GWR Class 769 information. (Units no longer with GWR - Off Lease March 23)

[craigybagel]

I might be alone in this, but I find it a great shame these units weren't a success in GWRland. They're certainly a suitable stop gap and when they work, seem to work quite well.

Northerns units seem to have entered squadron service with little spectacle and appear to be reasonably well bedded in. On the handful of occasions I've tried to track them down, there always seems to be atleast 6 in service. It surprises me that there's this much variation in the fleet - clearly they were a disaster for TfW also.

The Northern units were a disaster too. They entered service several years late, and even then it took a long time before they could reliably get a full 6 diagrams a day.

 

[Greybeard33]

The Northern units were a disaster to. They entered service several years late, and even then it took a long time before they could reliably get a full 6 diagrams a day.

6 diagrams a day from Northern's fleet of 8 769s? Really? There were only 3 out today.

 

[craigybagel]

6 diagrams a day from Northern's fleet of 8 769s? Really? There were only 3 out today.

I guess that proves my point even better.....

The Northern units were more of a success than GWR's in that they did eventually enter service. But it certainly wasn't with "little spectacle".

 

[Deepgreen]

I might be alone in this, but I find it a great shame these units weren't a success in GWRland. They're certainly a suitable stop gap and when they work, seem to work quite well.

Northerns units seem to have entered squadron service with little spectacle and appear to be reasonably well bedded in. On the handful of occasions I've tried to track them down, there always seems to be atleast 6 in service. It surprises me that there's this much variation in the fleet - clearly they were a disaster for TfW also.

You are not alone - as a North Downs line resident I had hoped fervently that they would be a good replacement for the Turbos - four cars, bi-mode and with airy interiors. Platforms extended and marked out with four zones, even if wrongly in one case - Dorking West's EB reversed zoning will presumably live on for decades as a sad memorial to the 769s! The railway's ability to convert trains for alternative uses must surely dwindle as skills are lost AND as equipment becomes ever more complicated and delicate, meeting ever more stringent and numerous standards. A great shame and a terrible waste.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You are not alone - as a North Downs line resident I had hoped fervently that they would be a good replacement for the Turbos - four cars, bi-mode and with airy interiors.

I hate to imagine what’d have happened if they too turned out to have no first class antimacassars.

 

[Towers]

Steam?

No wonder they're complicated: 25Kv A.C.; 750v D.C.; diesel; and kettle power too!

 

[Deepgreen]

I hate to imagine what’d have happened if they too turned out to have no first class antimacassars.

Ha! Actually, they had excellent first class labelling - a full yellow stripe, enlarged by the doors, and window labels - I don't see why that couldn't be applied to the Turbos in refurbishment/refresh too. I wasn't lucky enough to go on one so have no idea of the interior.

 

[driverd]

I guess that proves my point even better.....

The Northern units were more of a success than GWR's in that they did eventually enter service. But it certainly wasn't with "little spectacle".

In fairness though, they didn't seem to be a total disaster in the way TfWs units did and certainly didn't drag on as long as the introduction of 196/197/701. To say they're a more complex project than a new fleet, I'd suggest that bodes pretty well.

Once the teething issues you get with almost all and any stock were dealt with, they seem to have settled in reasonably well.

I wouldn't say the odd day where availability is low (for such a small fleet) is to be unexpected - and let's not forget that just because 3 of 6 units are out, doesn't mean only 3 are working - it could be due to many reasons (train crew traction knowledge etc) that some have stayed on depot. If we go by spectacular, mid-diagram failures, northerns units seem to fare pretty well - especially taken in comparison to TfW 769s, but even when considered against other new fleets.

 

[FGW_DID]

I hate to imagine what’d have happened if they too turned out to have no first class antimacassars.

 

[The_Train]

Those were the last two vehicles from 769949.

769930 & 959 should both be gone by end of week.

Vehicle 77348 of 769930 departs Reading TCD.

View attachment 136725View attachment 136726View attachment 136727

Thanks for these updates

 

[FGW_DID]

Thanks for these updates

No worries!

Last 2 vehicles of 769930 departed this morning. 769959 is now in position awaiting it's turn. Come this time Friday, Reading should be a 769 free zone!

 

[Melancholia]

No worries!

Last 2 vehicles of 769930 departed this morning. 769959 is now in position awaiting it's turn. Come this time Friday, Reading should be a 769 free zone!

Out come the 769s, in come the 230s!

At least the 230s are shorter, so will take up less space

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Out come the 769s, in come the 230s!

At least the 230s are shorter, so will take up less space

Yes, it’s as if the TOC has to have at least one type of knackered converted hand-me-down to be happy.

 

[Benjwri]

Yes, it’s as if the TOC has to have at least one type of knackered converted hand-me-down to be happy.

To be fair the Class 230 is a bit of a special case, running a service on a quite quiet line to test a new techno

 

[Greybeard33]

I wouldn't say the odd day where availability is low (for such a small fleet) is to be unexpected - and let's not forget that just because 3 of 6 units are out, doesn't mean only 3 are working - it could be due to many reasons (train crew traction knowledge etc) that some have stayed on depot. If we go by spectacular, mid-diagram failures, northerns units seem to fare pretty well - especially taken in comparison to TfW 769s, but even when considered against other new fleets.

