What will it take for Southern to get new trains?

[PGAT]

Just one question, what's the difference between peak time and off peak services on the Caterham/Tattenham Corner lines? Don't they all go to London Victoria?

Same peak and off-peak, 2tph to London Bridge, fast from Norwood Jn

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Same peak and off-peak, 2tph to London Bridge, fast from Norwood Jn

Ahh, thought they all went to Victoria. I see now

 

[JonathanH]

Just one question, what's the difference between peak time and off peak services on the Caterham/Tattenham Corner lines? Don't they all go to London Victoria?

There is now no difference between the peak and off peak service on the Caterham / Tattenham Corner route. They run half hourly from each route to London Bridge, splitting and joining at Purley.

Until 2020, there was a second half hourly peak only service which ran to London Victoria, again joining and splitting at Purley.

Off-peak, trains to Caterham from London Bridge via Tulse Hill and Norbury have been cut short at East Croydon and London Bridge to Coulsdon Town via Forest Hill cut entirely.

 

[PGAT]

The Tattenham Corner line has been one of the worst lines on the network to recover from COVID. Reedham, Coulsdon Town and Woodmansterne all went into the top 10 least used stations in London

 

[SouthEastBuses]

There is now no difference between the peak and off peak service on the Caterham / Tattenham Corner route. They run half hourly from each route to London Bridge, splitting and joining at Purley.

Until 2020, there was a second half hourly peak only service which ran to London Victoria, again joining and splitting at Purley.

Off-peak, trains to Caterham from London Bridge via Tulse Hill and Norbury have been cut short at East Croydon and London Bridge to Coulsdon Town via Forest Hill cut entirely.

Ah okay. Not too bad I suppose, although it does mean that Oxford uni students (both Oxford Brookes University and University of Oxford) who live on the Caterham/Tattenham Corner lines and travel from uni to home & viceversa on the Oxford Tube to/from London Victoria now have to change at East Croydon, unlike in the past when you could go direct to Victoria. But East Croydon is an easy station to change trains, so just a minor inconvenience I guess

 

[jojoseph72]

I wonder if that's because of the 377s having to replace the 455s?

Most likely the reason. The only difference with services to Horsham is the 1tph to Victoria via Dorking & Epsom is now significantly slower then pre-pandemic, taking over the Epsom stopper service as well.

 

[Baji]

The 8 carriages trains on the London Victoria to Epsom Downs route could inter-work with the London Victoria to Dorking/Horsham route if they changed the times slightly. For example the train departs Victoria to Epsom downs 2 minutes earlier (**28 and **58 instead of **00 and **30 and the train to Victoria to Dorking and Horsham departs 2 minutes later (**13 and **43 instead of **11 and **41)
Example of pattern

00:13 London Victoria to Dorking due 01:09

01:17 Dorking to London Victoria due 02:15

02:28 London Victoria to Epsom Downs due 02:27

0236 Epsom Downs to London Victoria due 03:36

03:43 London Victoria to Horsham due 05:03

05:14 Horsham to London Victoria due 06:45

07:58 London Victoria to Epsom Downs due 0857

0906 Epsom Downs to London Victoria due 1006
They would mostly run with 8 coaches with some of them 10 carriages and 5 carriages.

Obviously need to Amend the times of other routes slightly so it fits.

 

[PGAT]

Sorry but you are not getting away with any less than 8 coaches on the Epsom Downs route.

 

[Sm5]

Sorry but you are not getting away with any less than 8 coaches on the Epsom Downs route.

why ?

Personally I think the downs branch has a case for closure myself.

Downs passengers could easily use Tattenham Corner.

Banstead is an eerie ghost town of a station..90k entries/exits a year, most of whom will be dropped off or picked up by car from the busy A road, which is less than 2 minutes drive from Belmont. The station itself is pretty much equidistant from Belmont to Banstead village.. but suspect Residents of Banstead drive to Carshalton / Carshalton Beeches anyway to get free parking and a 10 minute saving on the commute.

Belmont for its part only has 100k entries / exits and is 5 minutes from Sutton, political cash wasting has granted it a siding at Banstead and the only reason I can think of is tfl expansion, as its conveniently at the “end of london”, and so someday become end of the line.

Even before covid Ive ridden this branch as a solo passenger on the train, and a surprised driver to find anyone onboard at all…in event of a crisis Southern always axed these services first, often for several hours.

