Could we see fast Southampton > Brighton services?

[winks]

What happened to the fast services to and from Southampton Central to Brighton. Going back a bit (2008) SWT fast from Havant to Brighton was always a good one and for some reason was not very busy.

Now the west coastway service to SOU has become tediously slow calling at all stations it seems, when it used to be fast / semi fast.

Is it likely to return to a fast service along this route?

 

[islandmonkey]

I would like to see that, something like all current stations to Emsworth and then Chichester, Barnham, Worthing, (Shoreham-by-Sea?), Hove, Brighton.

 

[swt_passenger]

What happened to the fast services to and from Southampton Central to Brighton. Going back a bit (2008) SWT fast from Havant to Brighton was always a good one and for some reason was not very busy.

Now the west coastway service to SOU has become tediously slow calling at all stations it seems, when it used to be fast / semi fast.

Is it likely to return to a fast service along this route?

The SWT fasts through Havant didn’t come from Southampton, but Reading or Basingstoke. They had ended by 2008. The replacement was a Southern service between Southampton and Brighton. In order to fit 5 tph between Barnham and Havant they have to share the calls out amongst the different services and I believe there’s no room for anything faster.

 

[winks]

I don’t think it came from Basingstoke but may have been Eastleigh.

Why has the idea of speeding up journeys fallen off the agenda.

 

[Kite159]

Doesn't help that the Brighton - West Worthing stoppers ceased to run due to timetable cutbacks so the Southampton + Portsmouth trains have to pick up calls at some of the smaller stations at the Brighton end, causing mass overcrowding (especially after kickball as Southern have enough units to double up the East Coastway but the West Coastway gets given 4 coach units, don't think you could have squeezed any more passengers on the 377 I took on Saturday evening after the 313 farewell)

 

[swt_passenger]

I don’t think it came from Basingstoke but may have been Eastleigh.

Why has the idea of speeding up journeys fallen off the agenda.

They definitely came from Basingstoke or Reading, I posted the exact 2007 timings in a fairly recent thread:

SWT Reading - Basingstoke and Reading - Brighton (North Downs) services

Does anybody have archival timetables from the era (1996-2011?) that SWT operated 170s, 158s and 159s on these routes? I am also looking for pictures of these trains on those routes, particularly the North Downs. I'm curious to know the service frequency and stopping pattern and how long both...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[JonathanH]

Why has the idea of speeding up journeys fallen off the agenda.

Not sure it definitely has. One of the things implied by the article in the current Modern Railways is that the Victoria to Southampton service could be culled to allow the resources to be reallocated to allow an improvement in Brighton to Southampton times.

Faster journeys have fallen off the agenda because they are a luxury when there is a need to cut costs, so stoppers and faster services are combined as stoppers to ensure everywhere remains served within the limited budgets.

 

[PedroHav]

Since the demise of the twice a day GWR service to Brighton, which was semi fast, there's nothing. It is a tedious journey and often pretty full especially at the weekends.

The Basingstoke/Reading service was really good and to my understanding well patronised. This part of the coast needs speeding up which in turn may attract more passengers.

Removing the Southampton - Victoria service would be a retregade step as it is used by a lot by those getting to Gatwick from points west of Southampton.

 

[PTR 444]

Since the demise of the twice a day GWR service to Brighton, which was semi fast, there's nothing. It is a tedious journey and often pretty full especially at the weekends.

The Basingstoke/Reading service was really good and to my understanding well patronised. This part of the coast needs speeding up which in turn may attract more passengers.

Removing the Southampton - Victoria service would be a retregade step as it is used by a lot by those getting to Gatwick from points west of Southampton.

These passengers also have the option to change at Clapham Junction, which can sometimes be quicker than going via Havant. I would argue for revising the Victoria - Portsmouth/Southampton services if they allow the Brighton services to be sped up. Perhaps the front 4 coaches could still detach at Horsham from the Bognor portion as they do now, but only run as far as Chichester or Havant. Provided this frees up units, I would then reinstate the Brighton - West Worthing stoppers and recast the Brighton to Portsmouth/Southampton services so they run at a combined half-hourly frequency to Havant.

