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No the Thameslink services still call at Redhill and East Croydon. It only affects Clapham Junction of the intermediate Stations previously served.
Clapham Junction still has direct services to Preston Park and Hove with lots more capacity than before in Hoves case.
Thameslink services from Brighton don't serve Redhill, so you do need to change at Gatwick and that has been the case for a while now.
Am I right in thinking the premium fare for GatEx doesn't apply for tickets from Brighton to Victoria and the fare is only applied for tickets from Gatwick to Victoria for Gatwick Express. I guess GatEx fares from Brighton only look premium due to the cheaper 'Thameslink only' fares sitting alongside them?
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Stopping the Gatwick Express-branded services at Clapham would be a solution, if paths permit (what's the next departure from Victoria behind the xx00 and xx30?)
Behind the xx:59 (xx:00 as you've written it) is the xx:05 to Portsmouth and Bognor Regis and behind the xx:29 (xx:30) is the xx:35 to Southampton and Bognor Regis.
Behind the xx:59 (xx:00 as you've written it) is the xx:05 to Portsmouth and Bognor Regis and behind the xx:29 (xx:30) is the xx:35 to Southampton and Bognor Regis.
OK thanks. Sorry - last time I looked they were xx00 and xx30, must have been a previous timetable. Interesting the perfect clockface (00,15,30,45) on Gatwick Express has been lost, wonder what the reason for this is.
As for the path, that's 6 minutes - I don't think a Clapham stop incurs much of a penalty, as non-stop trains have to go slowly through it due to the curves anyhow, but even if it's 2 mins, that would still leave the following services 4 6 (sorry!) mins behind by East Croydon. Presumably paths south of East Croydon might cause a problem?
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As always its a compromise. With the new service patterns there's a lot more badly needed off peak capacity from London to Brighton and both Coastway routes. The West Coastway gets direct off peak services to Preston Park, Hassocks and Burgess Hill. The whole timetable is more robust because splitting/ joining trains don't have to be overtaken by a fast service at Haywards heath to maintain line capacity. Clapham Junction passengers have a more frequent service to Haywards Heath where its a same/ cross platform interchange for a frequent service to Brighton.
its never going to change back.
"Never" is a big word. Timetables are not set in stone in perpetuity and circumstances change.
I'm sure, 10 years ago, some would claim that Guildford would "never" lose its clockface 15 mins service to and from Waterloo, Farnborough would "never" lose two fast services per hour to Waterloo, and Reading would "never" lose 2tph to Birmingham, but (sadly) in all three cases it's happened.
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Nobody has to use the 700s, you can use the GatEx service. You get a lower fare for using Thameslink, which is in principle* fair when you consider the lower standard of accommodation therein.
That could be seen as a retrograde step. In the 80s you could have chosen from CIGs, VEPs and (early in the 80s) HAPs/CAPs on this route, with the CIGs generally seen as the most suitable for long-distance travel, due to lower-density seating.
Likewise in the 90s you could have chosen between 442s, CIGs, CEPs, VEPs and even 159s from Waterloo-Southampton, with the 442s generally seen as the premier offering.
In neither case did you pay a premium for travelling on more "express-style" stock.
That could be seen as a retrograde step. In the 80s you could have chosen from CIGs, VEPs and (early in the 80s) HAPs/CAPs on this route, with the CIGs generally seen as the most suitable for long-distance travel, due to lower-density seating.
Likewise in the 90s you could have chosen between 442s, CIGs, CEPs, VEPs and even 159s from Waterloo-Southampton, with the 442s generally seen as the premier offering.
In neither case did you pay a premium for travelling on more "express-style" stock.
GATEX was proper Intercity Mk 3s hauled by 73s during the 80s and early 90s, so there’s definitely a long established precedent on the route for passengers paying more for premium stock (of course in those days Gatwick was a focus for a lot of transatlantic business air travel, which it isn’t any longer).
Arguably the mk3 based 442s used on the route more recently were also “premium”, certainly when compared to the knackered 319s, and even the much newer 377s, 387s and 700s.
