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Class 221 for Grand Central

hexagon789

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Mod Note: Posts #1 - #27 originally in this thread.

221143 is getting an exam and other maintenance work performed.

10 units in total are set to transfer to GC after refresh and rebranding.

That is the ROSCO's own information.
 
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JonathanH

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DfT had the opportunity to get XC to take them on lease and didn’t jump at it.
I guess that proves once and for all that XC fleet expansion comes at a cost which isn't acceptable to the DfT.

Grand Central, as an Open Access Operator, have taken the opportunity to substitute a fleet of reliable rolling stock for rolling stock that is less reliable, and potentially a risk to their business. CrossCountry clearly aren't in that position.

Still, it may eventually be easier for CrossCountry to make a case for taking ten units on lease rather than twenty.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Also be a fairly hefty downgrade for GC's passengers unless they intend on rearranging the seating, but that would seem out of scope for a "refresh"!
According to who? Your personal tastes? I’d probably rather have a Voyager than a 180.


-

Despite this news, is there any chance at all of the EMR 180s (perhaps minus damaged 113) joining GC for support until Avanti are able to free the remaining eight units? The 805/807 won’t be ready to displace them for a while still yet, and it'll take even longer if they're to enter service "after refresh and rebranding."

221143 is getting an exam and other maintenance work performed.

10 units in total are set to transfer to GC after refresh and rebranding.

That is the ROSCO's own information.
May you link this in please, as I can’t find it on Beacon Rail’s website.
 
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dk1

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Is it? That means XC soldiers on with severe undercapacity yet again.

Also be a fairly hefty downgrade for GC's passengers unless they intend on rearranging the seating, but that would seem out of scope for a "refresh"!
At least GC passengers will have a train. XC have another 10 that they can play with if the tight fisted DfT ever pull their fingers out.
 

jagardner1984

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Seems interesting that whilst other Open Access operations have warranted new rolling stock orders, GC seem to be in a perpetual cycle of where the 20 year old hand-me-down running on diesel under the wires for much of its journey will come from.
 

Some guy

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That will be really interesting to see if they remove the tilting mechanism as it wouldn’t really need required much on the ECML. Hopefully they go back in for the Blackpool paths it could be possible as it would be 125 mph running
 

JonathanH

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Hopefully they go back in for the Blackpool paths it could be possible as it would be 125 mph running
They are only taking on enough units to directly replace the Adelantes on their existing ECML services.

That will be really interesting to see if they remove the tilting mechanism as it wouldn’t really need required much on the ECML.
With no ballaises on the route, the tilt mechanism wouldn't function on the ECML in any case.
 

The Middle

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Seems interesting that whilst other Open Access operations have warranted new rolling stock orders, GC seem to be in a perpetual cycle of where the 20 year old hand-me-down running on diesel under the wires for much of its journey will come from.
As the last diesel operator into KGX It is hard to see their track access agreement being extended without a commitment to obtaining bi-mode units.
 

Clarence Yard

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Traction power type is not something that can be mandated in a track access agreement. If they want to operate full diesel as part of a TAA extension, they will be able to.
 

JonathanH

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Traction power type is not something that can be mandated in a track access agreement. If they want to operate full diesel as part of a TAA extension, they will be able to.
Is that legislative to change, or just a matter for the regulator to decide upon?
 

RailWonderer

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Grand Central, as an Open Access Operator, have taken the opportunity to substitute a fleet of reliable rolling stock for rolling stock that is less reliable, and potentially a risk to their business. CrossCountry clearly aren't in that position.
You mean the opposite way around. Voyagers are more reliable than 180s and always have been.
Also be a fairly hefty downgrade for GC's passengers unless they intend on rearranging the seating, but that would seem out of scope for a "refresh"!
XC has always been overcapacity and Avanti mostly run their Voyagers in pairs. GC will be fine with 5 car Voyagers, and they are a better quality train than the 180s that's for sure.
 

RailWonderer

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Wha?

You mean XC has always been undercapacity i.e. in dire need of more trains? Doesn't mean this opportunity to fix it should be missed.
Overcrowded I meant. Even 10 more Voyagers would be crucial for them, and the Nottingham Cardiff should really go over to Voyager operaton as well to see off more 170s to double up the Brum - Leicester - Stansted services.
 

