Voter ID at polling stations: Railcards are no good, so what's the alternative for students?

[Bletchleyite]

Do you know what? I only found out today as there a leaflet in my council tax bill letter.
I skimmed over this thread for some reason.

Hopefully they'll print this on the polling cards, still it's going to be chaos as I reckon no-one will bother reading it then it will kick off at the polling station.

I doubt it will cause many people to kick off because most people have relevant ID. It might be a faff to go home and get it, and that may mean some people can't be bothered to return, but this Forum loves to predict civil unrest, and it almost never happens - the UK isn't minded like that.

 

[birchesgreen]

The poll shown earlier in this thread is interesting, looks like it'll affect the Tory vote more than the Labour one then, that would be hilarious if this backfired on the governing regime.

 

[DelayRepay]

I've started to see a lot more publicity about this in the last couple of weeks. My local council are putting out regular social media posts, and other community organisations are re-posting them. Only problem is that not everyone uses social media or follows local councils/organisations.

I wonder if they'll print a prominent reminder on the polling cards, when they're delivered? That would be an effective way to reach people.

 

[Ediswan]

I wonder if they'll print a prominent reminder on the polling cards, when they're delivered? That would be an effective way to reach people.

Braintree did this for the 2019 trial.

 

[AM9]

Braintree did this for the 2019 trial.
View attachment 130480

That's good, - so is there any obligation for local authorities to do that?

 

[Amos]

I've started to see a lot more publicity about this in the last couple of weeks. My local council are putting out regular social media posts, and other community organisations are re-posting them. Only problem is that not everyone uses social media or follows local councils/organisations.

I wonder if they'll print a prominent reminder on the polling cards, when they're delivered? That would be an effective way to reach people.

I have noticed a few posters up in bus shelters in Aylesbury.

 

[Trackman]

That's good, - so is there any obligation for local authorities to do that?

Indeed, nice to see it in red too.

I doubt it will cause many people to kick off because most people have relevant ID. It might be a faff to go home and get it, and that may mean some people can't be bothered to return, but this Forum loves to predict civil unrest, and it almost never happens - the UK isn't minded like that.

Lol! I didn't mean civil unrest, but I've seen arguments in polling stations before - holding people up and they become agitated/angry.

I have noticed a few posters up in bus shelters in Aylesbury.

No doubt it will ramp up nationwide in the weeks following up to polling day.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Braintree did this for the 2019 trial.
View attachment 130480

That's good but seems to me poorly worded if it was a photo id trial since it doesn't say PHOTO id, and I imagine a lot of people would incorrectly therefore assume the poll card itself counts as id.

 

[najaB]

That's good but seems to me poorly worded if it was a photo id trial since it doesn't say PHOTO id, and I imagine a lot of people would incorrectly therefore assume the poll card itself counts as id.

It does say "A full list of acceptable ID is set out overleaf..." If people can't be bothered to turn a piece of paper over then maybe the loss of their vote isn't that big of a problem.

 

[JamesT]

That's good but seems to me poorly worded if it was a photo id trial since it doesn't say PHOTO id, and I imagine a lot of people would incorrectly therefore assume the poll card itself counts as id.

There were trials of various forms of voter id, in this particular case.

Braintree District Council taking part in Voter ID pilots in 2019 – Braintree District Council

Braintree District Council is set to take part in the next round of the 2019 Voter ID pilots along with 10 other local authorities across England.

www.braintree.gov.uk

Voters in the Braintree District require voters to present either one form of photo ID or up to two forms of non-photo ID.

 

[AM9]

There were trials of various forms of voter id, in this particular case.

Braintree District Council taking part in Voter ID pilots in 2019 – Braintree District Council

Braintree District Council is set to take part in the next round of the 2019 Voter ID pilots along with 10 other local authorities across England.

www.braintree.gov.uk

It's strange, the Electoral Commission list is headed 'photo ID' but just "Driving Licence" is listed without reference to it not including the paper one. I would imagine a few problems from those under 70 years old and still holding pink/green paper licences who would have been living at the same address for at least 20 years.

