Will Siemens build any more trains for the uk?

[778]

Do you think Siemens will be any more trains for this country or will the class 717 be the last, now that the TOCs prefer the Bombardier or CAF built trains (Aventras and Civitys) instead? I think that the Desiros are better trains than the Electrostars and it is a shame that we did not get an updated version of the Desiros for longer distance services.

The Desiro City trains are suburban trains and not really a successor to the original Desiro family, in the same way that the Aventras are successors to the Electrostars.

 

[superalbs]

Siemens offered the Desiro Verve. It looked quite nice. Nobody bought it.

Here's a document that shows what they look like:

https://assets.new.siemens.com/siemens/assets/api/uuid:aebbea426e33c20d42a549112d10d27b8a91307c/mo-desiro-verve-en-preview.pdf

They seem to resemble a Siemens Mireo (design used in German), crossed with a Desiro City.

 

[FlyingPotato]

Do you think Siemens will be any more trains for this country or will the class 717 be the last, now that the TOCs prefer the Bombardier or CAF built trains (Aventras and Civitys) instead? I think that the Desiros are better trains than the Electrostars and it is a shame that we did not get an updated version of the Desiros for longer distance services.

The Desiro City trains are suburban trains and not really a successor to the original Desiro family, in the same way that the Aventras are successors to the Electrostars.

Aren't they building the new tube for London or does that count as just rapid transit

 

[Trainbike46]

The reality is that siemens have a factory in Goole now, and they certainly wouldn't have opened it if they weren't expecting to get orders to use it

 

[RailWonderer]

Bombardier was building the 379s and 172s at the same time as their S stock trains so it is possible Siemens could build mainline stock at the same time as tube stock if the Goole plant is big enough. I hope we do see it as their quality is second to none besides probably Stadler at the moment. The asking price is known to not been the most competitive and given any future orders will be placed directly by the DfT or GBR it is unfortunately quite unlikely we see new Siemens stock unless the order is very custom. I would like to be proven wrong - maybe we will see an order placed to keep the Goole factory open in between tube orders.

There is a reason why we are starting to see a Hitachi monopoly on IC stock, Bombardier/Alstom on commuter, and CAF on regional with the odd Stadler order - proven platforms are cheaper to order and easier to source parts for and to move round the network when needed.

 

[MarkyT]

I think other manufacturers, including Siemens, need to take a close look at what Stadler is doing regarding level boarding. All new fleets need to achieve this in my opinion and the easiest way in UK is to match vehicle floor height over the majority of the train to existing standard 915mm platform height. European manufacturers all have low/medium floor height models in all market sectors apart from high speed that might be tweaked for UK height like the FLIRTs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think other manufacturers, including Siemens, need to take a close look at what Stadler is doing regarding level boarding. All new fleets need to achieve this in my opinion and the easiest way in UK is to match vehicle floor height over the majority of the train to existing standard 915mm platform height. European manufacturers all have low/medium floor height models in all market sectors apart from high speed that might be tweaked for UK height like the FLIRTs.

If the tenders require it, the manufacturers will deliver it. It's not like they don't all already offer products for platforms well below 915mm for most of Europe - for the UK you're only talking about getting the floor down about 20-30cm or so.

 

[tomuk]

I think other manufacturers, including Siemens, need to take a close look at what Stadler is doing regarding level boarding. All new fleets need to achieve this in my opinion and the easiest way in UK is to match vehicle floor height over the majority of the train to existing standard 915mm platform height. European manufacturers all have low/medium floor height models in all market sectors apart from high speed that might be tweaked for UK height like the FLIRTs.

The difference is that Stadler have the power module car and the other manfucaturers take advantage of the loading guage and either put traction gear on the roof or adopt a double decker design. Neither being easy to adapt for UK system.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The difference is that Stadler have the power module car and the other manfucaturers take advantage of the loading guage and either put traction gear on the roof or adopt a double decker design. Neither being easy to adapt for UK system.

For DMUs, yes. For EMUs it just involves rejigging the power kit a bit, no reason you can't put some of it on the roof, e.g. some trains have the aircon modules on the roof and some have them underneath. Only the Stadler GTW, an older design, uses a power module for an EMU.

