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Locomotives destroyed in World War 2

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778

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I know the railways were badly damaged by bombing raids in World War 2, but I am not sure how many locomotives were destroyed? The only one I know of is an A4 (Sir Ralph Wedgwood), when York station was hit by a bomb in 1942.

Were locomotives hidden away at unusual locations to avoid the bombing raids?
 
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zwk500

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I know the railways were badly damaged by bombing raids in World War 2, but I am not sure how many locomotives were destroyed? The only one I know of is an A4 (Sir Ralph Wedgwood), when York station was hit by a bomb in 1942.
A definitive list may be possible, depends if the records have survived. There were some locos damaged and repaired, some damaged and replaced, some may have even been rebuilt into other forms, and of course some were simply struck off the records.
Were locomotives hidden away at unusual locations to avoid the bombing raids?
I don't know about being preemptively moved, but there are stories of trains being driven sharply into tunnels when enemy planes appeared.
 

778

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A definitive list may be possible, depends if the records have survived. There were some locos damaged and repaired, some damaged and replaced, some may have even been rebuilt into other forms, and of course some were simply struck off the records.

I don't know about being preemptively moved, but there are stories of trains being driven sharply into tunnels when enemy planes appeared.
Was one of the reasons why locos were painted black during the war, was to make them less obvious to bombers?
 

zwk500

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Was one of the reasons why locos were painted black during the war, was to make them less obvious to bombers?
Quite likely yes. Maintenance and the simpler costs of all-over black (no lining to worry about) were also factors.

If you do a bit of poking you may well find some things, such as this LNER forum discussion: https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=847. Be prepared for it to be a 'piecing together' exercise though. I don't know how comprehensive the NRM archives would be on this subject.
 

Sir Felix Pole

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GWR 4911 'Bowden Hall' received a direct hit at Keyham during the Plymouth Blitz on 29/04/41, and scrapped on the spot.

Bowden Hall

Laira Depot did disperse its top-link locos during the worst of the raids, including 'Castles' on the Tavistock branch (which were permitted as far as Yelverton).
 

StephenHunter

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They were common targets for fighter bombers and fighters. RAF Hornchurch claimed over 200 destroyed by their pilots.

You had a few end up at the bottom of the ocean too when the ships transporting them were sunk.
 

Gloster

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The GWR lost Hall 4911 and 0-6-0T 1729, plus the tender to 4358. The SR lost T14 458.

There were also a number of locos that went abroad and never returned.
 

Taunton

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Has always surprised me how few locos were actually destroyed, compared to Germany (and even France). The Southern seemed to lose far more emu cars, but the figures are difficult to get as quite a number of the replacements built post-war had the same numbers and were to the same design. Whether a loco was written off or regarded as rebuilt seems to depend as much on accountancy practice as engineering reality, and possibly as well workshop capacity and government attitude to compensation that year, all of which changed as things progressed.

The locos lost at sea being sent overseas had all, I believe, been removed as railway assets beforehand.

Hall 4911 was indeed badly damaged at Plymouth, but there are a couple of photographs of it, contrary to other comment it does not look a direct hit (unless a small one), more blast damage, and I'm sure Swindon has rebuilt worse from accidents.
 

zwk500

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Has always surprised me how few locos were actually destroyed, compared to Germany (and even France). The Southern seemed to lose far more emu cars, but the figures are difficult to get as quite a number of the replacements built post-war had the same numbers and were to the same design. Whether a loco was written off or regarded as rebuilt seems to depend as much on accountancy practice as engineering reality, and possibly as well workshop capacity and government attitude to compensation that year, all of which changed as things progressed.
Worth remembering that aerial bombing was very imprecise, and vast amounts of bombs never actually exploded. Whereas Germany and France suffered a direct land campaign (France twice), and sabotage was used quite regularly whereas in the UK the German espionage network never really got going and eventually MI5 had every single agent identified.
 

randyrippley

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What was the loco destroyed at Waterloo?

And then there was the one which had a boiler explosion and took the attacking aircraft down............
Another I can think of was the Soham explosion

Half the time the Germans were making it up anyway: my parents were quite amused by Lord HawHaws announcement of the "destruction of the marshalling yards at Montacute" and "bombing of the docks at Milborne Port"
 

Harvester

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I know the railways were badly damaged by bombing raids in World War 2, but I am not sure how many locomotives were destroyed? The only one I know of is an A4 (Sir Ralph Wedgwood), when York station was hit by a bomb in 1942.

