk3 coaches.