RMT strike action

[Watershed]

In terms of attendance, Eurovision is fairly small - 6,000 spectators at each show, the disruption will be to people going home after the Thursday semi, and the two shows on Saturday.

So those who can't go will be re-selling their tickets, and there will be plenty of locals who will snap them up.

(I have a ticket for the Saturday afternoon show, which I'll now have to sell back, I had pre-booked a hotel for three nights in Wigan (non-refundable), and Advance rail tickets from the south coast to Wigan, out on the Friday which will get refunded, and back on the Monday which won't. So not the happiest of days for me!)

As long as you booked your two Advances together, you'll be able to get a refund on both (even the non-affected leg).

 

[footprints]

Rail Delivery Group response:

“We are blindsided by the RMT executive’s announcement - nothing has changed in the offer agreed two weeks ago by the RMT leadership in the negotiating room.

“The RMT are negotiating in bad faith, again denying their members a say on a fair pay deal, needlessly disrupting the lives of millions of our passengers, and undermining the viability of an industry critical to Britain’s economy.”

 

[brick60000]

Rail Delivery Group response

Whatever your view on this whole debacle, the RMT (and ASLEF) do seem to have opened themselves up to criticism here.

If it is really such a bad offer, then why not let the members reinforce that message.

I’ve not seen a single good explanation for why not.

Other than “the mood is deafening” - many members on here in the union seem to disagree and feel disenfranchised as a result.

A common response to the above is to vote with your feet & leave the union. However, that’s of no personal use in a collective bargaining grade where, ultimately, what the union says goes….

 

[Master29]

Is there a "They should grow up and accept what is given" thread? Many haven't had much of a pay rise in years.

Old chestnut season already.

 

[DanNCL]

As does the fact that Putin will somehow be rubbing his hands because a strike has been called.

There were multiple Russian cyber attacks on last year's Eurovision. This year will be even more of a target with it being a Ukrainian win last time, even if we're hosting it for them. It isn't so far fetched to think that Putin will be pleased at any disruption to this event.

Why will it cause a diplomatic incident?

The event will take place and be well attended. Merseyrail services will run as intended. Any dignitaries will either be put in in the top Liverpool hotels or some country hotel in leafy Cheshire and taken to the event by road. The acts and comperes aren't going to be making their own way on a Wigan - Lime St stopper. Basically, apart from the people attending who wanted to save a few bob by staying in hotels miles away nobody else will be affected or even notice.

It 'could' rather than 'will', hopefully there'll be no issue.
Of course the performers themselves won't be travelling by train, or at least not on the days they're performing anyway.

The issue is if there's a percieved issue for the 3,000 Ukrainian nationals who had Eurovision tickets held back for them getting to the event, even if it's a non issue in practice. Ukraine can be unreasonable with some of their demands on other countries when it comes to events such as Eurovision, it feels like they expect everyone to do everything for such events their way just because they've been invaded by their neighbour. And unlike with any other country that tried to do this, it wouldn't go down too well if the British response to such an issue would be to tell Ukraine to do one.

Any issue in this sense wouldn't be an issue for the public but it could fan the flames of the already raging fire the DFT have against the RMT.

 

[CFRAIL]

Every other way that the government has handled the country over the past 8 years has caused plenty of other diplomatic fallouts, what's one more amongst friends?

THIS!

 

[Snow1964]

You cannot terminate a dispute until the discussions about it have concluded.

Not totally true in all situations
The disputed part might become superseded even if the overall package is not complete.

Therefore the dispute is ended, but negotiations continue on remaining points.

The RMT appear to have taken the position that cannot move onto agreeing part 2 unless we (RMT) keep a strike option open, although their phrasing seems to leave it open regarding if agreeing part 1 is conditional on the outcome of part 2 negotiations concluding.

They have worded it as a circular argument that 2 cannot be settled without 1, and also 1 has to stay open until 2 is settled. In other words will never be settled until both 1 and 2 are agreed simultaneously. Not sure if that was what was intended, or RMT worded the statement incorrectly in haste to get it out.

 

[gazzaa2]

Whatever your view on this whole debacle, the RMT (and ASLEF) do seem to have opened themselves up to criticism here.

If it is really such a bad offer, then why not let the members reinforce that message.

I’ve not seen a single good explanation for why not.

Other than “the mood is deafening” - many members on here in the union seem to disagree and feel disenfranchised as a result.

A common response to the above is to vote with your feet & leave the union. However, that’s of no personal use in a collective bargaining grade where, ultimately, what the union says goes….

And what's the rush? Why not re-ballot members, get your mandate and then call a wave of strikes?

