GWR First Class signage (or lack of) on the North Downs Line

[Deepgreen]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/autumn-refresh-for-gwr-class-165-166-turbos.222366/

This was the 'first class'(!) section of 165103 yesterday.

I don't think it is acceptable for GWR to have abandoned providing any first class attributes and labelling for its remaining unrefurbished units (which they have from at least the start of the 'refresh' programme and long before in some cases) - for those who have coughed up the first class fare and are unlucky enough to get this, it's very poor indeed.

Unthinkable in BR days and still should be.

 

[LUYMun]

This was the 'first class'(!) section of 165103 yesterday - I don't think it is acceptable for GWR to have abandoned providing any first class attributes and labelling for its remaining unrefurbished units (which they have from at least the start of the 'refresh' programme and long before in some cases) - for those who have coughed up the first class fare and are unlucky enough to get this, it's very poor indeed. Unthinkable in BR days and still should be.

Not as if there are that many passengers who are willingly paying first class on the North Downs line...

Every passing year makes less sense to keep first class on the Networker units, and it is apparent that guards are treating that area as declassified, even after asking them if it was the case on a journey.

 

[Deepgreen]

It's still happening after many years and GWR are very cavalier about it.

The fact that the staff don't know or care about first class on the route is a terrible reflection on GWR's mismanagement of the route and the rolling stock's labelling for very many years, and by a TOC which is supposedly run by a rail professional.

It begs the question of why money was spent on first class during the refresh rather than abolishing it.

There are some who do pay for first class to/from Gatwick, but to be presented with this is atrocious. As I have also said before, this would have seen heads roll in BR days, and rightly so.

 

[Clarence Yard]

They wouldn’t have rolled and you are sounding more than a bit obsessed with this issue.

I wonder if BR would have persisted with first class on this route as long as GWR have. If I was still at Thames and Chiltern (as was), I would have got it pulled it long ago. Not worth the bother.

The reason the money was spent is nobody at the DfT could make (what I consider to be) the appropriate decision in time.

 

[FenMan]

They wouldn’t have rolled and you are sounding more than a bit obsessed with this issue.

I wonder if BR would have persisted with first class on this route as long as GWR have. If I was still at Thames and Chiltern (as was), I would have got it pulled it long ago. Not worth the bother.

The reason the money was spent is nobody at the DfT could make (what I consider to be) the appropriate decision in time.

I'm a frequent user of the NDL and have always surmised that the 1st Class provision exists primarily for long distance passengers travelling to Gatwick Airport via Reading. These passengers often pay a hefty premium for their journeys, so my guess is GWR's accountants have calculated that, "in the round", retaining 1st Class on the NDL is financially worthwhile.

 

[Deepgreen]

They wouldn’t have rolled and you are sounding more than a bit obsessed with this issue.

I wonder if BR would have persisted with first class on this route as long as GWR have. If I was still at Thames and Chiltern (as was), I would have got it pulled it long ago. Not worth the bother.

The reason the money was spent is nobody at the DfT could make (what I consider to be) the appropriate decision in time.

I remember BR's attitude to first class labelling and signage very well and it was well-nigh impeccable compared to today (especially GWR for some reason).

Even if a single first class door on a unit had to be replaced and there was none available with a yellow stripe they would paint one on at the earliest opportunity and great care was taken to ensure de-classification and re-classification was done properly. Trains were simply not let out into service with stuff like this so badly wrong.

The idea that they might run around in this state for months on end just because they had yet to be 'refreshed' would certainly have seen people severely disciplined.

Even simply putting first class anti-antimacassars on would help and is a very simple and quick thing, but even this is too hard it seems.

It may well be that first class should have gone on the NDL long ago, but it hasn't and the fares are still advertised and charged. The whole saga is only a part of the poor attitude of GWR to its non-IEP stock.

If even the staff don't know or care about the policy and enforcement, etc., then we're at a very low point. I wouldn't mind if it was removed on the route altogether but this no-man's land is just dire management.

Obsessed? No, but very concerned about the slack practices that TOCs get away with and the insidious decline in quality and standards that is happening as a consequence.

 

[Clarence Yard]

So, apart from having frequent rants about it, what are you going to do?

And, by the way, BR wasn’t perfect at de-classification and reclassification either - I had to book a few for remedial work in my time on the C&W.

 

[liamf656]

I’m 100% confident it means that “110%” doesn’t exist.

I’m 110% confident that it was said as an expression, and they know that 110% doesn’t exist non-metaphorically

 

[Deepgreen]

So, apart from having frequent rants about it, what are you going to do?

And, by the way, BR wasn’t perfect at de-classification and reclassification either - I had to book a few for remedial work in my time on the C&W.

Writing to Hopwood again. I NEVER experienced wrongly-labelled (i.e. no labelling) BR first class accommodation on my very frequent travels around the country from the 1970s onwards.

Some temporary de-classification errors may have occurred but it was rare. GWR have been utterly cavalier about the concept, especially on the NDL, for years and their re-branding gave a strong clue as to their attitude by having a near-invisible pencil line instead of the clear yellow stripe - style above function, which has been a mantra of TOCs with their livery and information policies.