I do think Metro is ripe for a shake up.. Banstead has 16 stations within 3 miles… Nelson has similar entry exits, and just 3 stations in 3 miles, a 2 car DMU every hour… not an 8 car EMU every half… Scope exists for something to be “levelled up”.

 

[PGAT]

why ?

Personally I think the downs branch has a case for closure myself.

Downs passengers could easily use Tattenham Corner.

Banstead is an eerie ghost town of a station..90k entries/exits a year, most of whom will be dropped off or picked up by car from the busy A road, which is less than 2 minutes drive from Belmont.

Belmont for its part only has 100k entries / exits and is 5 minutes from Sutton, though granted political cash wasting has granted a siding at Banstead and the only reason I can think of is tfl expansion, as its conveniently at the “end of london”.

The branch itself is very quiet but the rest of the route (especially after Selhurst) piles up alot

 

[Sm5]

The branch itself is very quiet but the rest of the route (especially after Selhurst) piles up alot

Agreed, but after Sutton its game over.

metro needs shaking up.

personally, I’d suggest turning West Croydons old carriage sidings into terminal platforms.
level the rest of the station, move the tram onto the Sutton line and upto Sutton.
Frees up space by the bus station, as the land is ramped the whole thing could be step free.

Trams could run much more efficiently to sutton, reinstate Bandon Halt, run off the old stabling sidings at Sutton off up the side street and into the town centre.

Let tfl take the Carshalton line to Belmont, Wimbledon loop turn it over to the Northern line tube, replace 1 bridge and 1 building, and it could have a single bay platform at Sutton. Thameslink can run to Epsom.

Tattenham corner to Purley could make a nice preserved railway, especially if the old shed was made available… perhaps Caterham branch too, which is redundant to the East Grinstead line virtually next door to it… Whyteleafe to upper Warlingham is 0.1mile !!!

The quarry lines themselves seem a bit difficult to justify.

its 2023.. people are working from home, driving 2-3 miles to a station isnt a chore, uber exists. In my mind a lot of stations in close proximity arent relevant (16 stations with 3 miles !! ) consolidating them from a collection of 50-100k entries / exits up into grouped stations of 300k plus with parking is more economic and not an inconvienience.

 

[JonathanH]

Tattenham corner to Purley could make a nice preserved railway, especially if the old shed was made available… perhaps Caterham branch too, which is redundant to the East Grinstead line virtually next door to it… Whyteleafe to upper Warlingham is 0.1mile !!!

An hourly shuttle between Purley and Tattenham Corner would definitely be adequate provision on the line.

 

[PTR 444]

An hourly shuttle between Purley and Tattenham Corner would definitely be adequate provision on the line.

You’re probably right in terms of frequency. Only Kingswood and Tadworth have exceeded 100k passengers per annum since COVID-19, so an hourly service could probably suffice. I’m not sure whether residents would be happy to lose their direct service to London though, hence this service should probably still split and join with one of the Caterhams.

 

[Energy]

How do you know this?

The Class 387/2s were delivered because it was a follow-on order from the Thameslink 387/1s.

IIRC the 379s were originally tested for 110mph, the work needed to upgrade them is either a software update or additional motor cooling like the 360s. Either way its much cheaper than 379s to third rail.

 

[D365]

IIRC the 379s were originally tested for 110mph…

and any units being upgraded to 110mph top speed need testing to 121mph.

I was under the impression that the Desiro modifications were a lot more substantial than just ventilation of the traction equipment.

 

[Jturner98]

and any units being upgraded to 110mph top speed need testing to 121mph.

I was under the impression that the Desiro modifications were a lot more substantial than just ventilation of the traction equipment.

The pantograph heads will need modifying too

 

[swt_passenger]

and any units being upgraded to 110mph top speed need testing to 121mph.

I was under the impression that the Desiro modifications were a lot more substantial than just ventilation of the traction equipment.

The traction motor rotors had to be reinforced for higher speed running. This was definitely mentioned in the track access applications for the WCML Desiro 110 mph project, but on the other hand there was nothing stated about motor ventilation changes.

 

[Energy]

The traction motor rotors had to be reinforced for higher speed running. This was definitely mentioned in the track access applications for the WCML Desiro 110 mph project, but on the other hand there was nothing stated about motor ventilation changes.

That might have been it, I'm not too sure what the desiro 110mph mods exactly were. Either way its easier than 3rd rail 379s.