 

[Geeves]

There seems to be somewhat of a disconnect between regular members of the RMT and the union reps and NEC members at least from my fellow bottom of the pile members. I think a vote would be welcomed (on the current proposals) if nothing else to judge the real feelings on the ground. If it's rejected as badly as they say then so be it.

Votes are already in for the next strikes, ballot closes in a few days.

 

[brick60000]

And what's the rush? Why not re-ballot members, get your mandate and then call a wave of strikes?

A reballot is ongoing and the offer has already been rejected.

Even a facade of using that as a referendum is shattered by rejecting it under the assumption of the result the union wants.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The issue is if there's a percieved issue for the 3,000 Ukrainian nationals who had Eurovision tickets held back for them getting to the event, even if it's a non issue in practice. Ukraine can be unreasonable with some of their demands on other countries when it comes to events such as Eurovision, it feels like they expect everyone to do everything for such events their way just because they've been invaded by their neighbour. And unlike with any other country that tried to do this, it wouldn't go down too well if the British response to such an issue would be to tell Ukraine to do one.

Are you claiming that a country we have supplied with £millions of weapons, reportedly assisted by sending in special forces personnel, and have given refuge to thousands of their citizens are going to create a diplomatic incident over some jolly sing-a-long? And if they do why should we care?

 

[falcon]

From the RMT:

What this amounts to is giving up your right to take industrial action indefinitely for a 5% /£1750 pay rise.

Insane! No union could agree to that!

 

[footprints]

What this amounts to is giving up your right to take industrial action indefinitely for a 5% /£1750 pay rise.

Insane! No union could agree to that!

They haven't been asked to agree to that.

 

[Parjon]

I'm disgusted with the RMT's move. This is a day when the country is showcasing solidarity with people in a horrific mortal situation, which puts petty squabbles about pay rises in the shade.

The disruption is bad enough, and cruel, but more than this it will be a propaganda goal for the evil forces behind Ukraine's suffering. Frankly I am suspicious of the intent.

I am writing to Mayor Rotheram demanding that Liverpool's politicians condemn the RMT and declare it unworthy of the city's political backing which it hitherto received unless they change the date. Ahead of May election, I will be urging others to use their vote against Labour should they choose to stay silent.

 

[Dougal2345]

I'm disgusted with the RMT's move. This is a day when the country is showcasing solidarity with people in a horrific mortal situation, which puts petty squabbles about pay rises in the shade.

The disruption is bad enough, and cruel, but more than this it will be a propaganda goal for the evil forces behind Ukraine's suffering. Frankly I am suspicious of the intent.

Lynch has certainly expressed some bizarre justifications for Putin's invasion in the past... It's not difficult to put two and two together here.

But what seems mean spirited about both these strikes is the way they target events that are essentially fun - music and football. Is it my imagination, or did strikes used to focus on disrupting business? A rail strike on a weekday, difficulty getting to work... Unpleasant yes, but you soldier on through it. But now they stop you enjoying your free time on Saturdays, stop you getting to the events you enjoy....

 

[Parjon]

Honestly, I don't care about being affected work or leisure compared to this situation.

I find it wicked and despicable to damage such an important moment of true solidarity of humanity against evil.

 

[778]

Will the ASLEF strike on the Friday have a knock on effect for the following day? There are usually more trains running on RMT strike days than ASLEF ones. Will the signallers and maintanence workers not being on strike this time, mean more services will run?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

In the past RMT strikes services have still been running, Network Rail not being in dispute means everything that wants to run (in normal timetable) will be able to.

Northern have still ran services through Liverpool - Manchester - Airport
I don't know what Avanti do run but it's certainly not nothing at all.
TfW's Chester-Liverpool will likely also be running.

No clue about LNWR, and TPE can't even run trains on a good day.

Will the ASLEF strike on the Friday have a knock on effect for the following day?

It may possibly lead to some trains being out of place, although I don't think many trains will be needed on the Saturday with whatever strike service can be cobbled together.

 

[matthewjohnson]

Honestly, I don't care about being affected work or leisure compared to this situation.

I find it wicked and despicable to damage such an important moment of true solidarity of humanity against evil.

If you listen to the media (particularly Radio 2 above all others) you wouldn't know there was a Ukraine link. It's all "UK hosting Eurovision" with no mention of why

 

[pokemonsuper9]

If you listen to the media (particularly Radio 2 above all others) you wouldn't know there was a Ukraine link. It's all "UK hosting Eurovision" with no mention of why

Indeed, before here I had no clue either.
To me "singing competition disrupted by train strike" isn't front page news.
Train strikes are just something we'll probably have to live with for a while and I think they'll eventually just be considered the same way rail replacement busses will.

 

[Parjon]

Indeed, before here I had no clue either.
To me "singing competition disrupted by train strike" isn't front page news.