The principle is important here, because it represents a slackening of quality standards under privatisation which those of us who opposed it predicted from the start.

We know that DAFT are partly to blame here, but as a passenger I should not have to be interested in who has caused the shambles - just that, at point of use, it is there.

 

[Class15]

Writing to Hopwood again. I NEVER experienced wrongly-labelled (i.e. no labelling) BR first class accommodation on my very frequent travels around the country from the 1970s onwards. Some temporary de-classification errors may have occurred but it was rare. GWR have been utterly cavalier about the concept, especially on the NDL, for years and their re-branding gave a strong clue as to their attitude by havng a near-invisible pencil line instead of the clear yellow stripe - style above function, which has been a mantra of TOCs with their livery and information policies. The principle is important here, because it represents a slackening of quality standards under privatisation which those of us who opposed it predicted from the start. We know that DAFT are partly to blame here, but as a passenger I should not have to be interested in who has caused the shambles - just that, at point of use, it is there.

Will he reply I wonder?

 

[Deepgreen]

Will he reply I wonder?

One of his minions did last time - I wrote to him in January and received a reply in March!

My own little thread - all my rants in one handy (to avoid) place! Thanks to the mods. I have written to Mark Hopwood (about the NDL in general not just first class) and await a response.

 

[Bluejays]

That looks quite good for a Turbo . Not even any black and yellow tape in sight .
I'd say there's a good chance this particular example is pride of the fleet.

 

[etr221]

If it doesn't say it's first class ... it isn't.

 

[Dan G]

Each to their own etc. but I can't say I've ever understood paying for "first class" on a Turbo.

Still, thank goodness for the "ignore" function on this forum!

 

[jackot]

They wouldn’t have rolled and you are sounding more than a bit obsessed with this issue.

My own little thread - all my rants in one handy (to avoid) place! Thanks to the mods. I have written to Mark Hopwood (about the NDL in general not just first class) and await a response.

Say no more! Inspired by @TT-ONR-NRN on the recent Voyager thread, I have decided to compile just some of the complaints I can find about first class on the NDL just to add to the ambience of this thread.

You have mentioned this 25 times now at least (that's just the number I can find to quote recently searching on the forum). I get it should be fixed and 'BR wouldn't have put up with it' but I think GWR and the wider railway have bigger fish to fry so to speak right now, and a handful of turbos having inadequate first class markings isn't probably isn't top of their list.

I travelled on (unrefurbished) 165117 today on a Gatwick working and it was in an abysmal state, with no anti-macassars in first class and a general lack of any indication that it was first class at all. This is, it must be remembered, not just a facet of the run-up to the refurbishment programme, but has been the case for years on the NDL - FGW/GWR simply seem intent of failing to provide anything like acceptable signage - it's been a scandalous hotch-potch for so long now.

Tail wagging the dog. In the meantime I imagine they are in breach of contract by failing to provide appropriate first class accommodation (marked as such) when advertised in the timetable, and still charging passengers first class fares. The problem is that there is no pride in the job today - it's all scraping along with what they can get away with, legally/contractually and financially.

I have just written to GWR to complain about the line's abysmal situation, including GWR not even bothering to label its first class in any way when refurbishing its 165s (while happily charging first class fares on the NDL), and the staff not even knowing whether first class applies or not!

I travelled on a couple of 165s yesterday to and from Gatwick. Both unrefurbished and in a terrible state. First class had markings and anti-macassars but was full of 'standards' (students, etc.) without the guard bothering. Can't blame the crews as they must be fed up with the appalling failure of GWR to provide signage in the refurbished units, making it impossible to know what is going on with first class for them and the passengers. I have complained to GWR - there's no excuse for proper signage not being applied, but they have a lot of form in this regard. They should have taken the opportunity with the refurbs to apply bold yelllow external stripes as well, along the lines of the 769s in GWR livery, but haven't bothered with that either. A real mess. When I receive the usual pointless stock reply from GWR I'll be writing to Mark Hopwood personally. I used to think Southern's attitude to its first class provision was the worst I could expect to encounter, but this is far, far worse. By wilfully putting newly-refurbished units into service without any marked first class (i.e. not actually providing the facility in any meaningful sense) while advertising it, and charging the relevant fares, they are surely in breach of trading standards/contract.

The ridiculous saga of first class being advertised in one timetable then removed in the following one, and then re-instated again, has just added to the mess GWR have created.

There is a core that will going to and from Gatwick, but there needs to be; a) a reasonable first class experience, and b) consistency in provision (i.e. not removed in one timetable, back the next, ad infinitum. It really is not hard to provide proper labelling, especially when carrying out a refurbishment.

Sometimes, but it's mostly about the principle of the thing - the continuing general failure by GWR to label its stock properly and thus causing doubt/confusion in the minds of passengers and staff alike. It's just a lazy and lax state of affairs. They turned out the 769s as they should be, so why can't they bother with the refurbished Turbos? It smacks of a lack of direction and consistency in the TOC management. BR heads would have rolled, and rightly so.

