Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

[Zontar]

Sounds like a great plan. But I suspect they will just leave 197s on it.

TFW could order 5 more Class 231's which would have made much more sense than the 230's. Stadler would be able to maintain them and would have the commonality with the 231's and 756's in the South. Further down the line if Merseyrail take over the line with 777's, they can easily be relocated to cover routes in the South.
I'm not sure if they will have the fuel range to do a full days diagram, but it wouldn't be far off.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Beneficial to whom though? If TfW did just give up on the 230s at this point, would that actually be better (for passengers) than battling on trying to improve their reliability? If they just gave up, like WMT did with their 230s on the Marston Vale line as soon as Vivarail went bust, the Borderlands Line could well be looking at another prolonged period of semi-permanent bustitution. I'm sure that TfW don't want to be spending this much time and money on trying to make the 230s work, but they've chosen to give it a go. And it rather feels like TfW is damned if they do try, and damned if they don't bother. Spare a thought for the team at Birkenhead trying, in good faith, to make this work.

I agree. Simply - no gain without pain. Anyway everything new seems to have protracted problems with introduction these days. Apart perhaps from the Stadler FLIRTS - Expensive but you get what you pay for.

Seeing as "passenger number improver" is mentioned above, has that particular aspiration been realised?

No - not yet.

Sure, Vivarail and the Birkenhead team have done their best, but there's apparently a better solution available in the 777s.

Politics come into as well in this case, of course. The Welsh Government won't want to hand over to an English operator.


But what's better for the passengers who just want to get where they need to go reliably and on time?

+

That'll be the same 777s that also don't seem to manage to go a day without failing? Not quite sure how that helps with the latter part of your post

And am I right in thinking the 777s come with no loo and 230s do. Also not sure the 777s would have anywhere near the range required on battery ?.

Veering off topic but what configuration of FLIRT could work to Wrexham?

+

TFW could order 5 more Class 231's which would have made much more sense than the 230's. Stadler would be able to maintain them and would have the commonality with the 231's and 756's in the South. Further down the line if Merseyrail take over the line with 777's, they can easily be relocated to cover routes in the South.
I'm not sure if they will have the fuel range to do a full days diagram, but it wouldn't be far off.

Yes that would seem the simple solution (not at the time plans were laid). Though FLIRTS are not cheap. My questions are - is a 231 short enough to fit on platforms ?, OK maybe a 3 or 2 car variant ?. Do they have the acceleration ? - I suspect they very much will have (even 4car but I think 2cars with all four spaces in the motive power vehicle having 4 engines or 3 engines and one battery would do it).

 

[Skie]

That'll be the same 777s that also don't seem to manage to go a day without failing? Not quite sure how that helps with the latter part of your post

Almost entirely PIS software related issues that are being actively worked on. Given they’d need to order and build more battery units to cover this extension, I can’t imagine that would remain an issue for so long to impact anything to do with transferring the operation to 777s.

And am I right in thinking the 777s come with no loo and 230s do. Also not sure the 777s would have anywhere near the range required on battery ?.

No loos, no.

They have the battery range to get to Wrexham but would need a charge there, or charging on-route at a few intermediate stations with a very slightly (~60 seconds) extended dwell.

 

[alholmes]

230010 lost 21 minutes on its first trip of the day today, 07.32 Wrexham-Bidston, so declared a failure at Bidston and returned to depot.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

A training unit was used to replace 230010 which failed this morning, the replacement unit 007 i think has now also failed

 

[DLAYKEGER]

A training unit was used to replace 230010 which failed this morning, the replacement unit 007 i think has now also failed

With the cancellations this morning thats a 2hr gap in service, which is not great. I am starting to think I am now only be able risk the service 1 day a week, until either a timetable recast that provides a buffer (an every 45min service instead of the promised 30 min service) or 777s are implemented and they go around the wirral line loop giving a buffer. To have 2 failures in one day is a disaster

 

[Wyrleybart]

With the cancellations this morning thats a 2hr gap in service, which is not great. I am starting to think I am now only be able risk the service 1 day a week, until either a timetable recast that provides a buffer (an every 45min service instead of the promised 30 min service) or 777s are implemented and they go around the wirral line loop giving a buffer. To have 2 failures in one day is a disaster

The salient point is that youtube videos show 230010 on test runs from Long Marston to Stourbridge Jn and back in June 2021 - less than two years ago. Back then the train and it's four sisters were fresh from a major rebuild and have only started carrying passengers in the last few weeks. So what have the 230s done for the last two years for them to be in less than "ex works condition" ?

