Un-user friendly railway: Wrongly branded trains

[bathbuses]

How are Great Western Railway allowed to run trains around with "First Great Western" written on the side of them?
I've always thought this was wrong, and today I witnessed a perfect example of why. A couple from abroad were at Bristol Temple Meads with a ticket that said they could only use Great Western Railway trains to Cardiff. They saw that the train in the platform was evidently belonging to another company called First Great Western and didn't think they could use it. I overheard and assured them they could.
Now most people will probably know it's the same company, but not everyone will, particularly those from abroad or very inexperienced/nervous travelling by rail.
I know there are reasons for not overhauling the whole livery of every train, but surely about 6 or 7 years after. the rebrand there is absolutely no excuse for the vinyls having not been replaced to show the correct company name

 

[zwk500]

It's interesting which companies are very brand-sensitive and which don't seem to care an awful lot. In terms of being 'allowed' the companies can paint them what they like, by and large. Although they should get them converted within a year or so, it wasn't unknown for grouping liveries to survive well into BR days so it's not entirely new.

It's a good example though of how things like consistent branding and presentation of information are important - presumably the platform screens were only showing 'Operated by Great Western Railway' in a less obvious place, or as part of the scrolling message?

 

[hexagon789]

Aren't they still legally 'First Great Western Limited' with GWR being simply a brand?

 

[bathbuses]

Aren't they still legally 'First Great Western Limited' with GWR being simply a brand?

Very possibly
Although if it's going to be called "a Great Western Railway service" then the train should surely have Great Western Railway written on the side
I was probably wrong to say the company name should be on the train, it should be the brand of the service

 

[williamn]

A friend of mine who has recently started commuting from Haywards Heath was similarly confused as to why a Southern service was a Gatwick Express train.

 

[XAM2175]

Aren't they still legally 'First Great Western Limited' with GWR being simply a brand?

First Greater Western Ltd, but the OP's point stands: the brand used on the ticket restriction is the brand the passenger should see on the train.

 

[bathbuses]

It's interesting which companies are very brand-sensitive and which don't seem to care an awful lot. In terms of being 'allowed' the companies can paint them what they like, by and large. Although they should get them converted within a year or so, it wasn't unknown for grouping liveries to survive well into BR days so it's not entirely new.

It's a good example though of how things like consistent branding and presentation of information are important - presumably the platform screens were only showing 'Operated by Great Western Railway' in a less obvious place, or as part of the scrolling message?

I'm not particularly bothered about the train being a different colour and so on (although of course it would be nice if the liveries were consistent)
The most important thing is that the correct name of the brand is written somewhere on the train
In my opinion, from the very first day that the announcer started calling the trains a GWR service there should have been no First Great Western lettering left on the trains. Then very soon after on both sides of each carriage it should have said GWR somewhere, even if just a sticker on the windows

 

[zwk500]

I'm not particularly bothered about the train being a different colour and so on (although of course it would be nice if the liveries were consistent)
The most important thing is that the correct name of the brand is written somewhere on the train

Agree

In my opinion, from the very first day that the announcer started calling the trains a GWR service there should have been no First Great Western lettering left on the trains. Then very soon after on both sides of each carriage it should have said GWR somewhere, even if just a sticker on the windows

The very next day isn't particularly realistic, The depot won't have time to clear every last sticker off every last unit overnight. However certainly after a month all units should have visited the depot and the changes should have been able to be made.

 

[bathbuses]

The very next day isn't particularly realistic, The depot won't have time to clear every last sticker off every last unit overnight. However certainly after a month all units should have visited the depot and the changes should have been able to be made.

They could have taken all FGW lettering off before the official rebrand
I think having no branding at all when the changeover happens is much better than having the wrong branding, if you get what I mean

 

[zwk500]

They could have taken all FGW lettering off before the official rebrand
I think having no branding at all when the changeover happens is much better than having the wrong branding, if you get what I mean

It's possible - Virgin converted all their liveries shortly before the franchise change to make sure their name was removed, but it does take a lot of forward planning and several weeks of cycling units through to ensure they're all done ready. As this was only a rebranding not a franchise change from the TOC's perspective the priority would have been low. I certainly remember when London Midland Changed to LNR the most trains had was black stickers over the logos that gradually peeled off for quite some time.

