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Locomotives destroyed in World War 2

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The exile

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And that by the time we had virtually uncontested skies (1944-45) technology (both actual firepower and accuracy) had moved on from the time when the Luftwaffe were regular visitors over here. They also never gad uncontested skies…..

(This was supposed to be a reply to a specific post - somehow got generalised…)
 
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Gloster

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I am not sure how that could have happened unless the aircraft was flying extremely low? Do we know if the loco crew survived the attack?

The second aircraft’s shots ripped the steam dome off and it then flew into the explosion of steam; one wing may have clipped the loco. The fireman was scalded and the driver was shocked, but the passsengers were unhurt; the two aircraft had earlier attacked Ashford shed and killed a fireman. The loco was 2365.
 

The Crab

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Despite the mythology (/propoganda) surrounding the Blitz and Battle of Britain- The Luftwaffe (and Italian) bombing campaign(s) were actually pretty tiny. Neither the Luftwaffe or the Regia Aeronautica used dedicated strategic bombers, instead using aircraft designed for tactical army support with small bomb loads and even by the time of the Blitz, the Luftwaffe were worn down enough after the Battle of France and suffering enough shortages to be using concrete bombs, which are less effective than the metal versions. Equally, the air fleets used might look impressive on paper but serviceability rates were extremely poor.
I don't think "tiny" is the right word.
 

Sm5

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This is a picture of 4911 damaged at Plymouth

It looks to me as if the blast has happened underneath the loco and it’s suspended across a small crater with the last set of tender wheels and the pony truck on the rails. The cab was either removed before the picture was taken or might have been crushed as the loco also seems to have jack-knifed somewhat and twisted with the first set of driving wheels still under the boiler but the second one on the visible side seems forced outwards. Seeing as Swindon was churning Halls out into the 1950s, it was probably just as easy to remove any undamaged components and add another one to the order.

Either way, I admire the optimism of whoever brought the wheelbarrow.

I suspect the main danger to crews will have been from fighter pilots spotting the firebox glow in blacked out countryside.
The rear wheels look like theyve been ripped off their axles, if so the frame will have had substantial damage, and probably damaged the boiler. The wheel spokes itself has parted from its rim and tyre, but yet the coupling rod is twisted and still connected to the crank passing through that rim and tyre !

Theres another picture here, you can see the cab was badly damaged, but the crew survived as they previously took shelter, you can see frameplate twisting in this image..

At that point as you say its not worth repair, replacing it is easier, it would probably be a complete bag of nails thereafter had they fixed it, plus would you trust a boiler thats had a substantial side impact anyway - its minus handrail and top feed piping and the casing has been partially ripped up.. so something substantial went under there…. Its lucky the boiler didnt get penetrated, or maybe it did but the crew reduced the pressure enough prior to taking cover, to prevent it exploding ?

GWR were knocking out 4 Halls a month in 1941.. 6916,17,18,19 were all new to traffic in June 1941, so it was immediately replaced.



in the comments in another picture you can see the wheel rim, minus some spokes…. Thats a pretty substantial hit to do that… I wonder where the nameplate landed ?
 
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341o2

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Many French locomotives were destroyed, some by sabotage. German troops were travelling north for the Normandy landings, what became known as La Batile du Rail took place. Effectively, the entire French network was paralysed due to sabotage, including locomotives being blown up, no mean feat with an armed German guard on the footplate who would shoot first and ask questions afterwards
 

ChiefPlanner

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Not forgetting the serious damage inflicted on the London Transport Network - not just trains but bus and tram casualties.

(426 staff died on duty , and 3000+ injured , rather sobering to say the very least)
 
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Iskra

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Many French locomotives were destroyed, some by sabotage. German troops were travelling north for the Normandy landings, what became known as La Batile du Rail took place. Effectively, the entire French network was paralysed due to sabotage, including locomotives being blown up, no mean feat with an armed German guard on the footplate who would shoot first and ask questions afterwards
I think it became normal practice for trains to run with a wagon ahead of the locomotive with a machine gun set up on it. This also offered somewhat greater protection to the precious locomotive from de-railing sabotage. On the Eastern front they also started running trains with the locomotives in the middle to protect them from being de-railed too.
 

70014IronDuke

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The GWR lost Hall 4911 and 0-6-0T 1729,

There were also a number of locos that went abroad and never returned.
I seem to remember an 0-6-0PT shot up in a Badaeker raid at Westbury (?) I think. Was this 1729?