 

[MikeWM]

Do you know what? I only found out today as there a leaflet in my council tax bill letter.

One in mine too, though I'm guessing those who have opted for receiving a paperless bill (as it exhorts me to do on the front of the envelope, the back of the envelope, the bill itself and the leaflet accompanying the bill - yes, I got the message the first three times, and no, I'm not going to however many times you 'nudge' me into doing so) would not have received that either.

At least the electoral commission website the leaflet refers me to

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/voter/voter-id/accepted-forms-photo-id

is clear now that a provisional driving licence is considered acceptable ID for this purpose, which I don't remember being made explicit previously.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's strange, the Electoral Commission list is headed 'photo ID' but just "Driving Licence" is listed without reference to it not including the paper one. I would imagine a few problems from those under 70 years old and still holding pink/green paper licences who would have been living at the same address for at least 20 years.

So hardly anybody, and it might well give them a nudge to upgrade their licence. It's handy ID so a lot of people have.

 

[AM9]

So hardly anybody, and it might well give them a nudge to upgrade their licence. It's handy ID so a lot of people have.

Why should they, I have a perfectly good paper licence until it was renewed by a photo version at 70. So far, the requirement to replace it every 3 years has been free of charge when the fitness to drive has been confirmed. My wife still has one which is all she will need for a few more years. Much better than having to pay £20 every 10 years.
I think the number of drivers that are under 70 and have been living at the same address since before year 2000 is not "hardly anybody" and would almost certainly mostly comprise those who do vote. Meanwhile, they don't need to waste their money until 2033* (when paper licences are scheduled to become invalid altogether), and it's not an "upgrade" in any way for the holder.
* I don't believe anything has been announced on whether those still under 70 in 2033 will get free replacements, or have to join the 'paying club'.

 

[Cloud Strife]

At least the electoral commission website the leaflet refers me to

I find it interesting that my Polish ID card is sufficient for me to vote with, but not sufficient for me to enter the country with!

 

[Elwyn]

I find it interesting that my Polish ID card is sufficient for me to vote with, but not sufficient for me to enter the country with!

That might be to do with the practicalities of entering the country now that the UK has left the EU. Many Poles will now have time limits and other restrictions on their visits to the UK and in general that requires a stamp in your passport. Not something easily done with an ID card.

 

[Cloud Strife]

That might be to do with the practicalities of entering the country now that the UK has left the EU. Many Poles will now have time limits and other restrictions on their visits to the UK and in general that requires a stamp in your passport. Not something easily done with an ID card.

The UK now doesn't stamp passports for tourist visits, it's all done digitally. So, there's really no reason not to accept biometric ID cards, but it's a story for another thread.

 

[jfollows]

The BBC reported yesterday (Thursday 30 March) (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-65122040)

• 399 "Mancunians" have so far applied for a Voter Authority Certificate
• 32,522 applications had been made across England on 19 March
• It is estimated the 3.5m voters across the UK do not currently have an acceptable form of ID
• The deadline to apply for a Voter Authority Certificate is Tuesday 25 April

Despite the efforts of many, including people who believe the requirement for ID is wrong or unduly rushed, there are going to be a lot of people unable to vote in the local elections on Thursday 4 May. The question to be resolved will be how many of these people actually want to vote and find that they're unable to.

Local elections: Masked councillor issues photo ID warning​

• • Published
    23 hours ago

By Paul Burnell
BBC News

A councillor produced a bizarre visual aid to highlight the new obligation for people to take approved photographic ID with them to their polling station.
As Manchester City Council's final meeting concluded before the local elections on 4 May, Pat Karney pulled out a faceless mask from a plastic bag.
The council leader sitting nearby put her hand to her face as he donned the mask before continuing to speak.
Voters will have to show identification such as a driving licence or passport.
The new rules apply to all council elections in England.
Alternatively, people can apply for a free Voter Authority Certificate (VAC).
The Local Democracy Reporting Service writes that, according to Mr Karney, only 399 Mancunians had applied for one.
The total number of applications across England stood at 32,522 on 19 March.
The deadline to apply for a VAC is 25 April.