 

[bathbuses]

It's possible - Virgin converted all their liveries shortly before the franchise change to make sure their name was removed, but it does take a lot of forward planning and several weeks of cycling units through to ensure they're all done ready. As this was only a rebranding not a franchise change from the TOC's perspective the priority would have been low. I certainly remember when London Midland Changed to LNR the most trains had was black stickers over the logos that gradually peeled off for quite some time.

I think the fact it was low priority is the issue here, and rules probably need to be introduced to make it a priority. If it takes 2 months to get all the branding removed before the changeover, so be it, but there should never be a train going round with incorrect branding on it. The number one reason why people I know would be put off using the train is finding it too confusing. Everything possible should be done so that is not the case.

 

[james_the_xv]

Wider use of temporary stickers for door windows might be useful. Can be applied to all units within a couple of days by depot staff before a permanent/semi-permanent rebranding can take place. Even issue a stack to Guards/TMs to replace ones that are ripped off by passengers.

It should also be clearly stated by station announcements and departure boards the operator/branding of the service? I highly doubt the departure boards for the service OP was describing said 'First Great Western' - All announcements and boards would have been for GWR, but I do understand the confusion for the passengers involved.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

For every example of a train with the "wrong branding" on it, you can probably find someone who got very confused back in the days of everything being blue and grey whether it was an inter-city express or a local stopper. Though we can't expect every passenger to be well versed on the history of the various train operating companies.

This confusion isn't new though. I think back to the early 1990s when several services in West Yorkshire were branded as "Metro-Train" on the side, and even announced as such over the PA system at Leeds... but there was every chance that the unit operating that service wouldn't say "Metro Train" on it anywhere despite all of it being operated by British Rail.

Some operators display headcodes on some of their rolling stock, wider public display of these would at least prevent some of the cases of confusion in the same way that flight numbers do. Wouldn't help for operator-specific but not train-specific tickets, but would work for advances.

 

[bathbuses]

Wider use of temporary stickers for door windows might be useful. Can be applied to all units within a couple of days by depot staff before a permanent/semi-permanent rebranding can take place. Even issue a stack to Guards/TMs to replace ones that are ripped off by passengers.

It should also be clearly stated by station announcements and departure boards the operator/branding of the service? I highly doubt the departure boards for the service OP was describing said 'First Great Western' - All announcements and boards would have been for GWR, but I do understand the confusion for the passengers involved.

Yeah of course announcements/departure boards were saying GWR, and I think at a station where there's just two platforms etc.. that's probably enough to avoid confusion. But when you've got somewhere like Temple Meads where there's so much going on and so many trains and platforms and announcements, confusion is more likely

It's also worth bearing in mind that announcements should not be relied on if providing information to people from different countries, as reading in a foreign language can be much easier than listening. When on the train, the couple I was talking about were reading off the screens rather than listening to the announcements

 

[dk1]

I often get a bus in my home city with wrong route colour coding or branding on the side. Does it really matter as long as it has the correct number & takes me where I want to go?

 

[bathbuses]

I often get a bus in my home city with wrong route colour coding or branding on the side. Does it really matter as long as it has the correct number & takes me where I want to go?

But is there the chance that someone not in the know could not get on that bus because they think it belongs to a different company to who they bought their online ticket with?
I suppose having the route number clearly displayed on the front helps to alleviate this issue to a large extent on buses, because if it's the right number it's probably the right company

 

[dk1]

But is there the chance that someone not in the know could not get on that bus because they think it belongs to a different company to who they bought their online ticket with?
I suppose having the route number clearly displayed on the front helps to alleviate this issue to a large extent on buses, because if it's the right number it's probably the right company

There’s always a case of that anywhere as many people don’t seem to pay attention.

 

[kristiang85]

I often get a bus in my home city with wrong route colour coding or branding on the side. Does it really matter as long as it has the correct number & takes me where I want to go?