Maybe 1942 or even 43? Can't remember the aircraft, probably a Ju 88 I suspect.
That's why a large number of tender locomotives were fitted with tarpaulins between the cab roof and tender for use during the hours of darkness. They were also quite handy for keeping the rain out, I would imagine!

And probably far more practical in most cases. Even if an enemy pilot could see the glow from a firebox of a single locomotive on a moving train, actually attacking it would be fraught with danger - flying low-level in the dark?

However, I suppose if you had 50 or more locomotives on a depot, the overall glow might be a more inviting target.

I suspect that the most important effect, however, was to keep the public enthusiastic on maintaining the blackout. If they saw trains running around every night glowing in the dark, it would probably reduce their belief in its effectiveness.
 

Gloster

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I seem to remember an 0-6-0PT shot up in a Badaeker raid at Westbury (?) I think. Was this 1729?

Maybe 1942 or even 43? Can't remember the aircraft, probably a Ju 88 I suspect.


And probably far more practical in most cases. Even if an enemy pilot could see the glow from a firebox of a single locomotive on a moving train, actually attacking it would be fraught with danger - flying low-level in the dark?

However, I suppose if you had 50 or more locomotives on a depot, the overall glow might be a more inviting target.

I suspect that the most important effect, however, was to keep the public enthusiastic on maintaining the blackout. If they saw trains running around every night glowing in the dark, it would probably reduce their belief in its effectiveness.

1729 was at Castle Cary when it was hit on 3 September 1942; the signalbox was also destroyed. General suspicion was that a German aircraft was bimbling around, saw a railway junction and decided it was a target of opportunity, dropped its bombs and the crew headed back for ersatz coffee.

I somehow doubt that Westbury could justify a Baedeker raid: there is nothing of historic interest there.
 

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LSWR 'T9' 30120 was strafed by cannon shells from two Me109s at Wool station in November 1942, hauling a freight from Brockenhurst to Dorchester. The crew received shrapnel wounds but survived. Happily the loco is still with us, awaiting overhaul and return to steam at the Swanage Rly.
 

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I think it became normal practice for trains to run with a wagon ahead of the locomotive with a machine gun set up on it. This also offered somewhat greater protection to the precious locomotive from de-railing sabotage. On the Eastern front they also started running trains with the locomotives in the middle to protect them from being de-railed too.

Presumably the "Ost-Bahn" had a special note in the local traffic Sectional Appendix listing which sections of line were permissible to allow semi-propelling of trains on running lines.

Talking of France in June 1944 , the SNCF was carpet bombed at key locations before the invasion , on top of the efforts of both cheminots and resistance to cause maximum disruption - the simple act of putting sand etc in axle bearings on flat cars for vehicle carrying was very effective I believe.
 

Gloster

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Although there were plenty of ways of sabotaging the railways, such as running locos into turntable pits, one thing that SOE particularly recommended was using small explosive charges on the same part of each loco; I believe the left-hand cylinder was preferred. That way a small amount of explosive could go a long way and it wasn’t possible to cannibalise one loco to repair another.
 

Sm5

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Although there were plenty of ways of sabotaging the railways, such as running locos into turntable pits, one thing that SOE particularly recommended was using small explosive charges on the same part of each loco; I believe the left-hand cylinder was preferred. That way a small amount of explosive could go a long way and it wasn’t possible to cannibalise one loco to repair another.
Putting pennies in the oil feeders was another… wouldnt be found until it ran hot later down the line… water in sandboxes brings a hill climb to an end.

sabotaging straight rail is actually quite hard to produce a derailment, momentum of a train will keep it going and ride over it. There was a good video on line showing this, a train at considerable speed and with a metre gap on one rail just kept going…. But on a curve or a point it becomes quite easy… as has been seen in Ukraine of late.
 

Clarence Yard

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The total of locomotives lost to enemy action by the Big Four was only 8.

The LMS lost CR 4-4-0 14356 at Ladyburn in 1941, the GWR lost 4911 and 1729, as mentioned above, the SR lost T14 458 at Nine Elms in 1940 and the LNER lost J17 8200 at Channelsea in 1944, M&GN 4-4-0 047 at Norwich City and A4 4469 and B16 925 in the York raid in 1942. The frames of the B16 became the float frame at Darlington for the Thompson conversions with the frame freed becoming the next float frame and so on.
 

Iskra

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The total of locomotives lost to enemy action by the Big Four was only 8.