Of all its previous incarnations I expect most would agree that the current service offers passengers by far the lowest additional value for the premium paid. The red 387s are barely any better specified than the alternatives, and will often be full of passengers going to (or coming from) stations south of Gatwick. The service is a shadow of its former self, the premium price makes no real sense for bucket and spade easyJet passengers who dominate Gatwick these days, so there’s surely a good case for folding it into the rest of GTR so that stock (and drivers) can be utilised more widely.
Perhaps this would have happened already if it wasn’t for Covid temporarily reducing overcrowding on the route, and the fact it fleeces a few unsuspecting tourists for more than they might otherwise pay, which will appeal to the DfT!
I suspect the issue is that xx02/32 ex VIC are still available paths in the timetable (along with xx15/45 and a CLJ stop on the Gatex would foul those up. However, as things stand that isn't relevant and in principle the stop could be made on the Down - on the Up it would cause a knock-on delay to the Arun Valley trains.
There is of course the other issue of keeping East Croydon passengers off them AT CLJ - after all, trains from P13 have all been first stop ECR for about 30 years (since the Arun Valley service was diverted via Gatwick)! Not insuperable of course.
I'm not sure they are. The Caterham / Tattenham peak service from Victoria, which most recently occupied that path, has an infinitesimal chance of ever being restored.
xx02/xx32 can only run to the slow lines at East Croydon as Bedford to Brighton (xx19) is in the way on the fast side of East Croydon, and even then, there isn't much gap between the Horsham (dep xx17) and Uckfield (dep xx22) services on the slow, particularly with platform 5 now blocked by the Tulse Hill terminator (dep xx22).
I suspect the issue is that xx02/32 ex VIC are still available paths in the timetable (along with xx15/45 and a CLJ stop on the Gatex would foul those up. However, as things stand that isn't relevant and in principle the stop could be made on the Down - on the Up it would cause a knock-on delay to the Arun Valley trains.
There is of course the other issue of keeping East Croydon passengers off them AT CLJ - after all, trains from P13 have all been first stop ECR for about 30 years (since the Arun Valley service was diverted via Gatwick)! Not insuperable of course.
At risk of going slightly off-topic, I remember about 40 years ago, for a couple of years on Saturdays only, you could get a non-stop service to Gatwick Airport from Platform 13.
At risk of going slightly off-topic, I remember about 40 years ago, for a couple of years on Saturdays only, you could get a non-stop service to Gatwick Airport from Platform 13.
Yes, my 1981 timetable suggests that there were services from Victoria to Gatwick on Saturdays which stopped only at Clapham Junction to pick up. The following Littlehampton service didn't call at Clapham Junction as it was non-stop from Victoria to East Croydon.
That they are, which is why if you are willing to have a legal fight of some kind you can use Thameslink Only tickets on GatEx. Others on here will be better placed than me to advise on the implications of doing so. I'd not do it, I've not got the appetite for the hassle over such relatively small sums, but some enjoy it.
You‘d be very lucky to get past the GatEx gateline at London Victoria.
As a Brighton resident, I had enough trouble trying to get them to accept a Thameslink Only outboundary Travelcard when there was ticket acceptance, insisting that the ticket acceptance only applied to Southern services!
Am I right in thinking the premium fare for GatEx doesn't apply for tickets from Brighton to Victoria and the fare is only applied for tickets from Gatwick to Victoria for Gatwick Express. I guess GatEx fares from Brighton only look premium due to the cheaper 'Thameslink only' fares sitting alongside them?
Correct - although the way they implemented this is in my opinion is a bit lacking considering that Super Off-Peak Day Returns from Brighton to London Victoria are routed Any Permitted but from London Road (Brighton) (and other East Coastway stations Brighton - Lewes exclusive) they’re routed Not Gatwick Express!
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Unfortunately, this isn’t possible due to pathing reasons. You could call at East Croydon similar to the 2021 Brighton Southern service that ran in the GatEx paths (which stopped at East Croydon but not Clapham Junction), but Clapham Junction has been discussed previously on this forum:
The signalling at Clapham Junction requires one of the service groups to run non stop through the station to allow the maximum number of trains to run.