Were locomotives hidden away at unusual locations to avoid the bombing raids?
A4 4469 just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was ex-works from Doncaster, being run in on local trains, and was stabling overnight at York north shed. It took the full blast from a HE bomb while on shed.
 

StephenHunter

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Worth remembering that aerial bombing was very imprecise, and vast amounts of bombs never actually exploded. Whereas Germany and France suffered a direct land campaign (France twice), and sabotage was used quite regularly whereas in the UK the German espionage network never really got going and eventually MI5 had every single agent identified.

The one thing that the Germans had that could do precision dive bombing was the Stuka and that was rather slow. It got withdrawn rather quickly from operations over Britain due to heavy losses.

Aerial gunnery was a different kettle of fish and there is plenty of footage of locomotives coming under fire.
 

zwk500

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The one thing that the Germans had that could do precision dive bombing was the Stuka and that was rather slow. It got withdrawn rather quickly from operations over Britain due to heavy losses.
The Stukas were really for military targets though, due to the risk as they pulled out of the dive. They were seriously impressive though, up until they came up against the RAF Hurricanes and Spitfires.
Aerial gunnery was a different kettle of fish and there is plenty of footage of locomotives coming under fire.
Oh yes, a good ME109 pilot was deadly, and a bombe flying low level would have multiple turrets that could take potshots.
 

Gloster

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What was the loco destroyed at Waterloo?

And then there was the one which had a boiler explosion and took the attacking aircraft down............
Another I can think of was the Soham explosion

Half the time the Germans were making it up anyway: my parents were quite amused by Lord HawHaws announcement of the "destruction of the marshalling yards at Montacute" and "bombing of the docks at Milborne Port"

LBSCR D3 was attacked on or around 26 November 1942 (*) by two aircraft (Fw190) and the explosion when the first aircraft‘s cannon shells hit the boiler seems to have caused the second to crash, killing the pilot, Oberfedwebel Heinz Bierwirth. (* - There is a bit of doubt about the exact date: I have seen four given, all being consecutive.)
 

randyrippley

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I wonder are you thinking of T14 458, which was destroyed on Nine Elms shed?
No, I thought a loco was destroyed in the same raid as closed the W&C line 9/12/1940 but at the moment I can't find a reference

What I have found are a couple of interesting reports
First Blood & Custard have a list of damaged Southern EMUs at

Second, Radio Bristol has a 60 page PDF file relating to damage on the LMS

I've not read either properly but they look worth investigating
 

Harvester

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I know LNER A4 ‘Sir Ralph Wedgwood’ got bomb damaged, and was scrapped as a result.
The loco was cut-up at Doncaster Works, but surprisingly the tender was put aside and eventually repaired. It was put back into service in 1945 attached to newly built Thompson A2/1 3696 Highland Chieftain.
 

Gloster

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No, I thought a loco was destroyed in the same raid as closed the W&C line 9/12/1940 but at the moment I can't find a reference

What I have found are a couple of interesting reports
First Blood & Custard have a list of damaged Southern EMUs at

Second, Radio Bristol has a 60 page PDF file relating to damage on the LMS

I've not read either properly but they look worth investigating

One of the former W&C locos was damaged at Durnsford Road, where it normally worked, on 12 October 1940, but was repaired.
 

Iskra

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Has always surprised me how few locos were actually destroyed, compared to Germany (and even France). The Southern seemed to lose far more emu cars, but the figures are difficult to get as quite a number of the replacements built post-war had the same numbers and were to the same design. Whether a loco was written off or regarded as rebuilt seems to depend as much on accountancy practice as engineering reality, and possibly as well workshop capacity and government attitude to compensation that year, all of which changed as things progressed.

The locos lost at sea being sent overseas had all, I believe, been removed as railway assets beforehand.

Hall 4911 was indeed badly damaged at Plymouth, but there are a couple of photographs of it, contrary to other comment it does not look a direct hit (unless a small one), more blast damage, and I'm sure Swindon has rebuilt worse from accidents.
Despite the mythology (/propoganda) surrounding the Blitz and Battle of Britain- The Luftwaffe (and Italian) bombing campaign(s) were actually pretty tiny. Neither the Luftwaffe or the Regia Aeronautica used dedicated strategic bombers, instead using aircraft designed for tactical army support with small bomb loads and even by the time of the Blitz, the Luftwaffe were worn down enough after the Battle of France and suffering enough shortages to be using concrete bombs, which are less effective than the metal versions. Equally, the air fleets used might look impressive on paper but serviceability rates were extremely poor.
 