• Why do I need photo ID to vote?
• Is there an election in my area?
• A simple guide to elections

It is estimated that up to 3.5m voters across the UK do not currently have an acceptable form of ID.
Mr Karney has previously warned that police could be called to "flare ups" as people arriving at polling stations without ID are turned away.
He said: "If you come to the polling station and you haven't got facial recognition, if you don't bring your facial identity - and that's everybody in Manchester, every councillor here - if you turn up at the polling station and you haven't got a facial identity, you could be turned away and you won't be able to vote."

EDIT I suspect, but could be wrong, that the apparent discrepancy between reports of "3.5m" and "2m" voters without identification is explained by the number of people voting in the May local elections - presumably 2m - whereas 3.5m describes the population as whole, many of whom won't be voting in May. I am, in Cheshire East, but I have a postal vote.

 

[jfollows]

Update 14 April (https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ring-in-extra-staff-as-voter-id-changes-begin):

Those without ID can apply for a free so-called voter authority certificate, issued by their council but available via a central government portal.

A running tally for central applications, which close on 25 April, show that as of 2 April, exactly 37,000 people had applied, fewer than 2% of the possible number of voters lacking ID.

Older and younger voters are even less likely to have applied for the document, despite both groups being seen as vulnerable to being put off from voting by the new laws. As of 2 April, just 1,361 people aged 75 or older had applied, 3.6% of the total. Just 6% of applications, 2,247 in all, had been from under-25s.

EDIT However, application numbers have gone up since 2 April; BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65272595) gives a total of 60,368 by today, 14 April, and see also https://voter-authority-certificate.service.gov.uk/performance#past-three-months: (chart showing online applications per day never exceeding 1,000 until late March, now showing over 2,000)

 

[jfollows]

Deadline for applying for a Voter Authority Certificate is 5pm today; BBC reports that 80,281 applications had been made by 24 April (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-64877005). The number of applications per day has just recently risen to over 3,000 (https://voter-authority-certificate.service.gov.uk/performance):

The 3,536 figure is an outlier; the number of applications per day had been running at around 1,500 up to and including 23 April, with double the number yesterday (24 April) only and presumably also we'll see a high number for the last day - today, 25 April.
It still means than if there are 2m voters eligible to vote in the local elections but without appropriate ID, only about 0.1m of them will have applied for this Voter Authority Certificate, but it may well be that 1.9m of them never had any intention of voting anyway.

EDIT Final figure 85,185 applications made online.

 

[Typhoon]

Apologies if this is not the most appropriate place to post.

The Conservative Party has been forced to withdraw a campaign leaflet in Norwich after it told voters they do not need to prove their identity to take part in next week’s local elections, despite a new law requiring everyone to produce ID at polling stations.

In a campaign leaflet sent out to homes in the Norfolk city, the local Tory party, told local residents: “You don’t need to take any ID in order to vote, so long as you are registered.”

However, election law now dictates that voters must take an accepted form of ID with them to polling stations if they are to be permitted to cast their ballot.

A spokeswoman for the Electoral Commission said: “It’s concerning that these instructions were included as it is not the correct advice.

“We understand the local council is aware of this material and is in touch with the local party about the error. Voters deserve accurate information from parties about how to take part in elections.”

Worryingly, it also includes:

The flyer in Norwich is not the first time during the local elections campaign that the Conservative Party has been accused of misleading voters.

In March i revealed that the Election Commission had expressed doubts over whether postal vote applications being sent to thousands of homes across the country by the party were being handled legally.

The return envelopes on the applications were addressed to local Conservative Associations across England, rather than local councils, causing concern that some people may not be able to vote at the forthcoming local elections in May.

The Electoral Commission said all campaigners should send any applications they receive to the relevant Electoral Registration Office within two working days.

However, when asked if they could guarantee that any postal vote application forms sent to Conservative Associations were being passed onto councils within this time frame, a spokeswoman for the commission said: “No, we cannot.”