In our quest to look at capacity issues and opportunities in Sussex we come to part 5 - the present and future of Clapham Junction
www.londonreconnections.com
The problem with the tracks through Clapham Junction fast platforms is that they cannot handle any more trains. During the peak period there are roughly 16tph and of those four are Gatwick Express trains that don’t stop there. With the current signalling this is about all that can be achieved. So what is to be done? There are some minor improvements that have been and can be made. Beyond that Network Rail currently has two ideas as to how to solve this. Unfortunately one option is expensive and the other one is very expensive.
The current compromise of running Gatwick Express trains through to Brighton is a reasonable compromise which keeps the airport happy although does lead to a poor set of services to the Brighton line in the morning peak.
I'm not sure they are. The Caterham / Tattenham peak service from Victoria, which most recently occupied that path, has an infinitesimal chance of ever being restored.
Again never say never. Circumstances change, it's certainly conceivable these two paths (xx02/xx32) might be used for something in the future on the slow lines south of East Croydon, in the peaks at least.
The post-Covid strangeness and economic crisis can't last forever. At some point, presumably (hopefully?) the economy will recover and there will be the need for these kinds of services again.
Am I right in thinking the premium fare for GatEx doesn't apply for tickets from Brighton to Victoria and the fare is only applied for tickets from Gatwick to Victoria for Gatwick Express.
Again never say never. Circumstances change, it's certainly conceivable these two paths (xx02/xx32) might be used for something in the future on the slow lines south of East Croydon, in the peaks at least.
If that’s the case, then wouldn’t it be better to just restore the December 2019 timetable (with 4tph Victoria - Brighton) when the time and demand comes?
Yes, my 1981 timetable suggests that there were services from Victoria to Gatwick on Saturdays which stopped only at Clapham Junction to pick up. The following Littlehampton service didn't call at Clapham Junction as it was non-stop from Victoria to East Croydon.
One strange feature of these early 80s timetables on the Brighton Line was the difference between the Mon-Fri and the Sat timetable.
Mon-Fri, the "Rapid City Link" services (forerunners of Gatwick Express) consisted of 4VEG units attached to Brighton (x2), Bognor and Horsham services, detached at Gatwick.
Saturday, the Brighton "Rapid City Link" services did not run, with those two paths occupied by a Victoria-Gatwick shuttle, calling at Clapham only, as you say. The Brighton stoppers instead consisted of one service from London Bridge and one Gatwick-Brighton stopper, according to the Nov 1981 ABC timetable and May 1982 GBPTT on Timetable World.
I also have the CWN from May 1981 which was different to Nov, I think this was related to East Croydon area engineering works. In that, the Gatwick shuttle still existed (VEGs with a few VEPs), while the Brighton stoppers were a half-hourly almost-all-stations service from London Bridge via Crystal Palace and Tulse Hill to Brighton. These were formed of 8-car formations, with 9 diagrams: 6 of which were 8VEP, one was 8CIG, one was 4CIG/4HAP and the final one was 4CIG/4BIG (but with no buffet, I'm sure).
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If that’s the case, then wouldn’t it be better to just restore the December 2019 timetable (with 4tph Victoria - Brighton) when the time and demand comes?
Southern’s fleet is very stretched, so there will be no improvements, only compromises. I would personally convert the current GX Victoria-Brighton into Southern and stop at Clapham Junction and East Croydon
The post-Covid strangeness and economic crisis can't last forever. At some point, presumably (hopefully?) the economy will recover and there will be the need for these kinds of services again.
It is no longer 'post-Covid strangeness'. It is the new order, and nothing to do with the economy.
The people of the Caterham and Tattenham Corner branches are adequately catered for by the trains to London Bridge because many of them have decided that home working suits them fine. In much the same way, there is sufficient capacity between London and Brighton on six trains each hour.
If that’s the case, then wouldn’t it be better to just restore the December 2019 timetable (with 4tph Victoria - Brighton) when the time and demand comes?