Crossover

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That will be really interesting to see if they remove the tilting mechanism as it wouldn’t really need required much on the ECML. Hopefully they go back in for the Blackpool paths it could be possible as it would be 125 mph running
XC removed the tilting mechanism yonks ago - my understanding is the 221's have fixed bars in place of it, to save on maintenance costs. If memory serves correctly, Stafford to Birmingham is about the only corridor of the entire XC network that could have made use of it anyway
 

swt_passenger

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XC removed the tilting mechanism yonks ago - my understanding is the 221's have fixed bars in place of it, to save on maintenance costs. If memory serves correctly, Stafford to Birmingham is about the only corridor of the entire XC network that could have made use of it anyway
There was a section between Oxford and Banbury as well. But IIRC the timetables always allowed for operation by 220s anyway.
 

hexagon789

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XC removed the tilting mechanism yonks ago - my understanding is the 221's have fixed bars in place of it, to save on maintenance costs. If memory serves correctly, Stafford to Birmingham is about the only corridor of the entire XC network that could have made use of it anyway
An hydraulic ram is replaced by a solid one. That's it.

There was a section between Oxford and Banbury as well. But IIRC the timetables always allowed for operation by 220s anyway.
With an impressive sub half-min gain... ;)
 

Clarence Yard

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Is that legislative to change, or just a matter for the regulator to decide upon?

Legislation. You would have to have the power to ban certain traction types on certain lines on environmental grounds. But, even then, if you tried to ban diesel through Network Change, NR would have to compensate all affected operators for the effect on their businesses.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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AFAIK you won't find anything publically viewable, but training is supposed to start soon - XC instructors at Leeds I understand.
Do you mind if I ask how you got this information?
I’ll be so fascinated to see what GC do with the interiors.
 

Energy

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Legislation. You would have to have the power to ban certain traction types on certain lines on environmental grounds. But, even then, if you tried to ban diesel through Network Change, NR would have to compensate all affected operators for the effect on their businesses.
I would've thought that 80Xs would have been cheaper than 221s under wires. Hitachi must have really put the price up and/or Beacon put the price down.

Should see a new track access agreement / extension, the current one ends in december 2026.
Do you mind if I ask how you got this information?
I’ll be so fascinated to see what GC do with the interiors.
Probably similar to the mk4, so GC seat covers signage and carpet.
 

hexagon789

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Do you mind if I ask how you got this information?
I’ll be so fascinated to see what GC do with the interiors.
My family has a long connection with railways (going back to my great-grandfather); ergo - I'm privileged to know some people ;)

Mind you, I noticed later this morning that similar information has filtered onto another rail forum - wnxx

There is even a tangible suggestion there that XC could get the remaining ten 221s after the HSTs are gone.
 
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Do you mind if I ask how you got this information?
I’ll be so fascinated to see what GC do with the interiors.
I can also second that the transfer is planned, but can’t give any public sources. I was told it would be only a ‘soft touch’ refurb and rebrand so make of that what you will.
 

43096

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I would've thought that 80Xs would have been cheaper than 221s under wires.
Not necessarily. As fuel and electricity prices fluctuate (wildly, recently) so one type of traction becomes more or less expensive than the other. DRS, Freightliner and DB Cargo have all reduced electric traction usage in recent times as electricity prices have gone up.
Hitachi must have really put the price up and/or Beacon put the price down.
A half-life train with no other projected use is likely to be cheaper to lease than a brand new one.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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I can also second that the transfer is planned, but can’t give any public sources. I was told it would be only a ‘soft touch’ refurb and rebrand so make of that what you will.
Are all ten to enter service after Avanti has finished them, or can we expect 142/143 to head over almost immediately to support the current 180s until the other eight can come and displace them, which surely won’t be for about a year considering 805/807 introduction and the refurbishment is coming first?
 

Bletchleyite

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To be fair the Avanti ones are the better ones compared to XC, but the interior is still very high density (coach D aside) so will be a big downgrade in comfort terms from 180s.

The main thing I see as bad from this is that they're an opportunity to sort out XC's capacity issues (and replace the HSTs) which AGAIN is being ignored.
 

Trainbike46

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Are all ten to enter service after Avanti has finished them, or can we expect 142/143 to head over almost immediately to support the current 180s until the other eight can come and displace them, which surely won’t be for about a year considering 805/807 introduction and the refurbishment is coming first?
My guess would be that the first 2 will head over earlier to allow for crew training and competence retention, until the rest can join

To be fair the Avanti ones are the better ones compared to XC, but the interior is still very high density (coach D aside) so will be a big downgrade in comfort terms from 180s.

The main thing I see as bad from this is that they're an opportunity to sort out XC's capacity issues (and replace the HSTs) which AGAIN is being ignored.

XC undeniably needs more trains, and this opportunity is gone, but really what XC needs is bimodes, not more diesels
 

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