For DMUs, a pragmatic design probably just involves building a three-car unit with an unpowered centre car with the bit between the bogies at 960mm* and a central door, with the wheelchair spaces and accessible bog also in that section, a bit like the Swiss did with the Domino EMUs. It might not be too hard for CAF to build such a car to insert into a 195, 196 or 197, for instance, and there'd certainly be a benefit to Northern of extending all theirs to 3s and 4s, the 2s are too short for more or less anything they do.

* I think UK FLIRTs have the floor at 960mm with a very slight step up onto the folding step and from that into the train, but both still small enough for a wheelchair or pram; this is certainly the height used for the Merseyrail units.

 

[Thirteen]

The deep level Tube order will keep the Goole factory busy for at least the next decade. I know they've not been ordered yet but I'm confident the Bakerloo Line will finally get new trains only because the 1972 stock is on its last legs.

 

[Trainbike46]

For DMUs, yes. For EMUs it just involves rejigging the power kit a bit, no reason you can't put some of it on the roof, e.g. some trains have the aircon modules on the roof and some have them underneath. Only the Stadler GTW, an older design, uses a power module for an EMU.

For DMUs, a pragmatic design probably just involves building a three-car unit with an unpowered centre car with the bit between the bogies at 960mm* and a central door, with the wheelchair spaces and accessible bog also in that section, a bit like the Swiss did with the Domino EMUs. It might not be too hard for CAF to build such a car to insert into a 195, 196 or 197, for instance.

* I think UK FLIRTs have the floor at 960mm with a very slight step up onto the folding step and from that into the train, but both still small enough for a wheelchair or pram; this is certainly the height used for the Merseyrail units.

As per the Stadler datasheet, the 755s are also 960mm floor height

 

[Fleetmaster]

There is a reason why we are starting to see a Hitachi monopoly on IC stock, Bombardier/Alstom on commuter, and CAF on regional with the odd Stadler order - proven platforms are cheaper to order and easier to source parts for and to move round the network when neneeded.

I doubt that. If anything, in my experience in SME engineering, the likes of Siemens, maybe Siemens especially, happily let SMEs pay high prices and put up with long lead times, because their clear business preference is seemingly to best serve large customers (and by extension their known suppliers) like railways, in a way that keeps them firmly on side for any new orders.

It's undeniably a good strategy, one that goes a long way to overcoming anything else that makes them less competitive in a high ticket market. It's always baffled me, given the supposed (and I think entirely mythical) German love of the SME tech sector, although I guess it makes sense if all those SMEs have only ever existed to ultimately serve the giant German industrial powers.

That's not really how we do things in the UK. I've no compunction telling Rolls Royce PLC that their problem can wait because for whatever reason they specified Seimens kit but Seimens have only shipped one X5B.92 Doodad to me overnight, Doodads being prohibitively expensive for a guy like me to keep in stock, and as their bad luck would have it, Mom And Pop Phamra Industries Ltd of deepest darkest Nantwich, with a market cap that compares to Rolls Royces petty cash drawer, are more likely to be appreciative of me driving up there overnight to fit it.

Obviously I don't tell RR that, but they no doubt know it already. By all accounts RR will soon go to the wall or be dismembered, with ironically some bits perhaps taken by Seimens, but I am quite sure it's nothing to do with me. I do my best to keep GB plc afloat, but this entire country seems to absolutely hate the entire concept of private enterprise.

 

[tomuk]

As per the Stadler datasheet, the 755s are also 960mm floor height

And platform modifications in East Anglia, Merseyside and Wales have\are taking place.

 

[Meerkat]

With my cynics hat on I reckon Siemens will get more (needed) tube orders to keep it open, whereas the other orders will be spread around to keep the other factories open.
Greater DfT control makes this more likely.
A union funded Labour government would make it even more likely still.
I see Stadler struggling to get any sizeable orders unless they can make their UK content greater value than UK assembly (dunno if post Brexit trade issues make that less likely??)

 

[Thirteen]

With my cynics hat on I reckon Siemens will get more (needed) tube orders to keep it open, whereas the other orders will be spread around to keep the other factories open.
Greater DfT control makes this more likely.
A union funded Labour government would make it even more likely still.
I see Stadler struggling to get any sizeable orders unless they can make their UK content greater value than UK assembly (dunno if post Brexit trade issues make that less likely??)

I reckon Stadler will try and secure the contract with TfL to replace the CR4000s.