Northern's current LTP May - Dec 2023 unit diagrams show two 769s on maintenance at Wolverton, two on exams at Allerton and only four in traffic. Only 50% fleet availability even without any failures.

May 2023 Unit Diagrams - a Freedom of Information request to Northern Trains Limited

Please could you provide me with the unit diagrams for the upcoming May 2023 timetable, Yours faithfully, Jonathan Sculley

www.whatdotheyknow.com

 

[Deepgreen]

To be fair the Class 230 is a bit of a special case, running a service on a quite quiet line to test a new techno

Sorry, I must have missed something here - where will the 230s be running? I feel I should know this...

 

[Mollman]

Sorry, I must have missed something here - where will the 230s be running? I feel I should know this...

Greenford branch initially, full thread here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-230-information-movements-discussion.248024/

 

[Bob Price]

They also bought the LNWR ones from the Bedford line with a view to possible conversations if the trial succeeds. Henley, Marlow, etc

 

[Deepgreen]

Greenford branch initially, full thread here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-230-information-movements-discussion.248024/

Of course, yes - thanks. Nearly back on LU metals!

 

[TurboMan]

The last two vehicles (77455 and 62973 from 769959) left Reading TCD this morning. So no more GWR 769s.

 

[Siemens Staines]

There is a weird irony in 769959 not crossing Nuneham viaduct to Long Marston, as planned, on the day it closed and its last vehicles being moved by road on the day it has re-opened.

 

[The_Train]

The only ex GWR one I have away from Long Marston now is 769927. My last record has it having moved to Wolverton in April 2022 - is it still there or have I missed a move back out of Wolverton?

 

[D365]

Yes, it’s as if the TOC has to have at least one type of knackered converted hand-me-down to be happy.

The ’D Stock’ portion of the Class 230s has never been the weak point… unlike the 319s which were often found to be suffering with metal corrosion.

 

[FGW_DID]

A colleagues photo’s of the last bits of 769959 - the last GWR 769 to leave Reading TCD!

 

[Dan G]

Nice pictures.

After 97 pages I've somewhat forgotten; what service enhancements would this fleet have delivered had it been introduced?

 

[JonathanH]

After 97 pages I've somewhat forgotten; what service enhancements would this fleet have delivered had it been introduced?

The enhancements would have been
* A bit more space with 80m trains rather than 69m trains
* Refreshed interiors, although Turbos have recently had this upgrade
* A train that could use the third rail or overheads where installed
* A more frequent service because the fleet size was larger than the Turbos (although those plans for 3tph on the North Downs and an extra unit on the Basingstoke route were pulled)

On the other hand there would also have been:
* Slower journeys because the performance wasn't as good as a Turbo
* Less reliable journeys as the trains were prone to failures
* Lower and less comfortable seats - many people do not like the proportions of 'Ashbourne' seats
* Not so good passenger seat layout, as the Turbo saloons are better than Mark 3 derived units
* Apparently a poorer work environment for the staff than offered by Turbos.

On balance it seems reasonable to say that LTV passengers and the staff have dodged a bullet with these trains not entering service.

 

[Dan G]

So the 3tph plan for the North Downs Line was dropped before the 769s themselves were?

I also saw a suggestion that they'd work some Thames Valley branch lines, thus releasing a few more Turbos for the West. Did the failure of that to happen have any impact in the west in terms of preventing planned service enhancements? I guess we might have seen less short-forming when Turbo availability seemed limited recently (now apparently overcome).

 

[JonathanH]

So the 3tph plan for the North Downs Line was dropped before the 769s themselves were?

Yes. Not only was it not needed, but there was a realisation that the availability of 769s would be less than originally hoped.

I also saw a suggestion that they'd work some Thames Valley branch lines, thus releasing a few more Turbos for the West.

19 769s for 16 diagrams planned at first - 10 North Downs, 4 Basingstoke, 1 Henley, 1 Bourne End (peak only). (The fourth Basingstoke was originally the unit for the Windsor line.), releasing 16 3-car 165s.

Did the failure of that to happen have any impact in the west in terms of preventing planned service enhancements?

Yes, 16 3-car 165s not available to take over services in the West. Some of the additional services that had been planned might have to use different stock. In practice, two of these 165s have been released to the West, as some services have been thinned out - eg on the North Downs.

 

[Minstral25]

Yes. Not only was it not needed, but there was a realisation that the availability of 769s would be less than originally hoped.

Not sure about not needed but at least there is a clever plan knocking around that will get some of the benefits of 3tph, subject to approval of course by Network Rail and DfT.

19 769s for 16 diagrams planned at first - 10 North Downs, 4 Basingstoke, 1 Henley, 1 Bourne End (peak only). (The fourth Basingstoke was originally the unit for the Windsor line.), releasing 16 3-car 165s.


Yes, 16 3-car 165s not available to take over services in the West. Some of the additional services that had been planned might have to use different stock. In practice, two of these 165s have been released to the West, as some services have been thinned out - eg on the North Downs.

North Downs was 8 diagrams and is now 7, albeit not at 3tph.

 

[JonathanH]

North Downs was 8 diagrams and is now 7, albeit not at 3tph.

Yes, 10 were needed for 3tph.