The LMS lost CR 4-4-0 14356 at Ladyburn in 1941, the GWR lost 4911 and 1729, as mentioned above, the SR lost T14 458 at Nine Elms in 1940 and the LNER lost J17 8200 at Channelsea in 1944, M&GN 4-4-0 047 at Norwich City and A4 4469 and B16 925 in the York raid in 1942. The frames of the B16 became the float frame at Darlington for the Thompson conversions with the frame freed becoming the next float frame and so on.
Thanks for providing this excellent information.

Just out of interest, do we know how many were lost to accidents over the same period, possibly due to increased operational pressure, reduced maintenance, inexperienced replacement crews, blackout conditions etc?

Would be interesting to see if more were lost through accidents than enemy action…
 
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Gloster

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One of the imponderables is whether some of the locos that were withdrawn were only moderately damaged, but their age meant that it was decided not to bother repairing them: this might be the case with the Dunalaistair and M&GN 047, both of which were long in the tooth. Meanwhile, other more seriously damaged locos were repaired because they were deemed to have plenty of life left in them. And you had the situation that the railway works were producing large quantities of munitions and materials of war, so they were not entirely free to allocate their resources as they would like.

I have a vague feeling of having read somewhere that a problem with Bowden Hall was that it was the rear of the frame that was damaged, which made repair more difficult. Certainly it seems that the bomb landed very close alongside the cab.
 

70014IronDuke

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1729 was at Castle Cary when it was hit on 3 September 1942; the signalbox was also destroyed. General suspicion was that a German aircraft was bimbling around, saw a railway junction and decided it was a target of opportunity, dropped its bombs and the crew headed back for ersatz coffee.
That's the one. But it was a Badaeker raid. The Luftwaffe had stopped serious strategic bombing in the run up to Operation Barbarossa.

I somehow doubt that Westbury could justify a Baedeker raid: there is nothing of historic interest there.
And there was in the great connubation of Castle Carry? :)
 

Gloster

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That's the one. But it was a Badaeker raid. The Luftwaffe had stopped serious strategic bombing in the run up to Operation Barbarossa.


And there was in the great connubation of Castle Carry? :)

Baedecker raids were attacks on locations specifically chosen for their cultural and historical significance, something that neither Castle Cary nor Westbury could ever claim. It seems to just have been one of the many raids by single bombers or small groups to cause disruption; the Germans probably has some fire-breathing code name for the type of raid. Baedecker raids tended to be full scale raids involving a fair number of aircraft; a similar single bomber raid on Templecombe station took place two days later.
 

Taunton

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And there was in the great conurbation of Castle Cary?
This bit of rural Somerset got a number of unlikely railway attacks. Just across the fields, at Templecombe on the Southern, the recently rebuilt, 1930s-style, station buildings were attacked and destroyed. They were rebuilt afterwards in the same style.

Castle Cary may be viewed as a great conurbation. or not, but whichever, it's nowhere near its station!

** - just beaten to it by @Gloster
 

Gloster

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This bit of rural Somerset got a number of unlikely railway attacks. Just across the fields, at Templecombe on the Southern, the recently rebuilt, 1930s-style, station buildings were attacked and destroyed. They were rebuilt afterwards in the same style.

According to the Templecombe Village’s website article ‘When War Came to Templecombe’, the signalbox lost all its glass and had some window-frames damaged, together with two doors blown in and a bit of roof damage. The damage was not sufficient to require the demolition of the box.The station buildings and nearby houses were damaged or destroyed and fourteen were killed or died later.

(Sorry, I can’t do a link, even when following the instructions I have been sent.)
 

zwk500

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According to the Templecombe Village’s website article ‘When War Came to Templecombe’, the signalbox lost all its glass and had some window-frames damaged, together with two doors blown in and a bit of roof damage. The damage was not sufficient to require the demolition of the box.The station buildings and nearby houses were damaged or destroyed and fourteen were killed or died later.

(Sorry, I can’t do a link, even when following the instructions I have been sent.)
https://www.templecombevillage.uk/history.html, the WW2 section is quite prominent. The specific article is: https://www.templecombevillage.uk/docs/history/templecombe-ww2.pdf
 

Calthrop

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Many French locomotives were destroyed, some by sabotage. German troops were travelling north for the Normandy landings, what became known as La Batile du Rail took place. Effectively, the entire French network was paralysed due to sabotage, including locomotives being blown up, no mean feat with an armed German guard on the footplate who would shoot first and ask questions afterwards
Talking of France in June 1944 , the SNCF was carpet bombed at key locations before the invasion , on top of the efforts of both cheminots and resistance to cause maximum disruption - the simple act of putting sand etc in axle bearings on flat cars for vehicle carrying was very effective I believe.
I think it became normal practice for trains to run with a wagon ahead of the locomotive with a machine gun set up on it. This also offered somewhat greater protection to the precious locomotive from de-railing sabotage.
Putting pennies in the oil feeders was another… wouldnt be found until it ran hot later down the line… water in sandboxes brings a hill climb to an end.