 

[paul1609]

These passengers also have the option to change at Clapham Junction, which can sometimes be quicker than going via Havant. I would argue for revising the Victoria - Portsmouth/Southampton services if they allow the Brighton services to be sped up. Perhaps the front 4 coaches could still detach at Horsham from the Bognor portion as they do now, but only run as far as Chichester or Havant. Provided this frees up units, I would then reinstate the Brighton - West Worthing stoppers and recast the Brighton to Portsmouth/Southampton services so they run at a combined half-hourly frequency to Havant.

Would be a total disaster. The problem is that Chichester to Southampton also needs to be half hourly. The Southampton to Victoria service is generally busy at the Country end as far as Barnham. The South coast Brighton to Southampton is a major and growing conurbation. We've already suffered more than our fair share of cuts. Unfortunately GTR is just a too big franchise and management seems to lack any sort of focus off the Brighton Main Line. It needs breaking up asap.

 

[PTR 444]

Would be a total disaster. The problem is that Chichester to Southampton also needs to be half hourly. The Southampton to Victoria service is generally busy at the Country end as far as Barnham. The South coast Brighton to Southampton is a major and growing conurbation. We've already suffered more than our fair share of cuts. Unfortunately GTR is just a too big franchise and management seems to lack any sort of focus off the Brighton Main Line. It needs breaking up asap.

Chichester to Southampton is nowhere near half hourly at present despite being 2tph (both trains leave Soton 15 minutes apart due to pathing constraints on the Netley Line). If the Coastway was recast, perhaps you could have a half hourly Soton - Brighton service and a half hourly Pompey - London Vic service. It would sever some direct links but as a compromise allow both flows to have an evenly-spaced service with easy interchange onto one another at Chichester.

 

[paul1609]

Chichester to Southampton is nowhere near half hourly at present despite being 2tph (both trains leave Soton 15 minutes apart due to pathing constraints on the Netley Line). If the Coastway was recast, perhaps you could have a half hourly Soton - Brighton service and a half hourly Pompey - London Vic service. It would sever some direct links but as a compromise allow both flows to have an evenly-spaced service with easy interchange onto one another at Chichester.

Youre right, In the down direction its a 20 min split. For intermediate journeys say to Fareham theres also a change at Fratton intermediate service but the uneven split doesnt mean that 1 tph formed of 4 coaches would be even broadly acceptable. The current Brighton to Southampton service is generally full from Brighton to West Worthing where it thins out a bit but is still busy. When it gets to Barnham it starts filling up again and will stay near full till Southampton. it picks up a lot of passengers from Waterloo at Havant . I guess passengers doing journeys like Guildford to Fareham. Slashing more Coastway services just isnt acceptable.

 

[swt_passenger]

Chichester to Southampton is nowhere near half hourly at present despite being 2tph (both trains leave Soton 15 minutes apart due to pathing constraints on the Netley Line). If the Coastway was recast, perhaps you could have a half hourly Soton - Brighton service and a half hourly Pompey - London Vic service. It would sever some direct links but as a compromise allow both flows to have an evenly-spaced service with easy interchange onto one another at Chichester.

They have to be roughly 15 mins apart at one end of the route anyway, so that the trains can be half an hour apart at Victoria and Brighton. If you have a common core route connecting 4 places with 4 tph in the core, with all four journey permutations, it is impossible to do otherwise. People want direct services over changes.

 

[winks]

Is there still capacity for a Basingstoke to Brighton service ? The current route timing is 1hr 52 I think, for a fast train to Clapham and then change at East Croydon.

 

[PTR 444]

Is there still capacity for a Basingstoke to Brighton service ?

