Yes the high density tombstone seats on the GWR HSTs made for a horrible travelling environment. The IETs are much nicer to sit in, if only they would sort the seat bases!
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State of GWR’s IETs
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This was quite noticeable across the west fleet 150s this week too. A real shame when you’re travelling along the scenic St Ives Bay Line or heading down to Falmouth and the windows are that dirty you might as well not bother to try and take photos through. By comparison, the HSTs actually were all clean and rather presentable!
And this is where the seat debate comes back in. Having travelled along the GWML last week on both IET and HST, the IET was horrible. Rattling panels, rough riding and the bar showing though on the seat all making for a pretty uncomfortable journey. The HSTs I took this week were a lot better, more comfortable both in terms of seating and ride quality, the only issue I encountered with them was a somewhat irritating overload PA system in the set behind 43172 - so loud the speaker was vibrating (not helped by the absolute waffle GWR now puts out through them!). My main issue with them was that they should have been laid out like ScotRails, more tables and a less High Density layout.
Hopefully, over time, they will sort the issues out. Presumably when the HST's came out they had faults as well...although you didn't have online forums like these to comment on back in the day. Presumably, when a refit happens (by the sound of it it needs to happen sooner rather than later), the numerous complaints will be taken into account.
RailWonderer
Established Member
When you are procuring a state of the art new intercity train that will be ordered in bulk for multiple operators and will serve for 30-40 years and will form a big part of the image of British railways, you want to get it absolutely right. It astounds me still that all these problems with the IETs from a comfort perspective and a build quality perspective were not thought out. In 2014 the DfT had little excuse to cut costs everywhere possible with the spec of the IET and the train only represents a short termist mindset at its worst. Fireproofing was a poor excuse for such bad seating and the amount of bumpiness to their ride with the cheaper light bogies adds to their cheaper feel. Every other Western European nation gets their IC spec trains right (mostly).
Lucklily GWR offer well priced first class so I find myself travelling in those half the time to soften the cheap feeling of the IETs and the horrid lighting ambience. The 196s on WMR which are supposed to be a cheaper regional train type feel like a more premium train in comparison.
Lucklily GWR offer well priced first class so I find myself travelling in those half the time to soften the cheap feeling of the IETs and the horrid lighting ambience. The 196s on WMR which are supposed to be a cheaper regional train type feel like a more premium train in comparison.
Anonymous10
Established Member
I'm kind of looking forward to when 197s are in South Wales to try those against an iet
In terms of passenger experience, only the brake smell and I guess the automatic doors ( there was a thread about the HST intro recently ). When they were new they rode fine even rather over the speed limit & the seats were definitely not falling apart after 5 years. I didn't like them much but they weren't this sort of mess.
You're presuming a lot about what will happen - I find it hard to believe anything will get done beyond meeting any minimum requirements.
Pete_uk
Established Member
They might get a bit of a mid life upgrade...
...money permitting
...money permitting
PG
Established Member
Yes it would be interesting to know what the contract specifies, in terms of refit/upgrade. I rather get the feeling that if there isn't provision in the contract for it then it won't be happening...
irish_rail
On Moderation
True but at some point the seat bases will surely be completely unviable, it is the seating that needs urgently addressing, and if that means diverting money from elsewhere then that's what needs to be done. Paying customers cannot expect to sit for up to 5 hours on a metal seat base with virtually no padding left .
PG
Established Member
I haven't been on a GWR 800 or 802 for a couple of years so I (thankfully) haven't experienced the current state of the seating. Is the state poor enough that it may cause injury? Sad as it is, it may be that the only way this gets sorted is if the legal profession become involved. At the end of the day money talks!
Was on a few of them today, one of them was a 5 car 800, the worst by far.
The base cushions on the seats had gone floppy, which means the edge is really soft, with a metal bar right down the middle.
Because the cushions are completely wrecked, the padding has actually turned to dust, and is now slowly falling out of some seats, collecting in an orange pile on the floor.
The base cushions on the seats had gone floppy, which means the edge is really soft, with a metal bar right down the middle.
Because the cushions are completely wrecked, the padding has actually turned to dust, and is now slowly falling out of some seats, collecting in an orange pile on the floor.
I was on an extremely rough riding IET on Tuesday, the leading unit on the 17:48 Paddington to Carmarthen was jolting so much on the tracks between London and Reading, people in the carriage were visibly concerned.
GWVillager
Member
That was an 802 by the looks of it, they’re usually fine. Odd.
Snow1964
Established Member
Just been announced.
Maintenance contract for 36 GWR class 802s been extended 5 years to 2028
www.globalrailwayreview.com
Maintenance contract for 36 GWR class 802s been extended 5 years to 2028
Bit surprised the maintenance costs are over £1m per week
Great Western Railway extends Class 802 maintenance contract
Hitachi Rail will maintain Great Western Railway's (GWR) West of England fleet of 36 Class 802 Intercity Express Trains until 2028.
irish_rail
On Moderation
I have also found the 5 car 800s to be the worst. This is worrying because it suggests it is a time issue, ie after a certain amount of time (in this case 5 to 6 years) the seat has had it. And that suggests the 802 fleet should begin to fail (in terms of seat padding) in next year or so. (Of course many of the seats have failed but the 5 car 800s seem the most prolific).
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Yes, 5-800 without doubt the grimmest inside.
Externally too but with the others being painted and these in vinyl its unsurprising.
Still far nicer than the Castle sets inside I think, but they need to be treated better.
Externally too but with the others being painted and these in vinyl its unsurprising.