Sir Felix Pole

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Not a locomotive, but 'Brighton Belle' set 3052 was badly damaged at London Victoria by a direct hit on the station on 09/10/40. The service was then suspended for the duration and all units stored at Crystal Palace (HL) station.
 

Sm5

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In a Middleton Press book on the West Croydon - Epsom line theres a picture of a BIL unit bomb damaged at West Croydon, which includes the front end gone, and damage to the UP platform 3.
If you stand on P4 at the London end, and look towards platform 3 you can still see the repair to the platform which put a distinct “bump” in the platform.
 

778

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LBSCR D3 was attacked on or around 26 November 1942 (*) by two aircraft (Fw190) and the explosion when the first aircraft‘s cannon shells hit the boiler seems to have caused the second to crash, killing the pilot, Oberfedwebel Heinz Bierwirth. (* - There is a bit of doubt about the exact date: I have seen four given, all being consecutive.)
I am not sure how that could have happened unless the aircraft was flying extremely low? Do we know if the loco crew survived the attack?
 

zwk500

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I am not sure how that could have happened unless the aircraft was flying extremely low? Do we know if the loco crew survived the attack?
According to the LNER forum I linked to, it was indeed flying very low across Romney Marsh (quite usual tactics at that point to do hit-and-runs crossing the channel at low level to avoid radar). The crew apparently jumped clear before the attack, but no source is cited for definite.
 

Ianigsy

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Hall 4911 was indeed badly damaged at Plymouth, but there are a couple of photographs of it, contrary to other comment it does not look a direct hit (unless a small one), more blast damage, and I'm sure Swindon has rebuilt worse from accidents.
It looks to me as if the blast has happened underneath the loco and it’s suspended across a small crater with the last set of tender wheels and the pony truck on the rails. The cab was either removed before the picture was taken or might have been crushed as the loco also seems to have jack-knifed somewhat and twisted with the first set of driving wheels still under the boiler but the second one on the visible side seems forced outwards. Seeing as Swindon was churning Halls out into the 1950s, it was probably just as easy to remove any undamaged components and add another one to the order.

Either way, I admire the optimism of whoever brought the wheelbarrow.

I suspect the main danger to crews will have been from fighter pilots spotting the firebox glow in blacked out countryside.
 

Strathclyder

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Not locomotives or heavy rail generally, but numerous trams of various networks/systems were destroyed during the Blitz. To cite at least one example of this, at least two Glasgow Coronations were destroyed in the Clydebank Blitz in March 1941 on Kilbowie Road. The image (attached below) of their scorched hulks amongst the rubble of the surrounding tenaments is one of the most striking Blitz images imho (principally because of how close to home it was).

Dumbarton-Road-Dalmuir-big-half-page1.jpg

You had a few end up at the bottom of the ocean too when the ships transporting them were sunk.
Indeed. Those 8Fs lost when SS Thistlegorm was sunk in the Red Sea in October 1941 come to mind here, but there were doubtless several dozen others lost in this way.
 
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D6130

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It looks to me as if the blast has happened underneath the loco and it’s suspended across a small crater with the last set of tender wheels and the pony truck on the rails. The cab was either removed before the picture was taken or might have been crushed as the loco also seems to have jack-knifed somewhat and twisted with the first set of driving wheels still under the boiler but the second one on the visible side seems forced outwards. Seeing as Swindon was churning Halls out into the 1950s, it was probably just as easy to remove any undamaged components and add another one to the order.

Either way, I admire the optimism of whoever brought the wheelbarrow.

I suspect the main danger to crews will have been from fighter pilots spotting the firebox glow in blacked out countryside.
That's why a large number of tender locomotives were fitted with tarpaulins between the cab roof and tender for use during the hours of darkness. They were also quite handy for keeping the rain out, I would imagine!
 

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We recently saw a plaque at Bramley and Wonersh Station, (now disused), comemorating the attack on a train which killed eight people. I assume a locomotive was involved as it seems the driver were amongst those killed but the fireman survived.


IMG20230214105603.jpg
 

Taunton

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It looks to me as if the blast has happened underneath the loco and it’s suspended across a small crater with the last set of tender wheels and the pony truck on the rails. The cab was either removed before the picture was taken or might have been crushed as the loco also seems to have jack-knifed somewhat and twisted with the first set of driving wheels still under the boiler but the second one on the visible side seems forced outwards. Seeing as Swindon was churning Halls out into the 1950s, it was probably just as easy to remove any undamaged components and add another one to the order.
This is a picture of 4911 damaged at Plymouth

 
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