I believe TfW bought five pups from Vivarail, whereas WMR only leased their three pups. The point though is that 230002 was demo'd as a two car battery unit at Bo ness, but rfeally should have had the power generator centre car inserted and proved the abilities on the Borderlands whilst the TfW five were still on axle stands at Long Marston.

 

[L401CJF]

So what have the 230s done for the last two years for them to be in less than "ex works condition" ?

Sat around in the open at Birkenhead for god knows how long while the whole project was in limbo. I believe they received some modifications as a result of the "thermal incidents". I do work them but I haven't followed any threads on their build/design etc so don't really know much about them from a technical point - or what has changed since the original design. I'm not sure what issues they're having at the moment, presumably gen set related going by some posts on here.

If its software issues/design flaw/component problems or something, I do wonder what steps would be taken given their manufacturer no longer exists. I'll ask around and see if I can get any more info. The thing is they've proven that when they are working, they work well - the locals like them too over the 150s. Obviously the reliability is the main issue. If the faults can be ironed out, they'll be good little trains.

 

[childwallblues]

With the cancellations this morning thats a 2hr gap in service, which is not great. I am starting to think I am now only be able risk the service 1 day a week, until either a timetable recast that provides a buffer (an every 45min service instead of the promised 30 min service) or 777s are implemented and they go around the wirral line loop giving a buffer. To have 2 failures in one day is a disaster

150280 was running on the other hour.

 

[Zontar]

I think it's got to the point where the priority isn't and shouldn't be the 230s.....its getting a reliable service/timetable. I imagine the regulars won't care right now if it's a 230, 150 or 197.....just get some reliability back.

 

[Techniquest]

Well I'm in the Deeside area and I'm not seeing any major delays showing on RTT, which is just as well because I'm fully expecting to try for a 230 in a bit. I'd be on its current working down to Wrexham, but I ended up in a Starbucks Deeside Parkway first. In this instance, I got my priorities right

If it produces, I'm sure I will feed back this evening

EDIT: D'oh! Spoke too soon. Looked again after a bit more coffee, it's 12 late. Yikes Not that the 150 is doing much better, granted!

EDIT 2: A couple of hours later, and I've had 230010 to Bidston. Just the small matter of Shotton High Level to Hawarden to get for coverage on a 230 one day. Attached is a quick grab of a photo of 230010 at Bidston

 

[CaergwrleKen]

Good job you went on it earlier, last two trips now saying cancelled due to train fault

 

[Techniquest]

Good job you went on it earlier, last two trips now saying cancelled due to train fault

Ouch! I was going back over there earlier, to do Hawarden Bridge station, so I am rather glad that I didn't. It would explain the train crew (drivers I'm sure) who I overheard while getting my snap at Bidston 'I don't know what's wrong with this one'.

I should be doing a trip report for today, so keep an eye out on my trip report thread in the next couple of days if you want to see what I got up to

 

[rich.davies]

Seems to be running with a few minutes delay today on both the 150 and 230 services, still early in the day. Would this be down to an experienced crew on the 230 today?

 

[L401CJF]

Seems to be running with a few minutes delay today on both the 150 and 230 services, still early in the day. Would this be down to an experienced crew on the 230 today?

Cetainly was, one of the regular drivers on the 2nd trip. Really can tell the difference!

 

[CaergwrleKen]

Apparently they are going to be out at weekends from this week

 

[L401CJF]

It's still looking good as of 1500, 230009 is today's unit and is a couple of minutes down but the 150 seems to be around 5 down.

Worth noting that the public times are 1 minute before the times on train crew diagrams, so officially when it's showing 2 late to the public, its only 1 minute late by train crew times. Bizzare I know.

 

[rich.davies]

Well 230009 seems to be enjoying the sun today. Maybe that's helping also

 

[Zontar]

It's still looking good as of 1500, 230009 is today's unit and is a couple of minutes down but the 150 seems to be around 5 down.

Worth noting that the public times are 1 minute before the times on train crew diagrams, so officially when it's showing 2 late to the public, its only 1 minute late by train crew times. Bizzare I know.