sabotaging straight rail is actually quite hard to produce a derailment, momentum of a train will keep it going and ride over it. There was a good video on line showing this, a train at considerable speed and with a metre gap on one rail just kept going…. But on a curve or a point it becomes quite easy… as has been seen in Ukraine of late.

I have seen it stated that as at the effective end of WWII German occupation of France; only one in ten of the SNCF's "on paper" locomotive fleet, was actually in operable condition. In the light of the above, that looks only too believable. (Hence all those North-American-built 141Rs, obtained and put into service as soon as possible !)
 

Iskra

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I have seen it stated that as at the effective end of WWII German occupation of France; only one in ten of the SNCF's "on paper" locomotive fleet, was actually in operable condition. In the light of the above, that looks only too believable. (Hence all those North-American-built 141Rs, obtained and put into service as soon as possible !)
The German occupation policy of just robbing everything from occupied countries to keep things looking normal in Germany is probably partly responsible for this too. Much French rolling stock ending up on the Eastern Front in support of Operation Barbarossa, where it was probably even more likely to be destroyed than in France with it being a continuous war-zone and seeing much greater partisan activity than France.
 

Dr_Paul

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Moving the subject slightly but keeping within the context of railways and the Second World War, I read recently the book The Bombing of Auschwitz: Should the Allies Have Attempted It?, edited by Michael Neufeld and Michael Berenbaum, where the question of bombing of the railway lines leading to the camp was mentioned quite a few times by the contributors, but hardly discussed in any detail. Such bombing was, quite understandably, asked of the British and US governments once the news emerged of the mass killings in the camp's gas chambers, but was it actually feasible or would it have made much difference even if it were feasible?

It seems to me that the chances, once Allied bombers were in range of Poland, that is from aerodromes in Italy from mid-1944, of successfully disrupting the lines in question were minimal, taking into consideration that a railway line is an extremely thin target, around 25 feet wide for double track, especially from the usual bombing height of 15,000 to 20,000 feet, and thus only likely to be hit by luck. Also, railway lines, especially those laid on fairly level ground, are easily repaired, and even those on embankments and viaducts can be repaired relatively quickly (the routes into London, many of which were damaged in the Blitz, were mainly repaired within a day or two). (The same argument around accuracy applies to the related question at the time of bombing the gas chambers themselves, half a dozen buildings each no bigger than a tennis court.) Knocking out a big bridge is also difficult; the important Bielefeld viaduct in the Ruhr was only put out of use in early 1945 when a ten-ton bomb was dropped on it. To render a railway system impassable, one needs a constant campaign of low-level attack, rendering repair a constant task. This requires ground-attack planes and air superiority: this increasingly applied to Western Europe from mid-1944, but not Southern and Eastern Europe mainly because of the limited range of such planes.

Another factor barely discussed in the book was that if a train of deportees, who were locked into goods wagons without sustenance, had been held up by successful bombing of the track, the Nazi authorities would not have hesitated to have had it left in a siding for a day or two, as they were indifferent to whether deportees died en route, as many were dead upon arrival even when the trains ran to schedule.

The discussion of this question has involved political and aeronautical historians, each with his own expertise and inevitable gaps in knowledge; I think that having someone on board with some knowledge of railways would have made the discussion more fruitful.
 

Iskra

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Moving the subject slightly but keeping within the context of railways and the Second World War, I read recently the book The Bombing of Auschwitz: Should the Allies Have Attempted It?, edited by Michael Neufeld and Michael Berenbaum, where the question of bombing of the railway lines leading to the camp was mentioned quite a few times by the contributors, but hardly discussed in any detail. Such bombing was, quite understandably, asked of the British and US governments once the news emerged of the mass killings in the camp's gas chambers, but was it actually feasible or would it have made much difference even if it were feasible?