 

[XAM2175]

For DMUs, a pragmatic design probably just involves building a three-car unit with an unpowered centre car with the bit between the bogies at 960mm* and a central door, with the wheelchair spaces and accessible bog also in that section, a bit like the Swiss did with the Domino EMUs. It might not be too hard for CAF to build such a car to insert into a 195, 196 or 197, for instance, and there'd certainly be a benefit to Northern of extending all theirs to 3s and 4s, the 2s are too short for more or less anything they do.

There is a bit of a complication in retrofitting a trailer into DMUs in that they don't usually have that much spare power, but it's a sound idea otherwise. Not a problem if it's allowed-for from the start, obviously (as Ansaldo did with DSB's IC4s).

 

[jackot]

The only order I could see at the moment happening would be from Southeastern. Maybe an updated Desiro City, or maybe even the Verve. It's a shame really seeing how great their quality is.

In the longer term, they could offer a platform for sprinter/turbo replacement for GWR and other operators, but they would have to put up a pretty big fight against Stadler; not necessarily on price (both tend to sway towards more expensive offerings); but more on the overall bimode package and level boarding as mentioned above, considering the latter will likely be part of the tender.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a bit of a complication in retrofitting a trailer into DMUs in that they don't usually have that much spare power, but it's a sound idea otherwise. Not a problem if it's allowed-for from the start, obviously (as Ansaldo did with DSB's IC4s).

You could certainly power wise do it with a 185 though an odd coach would be harder to integrate and would look a bit Class 455.

You probably could with the 195 etc, they have a fair bit more power than Sprinters and a transmission more able to put it down in a way as to accelerate quickly. Might also be possible to add some sort of battery hybrid tech to it to store braking energy to use to offset the power to weight loss (my mate's 1.0 litre mild hybrid Focus goes like absolute stink) but then you're adding significant complexity rather than just a trailer vehicle.

 

[tomuk]

You could certainly power wise do it with a 185 though an odd coach would be harder to integrate and would look a bit Class 455.

You probably could with the 195 etc, they have a fair bit more power than Sprinters and a transmission more able to put it down in a way as to accelerate quickly. Might also be possible to add some sort of battery hybrid tech to it to store braking energy to use to offset the power to weight loss (my mate's 1.0 litre mild hybrid Focus goes like absolute stink) but then you're adding significant complexity rather than just a trailer vehicle.

Rolls Royce MTU will happily supply you with a drop in hybrid powerpack for the 19x

 

[Thirteen]

I wonder if Siemens will try and get the contract for Northern Line and Jubilee Line stock replacement when the time comes? Assuming that the NTfL has a successful rollout on the Piccadilly Line which will likely lead to the options for the other lines being exercised then it'd be a no brainer to keep them on for the rest of the Deep Level Tube Lines.

 

[RobShipway]

I wonder if Siemens will try and get the contract for Northern Line and Jubilee Line stock replacement when the time comes? Assuming that the NTfL has a successful rollout on the Piccadilly Line which will likely lead to the options for the other lines being exercised then it'd be a no brainer to keep them on for the rest of the Deep Level Tube Lines.

It would make sense for London Underground where possible to have a common fleet with it's tube stock as you have with the S7 & S8 stock.

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder if Siemens will try and get the contract for Northern Line and Jubilee Line stock replacement when the time comes?

That could be in the late 2040s based on the longevity of other TfL rolling stock. A bit too far away to speculate on.

 

[Snow1964]

I wonder if Siemens will try and get the contract for Northern Line and Jubilee Line stock replacement when the time comes? Assuming that the NTfL has a successful rollout on the Piccadilly Line which will likely lead to the options for the other lines being exercised then it'd be a no brainer to keep them on for the rest of the Deep Level Tube Lines.

Whilst that could happen long term, the Jubilee and Northern line replacement probably won't be ordered for at least 15 years, with delivery nearer 18-25 years time

I think Bakerloo follow on (to Piccadilly) order is a given (and I wouldn't rule out some of the extra trains for 27tph on Piccadilly being diverted to Bakerloo, so need fewer extra trains)

But still leaves huge gaps between batches (even if Central line replacement happens), so really if Siemens continues to build at Google is going to have to come down to if they can fill the lines in about 5-10 years time (during which might be just some Bakerloo trains, as Central line is looking like stuck until after 2030)

So need to consider what might be built about 2027-2032 (give or take a year), and only realistic UK option is replacing remaining fleets from 1980s to early 1990s. That gives us 15x diesel, 16x turbo fleet, Chiltern 168s, SE London fleet, and some Scottish trains. Out of that should probably be aiming for a regional bi-mode to replace all those diesels either directly or by displacing 170s etc.