Certainly not via Havant. I wonder however if Reading to Brighton via the North Downs would be feasible if the GWR Gatwick service was extended?

The current route timing is 1hr 52 I think, for a fast train to Clapham and then change at East Croydon.

As is being discussed to death on another thread, would providing a stop at Clapham Junction in the Gatwick Express bring a significant reduction in this timing?

 

[winks]

Certainly not via Havant. I wonder however if Reading to Brighton via the North Downs would be feasible if the GWR Gatwick service was extended?


As is being discussed to death on another thread, would providing a stop at Clapham Junction in the Gatwick Express bring a significant reduction in this timing?

it would be more convenient and probably quicker , although any gains would be small.

I feel that having a through service would offer better services (from Reading area) and connect passengers with the north and south. XC Manchester / Birmingham interchanging at Basingstoke aswell. Sadly I can’t see this service returning though in the current setup.

 

[JonathanH]

XC Manchester / Birmingham interchanging at Basingstoke aswell.

Considerably faster to go from Brighton to St Pancras, take a ten minute walk to Euston, and travel with Avanti from there.

The reality is that next to no one would go via Basingstoke to get from Brighton to Birmingham and even fewer people would use that route to get to Manchester.

Sadly I can’t see this service returning though in the current setup.

Indeed. Falls into the bracket of hopeful expansion in the early era of privatisation that wasn't really viable.

 

[devon_belle]

Are any real improvements to semi-fast timings possible without passing loops? I wonder where the best places for these would be - perhaps Ford and Havant?

 

[JonathanH]

Are any real improvements to semi-fast timings possible without passing loops? I wonder where the best places for these would be - perhaps Ford and Havant?

Possibly, provided the West Worthing stopper doesn't return, and potentially if they didn't have to run the Bognor portions separately from everything else. Acceptance of a cut in frequencies could allow a (single) faster service.

As with all changes at present, it is about taking with one hand, and giving with another.

 

[devon_belle]

Acceptance of a cut in frequencies could allow a (single) faster service.

I think you're right, but that more service cuts would not be acceptable. A metro-style high frequency service on the Brighton end is probably what is really needed to cope with demand down there. I wonder if passengers would accept a cut in frequency if the line became an 8-car railway...? Perhaps trams would help this region too, but I figure they might just be too slow for the Worthing-Brighton traffic.

In a dream world we could have Southern high frequency services somehow fit around a fast/semi-fast GWR/SWT/Open Access 'University Line' service to connect the major towns Brighton-Swansea.

ISTR a network rail document somewhere which suggested quadrupling from Brighton to Barnham (?) would be needed for any major improvements to the service on the WCW. Maybe this could have happened 100 years ago, but it seems vanishingly unlikely that this would happen nowadays.

 

[yorksrob]

If only there were some EMU's that could be used in the London area to release units to double up more West coastway services.

Oh, there were but the Government has scrapped them.

 

[43074]

As with all changes at present, it is about taking with one hand, and giving with another.

That's not strictly true as GWR are increasing to 3tph between Bristol and Westbury and 2tph between Bristol and Gloucester from May and there's further expansion in December on North Downs.

Likewise XC are reinstating most Bristol to Manchester services so fortunately it's not all doom and gloom as you keep implying on here.

It's not about robbing Peter to pay Paul so to speak, more about whether additional enhancements are revenue generative or if not whether someone who isn't the Treasury (e.g. TfL or a combined authority) is willing to fund them. If one or both of those is the case then there's no reason not to expand services.

 

[Anonymous10]

That's not strictly true as GWR are increasing to 3tph between Bristol and Westbury and 2tph between Bristol and Gloucester from May and there's further expansion in December on North Downs.

Likewise XC are reinstating most Bristol to Manchester services so fortunately it's not all doom and gloom as you keep implying on here.