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...p&cvid=a341162c931b4298fab8f48fb7d9b601&ei=44

If the reason an organisation is putting forward for voter ID (or anything similar) is to avoid voter fraud, then they need to ensure that there are absolutely no grounds for believing that there is electoral advantage to be gained from it. These are probably careless, but leave room for people to think otherwise (both look decidedly odd). In the former case, I would be interested if anyone turns up at the Polling Station, claiming to have seen this leaflet, and in the latter, if anyone claims to have returned a postal voting application that was out of time because it was returned to the wrong place.

 

[owidoe]

Apologies if this is not the most appropriate place to post.



Worryingly, it also includes:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...p&cvid=a341162c931b4298fab8f48fb7d9b601&ei=44

If the reason an organisation is putting forward for voter ID (or anything similar) is to avoid voter fraud, then they need to ensure that there are absolutely no grounds for believing that there is electoral advantage to be gained from it. These are probably careless, but leave room for people to think otherwise (both look decidedly odd). In the former case, I would be interested if anyone turns up at the Polling Station, claiming to have seen this leaflet, and in the latter, if anyone claims to have returned a postal voting application that was out of time because it was returned to the wrong place.

"Downloaded from CCHQ" my eye. CCHQ would have known how to spell 'businesses' (dix. 'busnesses'). This was an inside job made to look like an accident.

 

[Buzby]

Anyone old enough to remember when forms (and adverts) had a tick box where you declared ‘I am over 21’, subsequently reduced to ‘I am over 18’? The advent of requiring a Date of Birth I thought was a dangerous precedent as it was the start of data harvestin. The changeover period was messy when on a call CS staff would say ‘Can I confirm your DoB?’ And my answer was the same, how can you confirm what you don’t know? It was a ruse to populate their data. Credit reference agencies led the surge in needing this to generate a 6-digit number to identify users, and their clients often did the grunt work for them.

Learning that a Polynesian nation never used DoB’s, but everyone used 1st January and their year of birth as a great idea, I randomised who got what year, and I must admit it has been an effective solution to identity theft issues. It’s a shame then that the Govt went to the reference agencies to assist in their database verifying schemes. The maxim of GIGO can still cause them issues. (Garbage In, Garbage Out).

 

[najaB]

Learning that a Polynesian nation never used DoB’s, but everyone used 1st January and their year of birth as a great idea,

That's not unique to Polynesia. It used to be common across much of Asia and is still used on South Korea to determine age.

 

[Howardh]

Just voted. After ticking my name off his sheet, just a cursory glance at my drivers licence, but not at me!!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Just voted. After ticking my name off his sheet, just a cursory glance at my drivers licence, but not at me!!

I did wonder how much this would be enforced on the day. There was the Conservative leaflet mentioned #262 saying that ID wouldn't be required.

Did the poll clerk specifically ask to see your ID or did you present it without asking because you knew of the requirement?

I am interested to hear the experiences of other voters (and those turned away).

 

[Box]

I was asked whether I had I.d. at the door and then had to show it at the desk, and the clerk looked at it and also my face. It was very quiet so not a problem but whatever the rights and wrongs it will obviously slow things down if the polling station is busy.

 

[Howardh]

Did the poll clerk specifically ask to see your ID or did you present it without asking because you knew of the requirement?

I had it in my hand ready but was asked to show it.

 

[jfollows]

I suspect that Labour won't repeal this legislation but will amend it to broaden the scope of "acceptable" forms of identification, addressing some of the issues raised at the start of this thread. I don't think it's generally unpopular, except with libertarians like me, and from what I'm reading its negative effects seem to be less bad than I originally worried about. Maybe the 2m people who can't vote are also 2m people who had no intention of voting - although that might not be the case for the next general election. I'd like to see the legislation repealed, but it's unlikely to figure significantly in Labour's next election manifesto, so I think it won't happen.

 

[PeterC]

I was asked whether I had I.d. at the door and then had to show it at the desk, and the clerk looked at it and also my face. It was very quiet so not a problem but whatever the rights and wrongs it will obviously slow things down if the polling station is busy.

If a ballot is refused by the teller that is recorded. People turned away at the door aren't recorded giving a false count of attempts to vote without id.