Probably a market for about 150-200 5car regional bi-modes replacing all the 158, 159, 165, 166, 168 fleets plus displacing XC 170 fleet, and possibly some of the voyagers. No point chasing the electric fleets, not big enough unless mass fleet renewal in SE London is guaranteed.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Do you think Siemens will be any more trains for this country or will the class 717 be the last, now that the TOCs prefer the Bombardier or CAF built trains (Aventras and Civitys) instead?

Northern want to be Sprinter free. GWR are undertaking a plan to replace their diesel fleet. Southern are expected to give up their 171s to EMR and they don't have a replacement. ScotRail are implementing a plan to replace several members of their fleet. At some point, SWR and EMR are going to have to replace their Sprinters.

Once the DfT stop penny pinching, expect several invitation to tenders to appear.

 

[JonathanH]

Southern are expected to give up their 171s to EMR and they don't have a replacement.

They aren't. They are only now due to release 171201. EMR took on the TfW 170s instead.

Northern want to be Sprinter free.

Where is the funding for that?

GWR are undertaking a plan to replace their diesel fleet.

Seems that may have been pushed back.

ScotRail are implementing a plan to replace several members of their fleet.

Yes

At some point, SWR and EMR are going to have to replace their Sprinters.

2030s

Once the DfT stop penny pinching, expect several invitation to tenders to appear.

Are they 'penny pinching' or just reflecting the reality that new fleets now cost real money, with the change in the economic circumstances?

 

[Thirteen]

I agree that the Northern Line and Jubilee Line replacements are at least a decade or so away, the biggest priority is getting the 24 stock rolled out to the Piccadilly Line in 2025. I wonder if TfL are banking on a change of Government to get the necessary funding for the rest of the DLT as well as replacing the CR4000s which won't cost as much but still an expensive undertaking.

 

[Neptune]

Where is the funding for that?

The bids for the replacement of Northern’s 15x fleet is quite well advanced (commenced in January) with a surprise leading bidder at the moment. I can’t say anymore than that.

 

[LOL The Irony]

They aren't. They are only now due to release 171201. EMR took on the TfW 170s instead.

I see.

Where is the funding for that?

They were going to put out an ITT but lockdowns put pay to that. First units were supposed to start arriving either this year or next year. However, this still doesn't avoid the elephant in the room that Northern's oldest trains are 39 years old (the 2 150 prototypes). The 155s aren't far behind and the 156s pretty close again and have more holes than a colander. Northern at least have the newest 158s* but even they're over 30.

Seems that may have been pushed back.

To when? Goole is going to be pretty busy for a few years, with what Wikipedia is saying, the last 2024 stock is going to be delivered in around 2027 at present.

2030s

Yes, your point is?

Are they 'penny pinching' or just reflecting the reality that new fleets now cost real money, with the change in the economic circumstances?

New trains are good PR, no matter what way you look at it. A new government could easily result in the current mantra being changed.

The bids for the replacement of Northern’s 15x fleet is quite well advanced (commenced in January) with a surprise leading bidder at the moment. I can’t say anymore than that.

Why do I get the feeling it's Alstombardier? Oh well, as long as they aren't another soulless a-train.

 

[RobShipway]

To when? Goole is going to be pretty busy for a few years, with what Wikipedia is saying, the last 2024 stock is going to be delivered in around 2027 at present.

As has been stated previously in the thread, depending on the size of the factory in Goole, they may be able to produce another train alongside the 2024 stock. It was done by Hitachi in the form of the IET trains and class 385 trains. From what I have seen of the Goole factory and from diagrams, it seems to be of no different size to Hitachi's factory.

 

[tomuk]

As has been stated previously in the thread, depending on the size of the factory in Goole, they may be able to produce another train alongside the 2024 stock. It was done by Hitachi in the form of the IET trains and class 385 trains. From what I have seen of the Goole factory and from diagrams, it seems to be of no different size to Hitachi's factory.

To quote Siemens

Phased development of the 67-acre site is now underway.

With an investment potential of up to £200 million, this new factory could create as many as 700 skilled jobs

It is purely a train assembly site and currently a small one with lots of space to grow.