It seems to me that the chances, once Allied bombers were in range of Poland, that is from aerodromes in Italy from mid-1944, of successfully disrupting the lines in question were minimal, taking into consideration that a railway line is an extremely thin target, around 25 feet wide for double track, especially from the usual bombing height of 15,000 to 20,000 feet, and thus only likely to be hit by luck. Also, railway lines, especially those laid on fairly level ground, are easily repaired, and even those on embankments and viaducts can be repaired relatively quickly (the routes into London, many of which were damaged in the Blitz, were mainly repaired within a day or two). (The same argument around accuracy applies to the related question at the time of bombing the gas chambers themselves, half a dozen buildings each no bigger than a tennis court.) Knocking out a big bridge is also difficult; the important Bielefeld viaduct in the Ruhr was only put out of use in early 1945 when a ten-ton bomb was dropped on it. To render a railway system impassable, one needs a constant campaign of low-level attack, rendering repair a constant task. This requires ground-attack planes and air superiority: this increasingly applied to Western Europe from mid-1944, but not Southern and Eastern Europe mainly because of the limited range of such planes.

Another factor barely discussed in the book was that if a train of deportees, who were locked into goods wagons without sustenance, had been held up by successful bombing of the track, the Nazi authorities would not have hesitated to have had it left in a siding for a day or two, as they were indifferent to whether deportees died en route, as many were dead upon arrival even when the trains ran to schedule.

The discussion of this question has involved political and aeronautical historians, each with his own expertise and inevitable gaps in knowledge; I think that having someone on board with some knowledge of railways would have made the discussion more fruitful.
Going off topic, but if the gas chambers were made unusable due to bombing, the Nazi’s would have just used a different method. The gas chambers weren’t the start of the murders, they were just a way to make it more efficient, less arduous and less psychologically distressing for those doing the killings. So either way, the killings would have still happened.

You do have to contemplate how the German war effort may have fared differently if all that rolling stock, capacity and effort was put to productive use instead, so it may well have ultimately contributed significantly to Germany’s military defeat.
 

Taunton

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Contrary to amateur belief, it is just not possible to be accurate with free-fall bombing from altitude, especially with the technology of the era, and let alone at night. To destroy a thin line target, like a railway line or a runway, the established technique is to have a stick of smaller bombs, say 10 or more, and cross the longitudinal target at an angle of about 20 degrees, in the expectation that one will achieve the result. Even then it's a chance. RAF technique multiplied this with squadrons of aircraft in close formation.

The No 1 target for the RAF in WW2 was Hamm marshalling yard, Germany's largest, in the Ruhr. If you think about it, trying to strike the rail network, choosing the one place where there are 60 alternative parallel lines is maybe not the best point to choose. Which Gerry Fiennes describes in "I Tried To Run A Railway". Yardmaster at Whitemoor at the time, RAF officers came down to speak with him about why constant attacks on Hamm were not having a great impact. There was one inlet track, he said go for that, they said they could not be that accurate.
 

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The German occupation policy of just robbing everything from occupied countries to keep things looking normal in Germany is probably partly responsible for this too. Much French rolling stock ending up on the Eastern Front in support of Operation Barbarossa, where it was probably even more likely to be destroyed than in France with it being a continuous war-zone and seeing much greater partisan activity than France.

Stripping occupied countries of engines and rolling stock clearly happened - but so much was lost on the Eastern front. One of the most impressive books I have ever read is the 3 volumes of Viktor Kleperor - a Jewish Professor in Dresden who incredibly survived the war , where he mentions the hope of the (German) population who said the "Supply" chain for everything would improve once the rolling stock was returned from the East. As we know - no chance - things got worse if anything.
 

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Sabotage was a more effective way of disrupting railway operations - the French Resistance (with SOE help) were quite adept at destroying major structures such as viaducts, bridges and tunnels particularly in SW France where they were strongest. Even there, however, temporary repairs were quite quickly put in place, some of which lasted well into the post-war period. The Dutch blew all the rail and road bridges at the border at the start of the German invasion, but they were quickly restored after the surrender. Downed metal structures could generally be reused whilst a lot of the road bridges were of a standard design.
 

Iskra

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Sabotage was a more effective way of disrupting railway operations - the French Resistance (with SOE help) were quite adept at destroying major structures such as viaducts, bridges and tunnels particularly in SW France where they were strongest. Even there, however, temporary repairs were quite quickly put in place, some of which lasted well into the post-war period. The Dutch blew all the rail and road bridges at the border at the start of the German invasion, but they were quickly restored after the surrender. Downed metal structures could generally be reused whilst a lot of the road bridges were of a standard design.
That’s where the Russians got it right, with their broader gauge- it took the Germans quite a bit of time to re-gauge the railways as they advanced and it then spread their rolling stock even thinner.
 
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