Still far nicer than the Castle sets inside I think, but they need to be treated better.
I do wonder how much Hitachi are getting fined for these faults.
Under the IEP maintenance contract they are actually the ones responsible for fixing these issues at their cost, and all the bodywork damage, window cleanliness, and even the seat cushions, which are specifically mentioned in the standards agreement, are their responsibility.
Every time a train enters service with one of these faults they should be being fined according to the agreement, with a dirty window costing £100 for example, which could quickly add up.
Under the IEP maintenance contract they are actually the ones responsible for fixing these issues at their cost, and all the bodywork damage, window cleanliness, and even the seat cushions, which are specifically mentioned in the standards agreement, are their responsibility.
Every time a train enters service with one of these faults they should be being fined according to the agreement, with a dirty window costing £100 for example, which could quickly add up.
The 802 maintenance contract is a different story, although I would assume they still do get fined. There isn't really anyone else to give the contract to though, so not much GWR can do if Hitachi has decided to just absorb the loss.
Depends on the fault but I think Hitachi are meant to report on handover, or GWR can find faults, and then cleaning is up to GWR to report. No reason they wouldn't though, as reporting does save them money.
QSK19
Member
I must say that, when I travelled on 800310 a few weeks ago, it did look a bit ropy in places. I hope that lessons have been learned for subsequent AT300 builds - been on multiple HT 802s and didn’t see/feel anything untoward.
Nevertheless, as a to-be 810 user, this thread has made me a little suspect of how the 810s will be only a few years into their life!
Nevertheless, as a to-be 810 user, this thread has made me a little suspect of how the 810s will be only a few years into their life!
CapitalStar378
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Ultimately it's a cheaply put together train, don't think subsequent builds post class 800s will be any different, time will tell though.
But my question is why would Hitachi make them on the cheap. While they have their maintenance contract all of the costs, including wear and tear, are their responsibility (Except operator caused damage).
The whole thing puzzles me and I’d be very interested to know who is just absorbing the costs. Either Hitachi have decided the fines are cheaper, or GWR isn’t reporting faults, which makes no sense because if they report them their maintenance bill is cheaper, and therefore the DfT are happy, and their trains are in better condition.
irish_rail
On Moderation
Perhaps, but I'd like to reiterate in my view they are not that bad. Its the seats that really let them down and they could be changed. They are not Hitachis fault they were specified by the Dft. If I where Hitachi id be going to the seat manufacturer (Fainsa?) and asking why on earth the so called cushioning hasn't even lasted 5 years. I spend a lot of time on IETs as a driver, passenger, at low and high speed and I genuinely think they are pretty OK. I don't personally find the ride much worse than a HST, alot of the problem is poor track condition (on the Western anyway).
Wilts Wanderer
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Personally speaking I’ve generally found the ride in the intermediate trailers to be abominable pretty much every single time I‘ve travelled in one, to the point where I now actively avoid the non-powered vehicles. (The driving trailers by comparison are much the same as the powered intermediates. Presumably it is the lightweight inside framed bogies that are not up to the job.)
I'm very much with you on this - the Hitachi inside frame bogie seems to be one of the worst riding lightweight bogies out there, offering both poor ride quality on the IETs and 385. I do wonder if the makeup of the train doesn't help them either, meaning that the vehicle with the lightweight bogie in effect is shafted by the heavier powered vehicles surrounding it, not helped by the stiffness of the couplings (something bought up in the Neville Hill collision IIRC).
On the subject of the IETs, is 800303 currently running around with at least 1 GU switched off? I was travelling on it this morning in the second vehicle heading westwards, which was somewhat noticeably quiet beyond Newbury.
Ah, does the Western have uniquely bad track quality? That explains a lot - I've spent a fair amount of time on LNER Azumas and always found them lovely.
I’m aware that the line between Reading-Taunton suffers from particularly poor ride quality, I think a result from the ground conditions on the line. Last year there were a number of lengthy speed restrictions during summer as a result.
northernbelle
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Indeed - the B&H has had this reputation for many years. It's not helped by the heavy stone trains that hammer it as well.
There are known locations where there are kicks and bumps - the long curve at Somerton on the up and Kintbury crossing on the down to name a couple.
The IETs seem to have the same ride characteristics as every other new rolling stock I've been on recently - absolutely smooth on good track but a harder ride when not. I recently took a journey from Liverpool Street on a 745 - the ride was fine at the lower speeds but became very lively as it increased. Unfortunately the penalty for being kind to the track is that the forces have to go somewhere, and this seems to be back into the passenger saloon!
Wilts Wanderer
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The problem with IET bogies - and those of most modern trains it seems - is that the ride takes far too long to settle down after being ‘excited’ by poor geometry, curvature or pointwork etc. So if you’re riding a route with frequent ’knocks’ then it’s just one continuous nightmare of rattling, bumps and hunting.
Otherwise smooth straight track can also sometimes induce hunting - whether this is a wheel profile defect or stretches of track that is a millimetre or two out of gauge, I have no idea. The very fast run through Hullavington often seems to cause this in my experience.
Otherwise smooth straight track can also sometimes induce hunting - whether this is a wheel profile defect or stretches of track that is a millimetre or two out of gauge, I have no idea. The very fast run through Hullavington often seems to cause this in my experience.
Annetts key
Established Member
The track gauge is permitted to vary between 1432mm and 1438mm.
The wheel profile is supposed to result in the wheel running on the top of the rail on plain line, the flange should not normally touch the side of the rail when running on plain line.
Obviously it may be different for sharp curves or when going over S&C
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