One swallow doesn't make a summer as they say. Or in this case, one day without failures after weeks of fails, doesn't make 230s any good.

 

[anthony263]

Someone put a solar panel on the roof for more oomph

 

[Caaardiff]

Spoke too soon. Looks like it failed at Buckley

 

[L401CJF]

One swallow doesn't make a summer as they say. Or in this case, one day without failures after weeks of fails, doesn't make 230s any good.

I'm not talking about failures here, the point I'm making is to those who like to complain on this thread every time its a bit late saying that the 230 "can't keep to time" - clearly they can.

 

[Zontar]

I'm not talking about failures here, the point I'm making is to those who like to complain on this thread every time its a bit late saying that the 230 "can't keep to time" - clearly they can.

I don't think anyone likes to complain. It's just facts.
Keeping time for a couple of trips isn't really a great achievement to be honest, in fact it's highly embarrassing.

 

[L401CJF]

I don't think anyone likes to complain. It's just facts.
Keeping time for a couple of trips isn't really a great achievement to be honest, in fact it's highly embarrassing.

It will remain that way until all crew are comfortable/used to working them unfortunately. With an experienced crew onboard, such as the first 8 hours of service today, it speaks for itself.

I'm not saying its a great achievement, I'm saying they are capable of keeping to time.

 

[Zontar]

It will remain that way until all crew are comfortable/used to working them unfortunately. With an experienced crew onboard, such as the first 8 hours of service today, it speaks for itself.

I'm not saying its a great achievement, I'm saying they are capable of keeping to time.

Ok. I think everyone will be more interested when they can do that consistently. I.e more than one day

 

[zwk500]

I'm not talking about failures here, the point I'm making is to those who like to complain on this thread every time its a bit late saying that the 230 "can't keep to time" - clearly they can.

But can they keep to time for more than 1 run? People want reliable trains more than they want fast trains.

 

[L401CJF]

Ok. I think everyone will be more interested when they can do that consistently. I.e more than one day

I agree, and I'm sure it will with time. I did notice today there are posters up at stations along the line regarding the introduction of new trains and to expect disruption (or similar), but I didn't quite have chance to read it properly.

But can they keep to time for more than 1 run? People want reliable trains more than they want fast trains.

4 round trips today managed fine to time (plus a minute or 2 here and there as usual for the line).

Clearly there have been various issues lately with failed trains. I'm still not sure what these issues have been exactly, as i've not seen anybody able to give an answer (except for messroom gossip!) but clearly they've not been major failures as the same units keep coming back out the next day. I would assume partly train crew being unable to identify/rectify a fault being one issue due to inexperience. I suppose there could be software issues or something that could be rectified in future? Who knows - but as soon as I get an update I'll post it here.

The thing is when they're behaving themselves and have a confident crew, they really are great - it's just little niggles that seem to be ruining things at the moment.

I do feel for the passengers on the line -
I have lived local to the line for years and been a regular user my whole life. In those years it has been a number of operators and various fleets including RR, First North Western and Arriva. I used to use it for school daily a while back, and in more recent years used it to commute to work. It has always been a poor service and has never been overly reliable. At one point in 153 days it was almost guaranteed daily for the service to turn back at Shotton frequently. At least now there are CIS screens at stations so you know if it's coming! Back then it was a waiting game!

I've got everything crossed hoping that once these units bed in, and when the 2tph frequency eventually comes in, the locals will finally have a proper service.

 

[zwk500]

I agree, and I'm sure it will with time. I did notice today there are posters up at stations along the line regarding the introduction of new trains and to expect disruption (or similar), but I didn't quite have chance to read it properly.

I've got everything crossed hoping that once these units bed in, and when the 2tph frequency eventually comes in, the locals will finally have a proper service.

Thanks for the info, hopefully they bed in alright. Presumably the existing tight times for the round trip don't help as resilience is hard to build in.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

What a shame almost made it today

 

[L401CJF]

A question for those who may be clued up - I'm not familiar with the Marston Vale 230s and their introduction. I have heard they weren't brilliant.

Is anybody able to say if they were more/less reliable in their early days? I know they're different to TFWs 230s so arnt a direct comparison, I'm just curious to the level of disruption those ones caused in their initial months.