It's not about robbing Peter to pay Paul so to speak, more about whether additional enhancements are revenue generative or if not whether someone who isn't the Treasury (e.g. TfL or a combined authority) is willing to fund them. If one or both of those is the case then there's no reason not to expand services.

Yes but to expand that service the length of the 158 services will be reduced.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are any real improvements to semi-fast timings possible without passing loops? I wonder where the best places for these would be - perhaps Ford and Havant?

Havant is probably the main interchange station in that area, having any services passing straight through would be limiting very useful interchange. I’ve thought Barnham should ideally have had four through platforms with overtakes taking place there. It can already be done in the down direction of course.

 

[cle]

They don't have tons longer than 313s or 319s, but could 321s have shoes added?

 

[devon_belle]

Havant is probably the main interchange station in that area, having any services passing straight through would be limiting very useful interchange.

I suppose Havant could be rebuilt with four platforms too. I agree that services skipping Havant wouldn't make any sense.

I’ve thought Barnham should ideally have had four through platforms with overtakes taking place there. It can already be done in the down direction of course.

Do any trains use Barnham for this purpose?

 

[RobShipway]

They don't have tons longer than 313s or 319s, but could 321s have shoes added?

I don't believe that the class 321's could have shoes fitted. The only available units that could have shoes fitted possibly I believe is the class 379 or the 350/2 units. But there is a whole thread on the subject of the class 379, which I am not going to go through here! https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/future-of-class-379.163185/

For Southern or any operator to have enough units to do Southampton - Brighton fast services, you need either a cascade of units from one operator to another or an operator purchasing new units, which takes time to occur. There also needs to be the paths. Even though you may not have the GWR services travelling to Brighton anymore, I believe the paths have been taken up by freight trains that pass through Havant?

 

[JonathanH]

For Southern or any operator to have enough units to do Southampton - Brighton fast services, you need either a cascade of units from one operator to another or an operator purchasing new units, which takes time to occur.

Or you make cuts elsewhere to free up the rolling stock sooner. It all comes down to what will bring in the best return for the given costs.

Even though you may not have the GWR services travelling to Brighton anymore, I believe the paths have been taken up by freight trains that pass through Havant?

The paths essentially haven't yet been reoccupied as the trains were still scheduled to be running in the original timetable planning process.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Doesn't help that the Brighton - West Worthing stoppers ceased to run due to timetable cutbacks so the Southampton + Portsmouth trains have to pick up calls at some of the smaller stations at the Brighton end, causing mass overcrowding (especially after kickball as Southern have enough units to double up the East Coastway but the West Coastway gets given 4 coach units, don't think you could have squeezed any more passengers on the 377 I took on Saturday evening after the 313 farewell)

Aldrington and Fishersgate should be closed or have a very limited service and passengers advised to use Hove and Portslade instead. The Portsmouth and Southampton to Brighton trains should never call at Aldrington or Fishersgate. It makes no sense to slow down the Portsmouth and Southampton to Brighton trains by forcing them to call at Aldrington and Fishersgate when Hove and Portslade respectively are 15 minutes walk away. Even when the Brighton - West Worthing stoppers ran all day Monday to Saturday the Portsmouth and Southampton to Brighton trains were forced to call at Aldrington and Fishersgate on Sunday.

 

[Kite159]

Aldrington and Fishersgate should be closed or have a very limited service and passengers advised to use Hove and Portslade instead. The Portsmouth and Southampton to Brighton trains should never call at Aldrington or Fishersgate. It makes no sense to slow down the Portsmouth and Southampton to Brighton trains by forcing them to call at Aldrington and Fishersgate when Hove and Portslade respectively are 15 minutes walk away. Even when the Brighton - West Worthing stoppers ran all day Monday to Saturday the Portsmouth and Southampton to Brighton trains were forced to call at Aldrington and Fishersgate on Sunday.

And especially as some locals of the "pay only when challenged" type have cottoned onto those stations lacking ticket barriers (whereas Hove & Portslade do have barriers).