It does matter when passengers are under strict conditions to get the right operator. Either they might not get on a perfectly valid train as the name isn't correct, or they will assume a slight difference is ok (eg "Great Western" Vs "south western").

Obviously we on here know the difference very well, but it will be confusing for the majority of non regular users, especially those caught out by the different operators. If the railway expects passengers to be on the ball, they should lead by example.

 

[Ian79]

A few years back now, but for a while there was an HST in full "East Midlands Trains" livery running on the East Coast Mainline. I can't remember what the franchise was at the time but it looked very out of place at Kings Cross and York, and caused a lot of confusion at Peterborough....

 

[RailWonderer]

I've seen a 745/1 turn up at Chelmsford with 'Stansted express' on the side, which confused a passenger who said out loud why the Stansted express was stopping there.

I often get a bus in my home city with wrong route colour coding or branding on the side. Does it really matter as long as it has the correct number & takes me where I want to go?

I've never understood why bus companies put advertising for one route on when it is being used on another route when they know they'll never keep the bus on the same route all the time.

 

[Llanigraham]

They are going to have a problem in Wales then, where TfW are currently running trains on loan from Northern!

 

[bathbuses]

They are going to have a problem in Wales then, where TfW are currently running trains on loan from Northern!

Absolutely should not have Northern written on the side
Or at the very least there should be some stickers on the windows that say on loan to TFW. A fairly quick job to install I should think when they arrived on loan
There could perhaps also be allowances made if they were to run in multiple with a clearly branded Tfw unit

 

[josh-j]

I often get a bus in my home city with wrong route colour coding or branding on the side. Does it really matter as long as it has the correct number & takes me where I want to go?

I think it does matter, although not as much as the service actually existing and getting you where you need to go.

Proper branding gives a sense of coherency and reliability - that this is a particular type of service and you know what to expect from it. I think that probably helps, even if subconsciously, in getting people to use and care about public transport.

Mind you a sense of reliability doesn't go very far if every other train is cancelled but you know what I mean!

 

[WizCastro197]

A friend of mine who has recently started commuting from Haywards Heath was similarly confused as to why a Southern service was a Gatwick Express train.

Note that PIS boards denote it’s a southern service ‘formed of GX coaches’, which if you don’t know what GX is, then I get that can be confusing.

What GWR I think should’ve done from the get go, is adopt a similar programme to SWR, cover all outside references to the previous franchise/ I guess brand in this sense, (like how they pasted SWR of SWT) then slowly cycle trains through repainting/vinyling.

 

[HSTEd]

Maybe we should just pick a colour (with a contrasting door colour) and then just paint all rolling stock that.

I don't think the branding really adds anything, so why bother?

 

[Krokodil]

Of all the problems on today's railway, I can't get worked up about "First Great Western" being written on a train.

I'd sooner see the TOC-specific fares abolished. Most passengers can't tell the difference between a green train and a blue train anyway.

 

[kristiang85]

I'd sooner see the TOC-specific fares abolished.

Well yes this is the dream. It should not cost more to get from A to B depending which operator you get. But whilst we have this system, and passengers are expected to adhere to it, the TOCs should be held to the same standards.

 

[geoffk]

Maybe we should just pick a colour (with a contrasting door colour) and then just paint all rolling stock that.

I don't think the branding really adds anything, so why bother?

Yes. Scotland had the right idea. A standard livery with the logo of the operator under the words "ScotRail is operated by...."

 

[Gaelan]

Yes. Scotland had the right idea. A standard livery with the logo of the operator under the words "ScotRail is operated by...."

Isn't England doing something similar now with the "generic brands" (I forget the official term) that allowed Northern, SE, and TPE to go OLR without a rebrand?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

How are Great Western Railway allowed to run trains around with "First Great Western" written on the side of them?

Dunno dude. How are you allowed to post as "bathbuses" when you're presumably not a bus operator from Bath?

Aren't they still legally 'First Great Western Limited' with GWR being simply a brand?

First Greater Western Ltd, I believe.