What's on the front page of your newspaper isn't relevant versus the message sent out around the world. The UK hosting for Ukraine is big news, it is a show watched by 300m, and it IS important that the UK makes the most of the opportunity to make the point of solidarity.

It's hard to believe that the same people behind this despicable undermining of that have the temerity to use the S word themselves, and demand it of others.

They are not worthy of it.

 

[43066]

I find it wicked and despicable to damage such an important moment of true solidarity of humanity against evil.

It’s a Eurovision Song Contest for gods sake - and as we were reminded above many of the Ukrainians didn’t even want it held here.

Truly pathetic to try to attack the RMT and equate then with Putin supporters when the song contest has nothing to do with the war. People are trying to fight for their livelihoods here, they don’t have time to indulge in virtue signalling about a war a thousand miles away - it might also surprise you to learn that there’s plenty of “evil” happening elsewhere in the world, too, but strangely nobody seems to care about any of that.

If you listen to the media (particularly Radio 2 above all others) you wouldn't know there was a Ukraine link. It's all "UK hosting Eurovision" with no mention of why

Indeed.

 

[falcon]

They haven't been asked to agree to that.

That what this means: From RMT as posted earlier.

Quote:
Astonishingly, the RDG confirmed that the proposed Year One payment of 5% or £1750 is dependent on our dispute being formally terminated and no further action being taken. This would mean having to move into stage two discussions regarding changes to working practices and terms and conditions without an industrial action mandate being in place, leaving the Union dis-armed and leaving members vulnerable in the face of detrimental proposals and a very poor pay offer.
End Quote.

You can't take industrial action if you have agreed to take the 5%/1750 pay offer on the bases of the above.

 

[Annetts key]

I'm disgusted with the RMT's move. This is a day when the country is showcasing solidarity with people in a horrific mortal situation, which puts petty squabbles about pay rises in the shade.

The disruption is bad enough, and cruel, but more than this it will be a propaganda goal for the evil forces behind Ukraine's suffering. Frankly I am suspicious of the intent.

I am writing to Mayor Rotheram demanding that Liverpool's politicians condemn the RMT and declare it unworthy of the city's political backing which it hitherto received unless they change the date. Ahead of May election, I will be urging others to use their vote against Labour should they choose to stay silent.

Do you seriously think that the RMT, a union that fights and campaigns against discrimination is intentionally striking to help “the evil forces” with a “propaganda goal”?

In a busy month, any strike action is likely to hit some event somewhere.

In terms of the wider railway, the Eurovision is a relatively small event, so may not have even been an important consideration by the union.

 

[ModernRailways]

What's on the front page of your newspaper isn't relevant versus the message sent out around the world. The UK hosting for Ukraine is big news, it is a show watched by 300m, and it IS important that the UK makes the most of the opportunity to make the point of solidarity.

It's hard to believe that the same people behind this despicable undermining of that have the temerity to use the S word themselves, and demand it of others.

They are not worthy of it.

Do you really think that the headline news in Germany, as an example, is going to be something to do with the trains and Eurovision. If it’s about Eurovision then it’ll be about Eurovision, the winners, losers and maybe the Russian invasion/war. They’re certainly not going to be headlining our railway just as we don’t tend to headline when they have significant strikes which can have huge impacts (air traffic control as an example). If anything it would be headline news for how much of a mess this country is in and would be more of a general ‘broken Britain’ type of thing, critical of government rather than the workers fighting for what’s right - something mainland Europeans are much better at as is evident in France.

Let’s be real here though the TOCs operating around Liverpool were already not advertising rail as a significant mode of transport alongside the event because they knew that once it’s finished the last trains will have already gone or the trains still booked to depart after the end would be unsuitable for dealing with the potential volume.

 

[Russel]

Train strikes are just something we'll probably have to live with for a while and I think they'll eventually just be considered the same way rail replacement busses will.

And once the strikes start to become considered the same as a rail replacement bus, they become pointless.

 

[142blue]

Curious what northern will choose to run on an RMT strike day

Place your bets

I'm going for nothing above and beyond the previous TOC/NR dates

 

[rmt4ever]

Good luck to all the striking rail workers. The British public support you and stand by you. We have to defeat this ridiculous government.

 

[newtownmgr]

I'm interested as to the 'diplomatic fallout' that could occur. Seems a bit far fetched to me

especially over some overrated singing contest.

 

[Snow1964]

Good luck to all the striking rail workers. The British public support you and stand by you. We have to defeat this ridiculous government.

What a strange statement.
You cannot assume all the public support strikes

In this country we get rid of Governments by voting for someone else which is why there is a maximum of 5 years old.