Is it though? Personally I dislike the way the world has gone since Covid (in the sense that people are, IMX, experiencing greater isolation and less socialisation), and I'm sure I'm not alone. That said, I am prepared to give things slack while we are still dealing with the economic aftershocks of Covid and we still have the situation in Ukraine and its consequences to deal with. But that is a topic for the "General Discussion" thread so will stop there
Is it though? Personally I dislike the way the world has gone since Covid (in the sense that people are, IMX, experiencing greater isolation and less socialisation), and I'm sure I'm not alone - though I am prepared to give things slack while we are still dealing with the economic aftershocks of Covid and we still have the situation in Ukraine and its consequences to deal with. But that is a topic for the "General Discussion" thread so will stop there
Half agree with Jonathan, half agree with you. We have reached a new normal and things as they stand are here to stay. Although I do agree that there has been a lot of slack as passenger numbers are still high, but alas TOCs are coping fine with the reductions in service and things will never be as they were
So back in around February or i am not seeing any trains by southern running between brighton and london victoria. it was then from twitter that the service was cut.
Does anybody know when or will this service ever come back? And why was the service been cut.
Southern have binned a lot of trains without replacement - 313s and 455s following effect the pandemic had on demand. It follows that some resources have to be shifted around and some services withdrawn to reduce the gap between capacity and demand. It means busier trains and more interchanges on some routes.
Southern’s fleet is very stretched, so there will be no improvements, only compromises. I would personally convert the current GX Victoria-Brighton into Southern and stop at Clapham Junction and East Croydon
Don't disagree there, if paths permit. Would make sense.
One would argue that if there is an unaffordable luxury right now, it's the whole GX concept, rather than long-standing direct links from Clapham to Brighton.
(Incidentally in that 1981 timetable when the half hourly semi-fast (stopper south of Gatwick) to Brighton from Victoria didn't run on Saturdays, they stopped the hourly Brighton fast at Clapham instead, presumably to cover!)
That's only half the truth there, as four of these services are Thameslink trains going through the core. Regarding Gatwick Express, they're treated as a premium service, with certain fares restricting passengers to travel on one operator only.
Do you have any public documentation or an internal memo which states that GTR apply (unlawful) brand restricted pricing only for part of the London to Brighton route? If so this would be very useful and I would be most grateful to be provided with any such documentation.
If that’s the case, then wouldn’t it be better to just restore the December 2019 timetable (with 4tph Victoria - Brighton) when the time and demand comes?
No there aren't enough paths. It was only achieved before by the East & West Coast way services splitting at Haywards Heath. Both those services require 8 cars now to avoid the horrendous overcrowding that occured before.
No there aren't enough paths. It was only achieved before by the East & West Coast way services splitting at Haywards Heath. Both those services require 8 cars now to avoid the horrendous overcrowding that occured before.
Surprised that there is so much demand for Coastway East in particular that it necessitates two 8-car trains an hour. Not denying it, just surprised. I'd have expected (and am probably wrong) that one through train per hour from Victoria (12 cars) plus one Haywards Heath-Eastbourne shuttle (4 cars; freeing up paths on the mainline for a further Brighton service) would suffice for Coastway East; essentially it serves only Lewes (which isn't so big) and Eastbourne (Hastings having the faster Charing Cross services).
Coastway West has the whole densely-populated Hove-Worthing section so I can see 2tph makes sense here.
I don’t think anyone has mentioned the Gatwick Airport station upgrade? A while ago they were displaying this on the Southern website as the reason for only the Gatwick Express service running between London Victoria and Brighton.
While the units are needed for East Coastway services, the new operation of Gatwick with platforms 6 and 7 used for southbound trains and platform 4 and 5 for northbound trains doesn't particularly lend itself to terminating trains as well.
The overcrowding on the West Coast way isn't really on the BML itself, a 4 car off peak will be standing as far along as Shoreham by Sea. Ditto the East Coast way. Both coastways now need 2 tph of 8 cars. The Brighton line itself has oudles of off peak capacity because of the Thameslink services.
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Circumstances change, it's certainly conceivable these two paths (xx02/xx32) might be used for something in the future on the slow lines south of East Croydon, in the peaks at least.