I have wriiten to GWR about the very poor output from the 165 refurbishment programme and have received a holding reply while they consider my points further, including their failure to provide demarcated first class on the majority of North Downs Line when all on the NDL are advertised as having it (and fares are charged for it).

That would be fine, but at the moment it's a messy situation, and one which long pre-dates the current financial squeeze. As I've mentioned before, the Turbo refurbishment programme has failed to provide this very basic labelling and the incremental cost would have been absolutely tiny. As it is, newly-refurbished trains are running around with no first class accommodation indication, despite first class fares being charged - not what I would call a 'nice to have'. I suspect, too, that the refurbishment programme's specification also pre-dates the financial problems, and that the signing/labelling should ahve been specified there to the same standard as the 769s' livery.

After three months I have at last had a reply from GWR about the first class labelling! All very well, but it doesn't answer my specific question about why several units were let out into service for months in an incomplete form? BR would not have countenanced this - I can't recall a single instance of stock in BR service without proper labelling. This is from a TOC that has an MD with at least some sort of railway background, too!

This shambles would never have been allowed on BR, where it was sacrosanct that first class was properly labelled on any train put into service (some refurbished 165 units were put back into use after refurbishment with no labelling in place for weeks).

My point was that because there was no labelling the guard could not have enforced it anyway (and I feel sorry for the guards on this route who have been messed about by GWR's ongoing labelling failure for ages now), but for those with first class tickets it's a shambles and money spent for no benefit at all, just because they happened to be on an unrefurbished unit which GWR have abandoned (why can't they even put anti-macassars out to carry the first class signing?).

I don't think it is acceptable for GWR to have abandoned providing any first class attributes and labelling for its remaining unrefurbished units (which they have from at least the start of the 'refresh' programme and long before in some cases) - for those who have coughed up the first class fare and are unlucky enough to get this, it's very poor indeed.
Unthinkable in BR days and still should be.

It's still happening after many years and GWR are very cavalier about it.
The fact that the staff don't know or care about first class on the route is a terrible reflection on GWR's mismanagement of the route and the rolling stock's labelling for very many years, and by a TOC which is supposedly run by a rail professional.
It begs the question of why money was spent on first class during the refresh rather than abolishing it.
There are some who do pay for first class to/from Gatwick, but to be presented with this is atrocious. As I have also said before, this would have seen heads roll in BR days, and rightly so.

I remember BR's attitude to first class labelling and signage very well and it was well-nigh impeccable compared to today (especially GWR for some reason).

Even if a single first class door on a unit had to be replaced and there was none available with a yellow stripe they would paint one on at the earliest opportunity and great care was taken to ensure de-classification and re-classification was done properly. Trains were simply not let out into service with stuff like this so badly wrong.

The idea that they might run around in this state for months on end just because they had yet to be 'refreshed' would certainly have seen people severely disciplined.

Even simply putting first class anti-antimacassars on would help and is a very simple and quick thing, but even this is too hard it seems.

It may well be that first class should have gone on the NDL long ago, but it hasn't and the fares are still advertised and charged. The whole saga is only a part of the poor attitude of GWR to its non-IEP stock.

If even the staff don't know or care about the policy and enforcement, etc., then we're at a very low point. I wouldn't mind if it was removed on the route altogether but this no-man's land is just dire management.
Obsessed? No, but very concerned about the slack practices that TOCs get away with and the insidious decline in quality and standards that is happening as a consequence.

As some will know, my line (North Downs), run by GWR, has been laughable in its on/off policy regarding first class and the lack of provision/labelling when it is in force. The staff have no idea what is going on and cannot be expected to do their jobs properly as a result.

That's not the point, though. GWR have consistently failed to provide a proper first class provision in the route while advertising it, for years It's all very well saying people can claim, but they shouldn't have to except in rare cases.

Writing to Hopwood again. I NEVER experienced wrongly-labelled (i.e. no labelling) BR first class accommodation on my very frequent travels around the country from the 1970s onwards.

Some temporary de-classification errors may have occurred but it was rare. GWR have been utterly cavalier about the concept, especially on the NDL, for years and their re-branding gave a strong clue as to their attitude by having a near-invisible pencil line instead of the clear yellow stripe - style above function, which has been a mantra of TOCs with their livery and information policies.

Are GWR removing first class again from the NDL, then? The cycle of removal and reinstatement of this has been ludicrous - no wonder no-one knows what is going on.

It's become a joke, with, I suspect, even the train crews not knowing how things stand with each timetable change, compounded by the lack of consistency in the signing, internal and external. The whole fleet of units has been plagued by first class labelling failures for years. In BR days this would have been unimaginable.

Yes, hence my earlier post (no. 609) edit. My point is that the situation has changed so often in recent years that it is now a joke and apparently has left at least some crews confused. Not an indication of a railway under good control.

FGW/GWR have, for many years, completely failed to grasp the importance of good signage and labelling. BR labelled their first class religiously - it's not hard to do, but they just don't care. It's very odd. Their vanity livery's pencil stripe for first class was/is pathetic and is symptomatic of their attitude to information, i.e. that it's a distraction from their livery! Among the innumerable diabolical things privatisation brought about was the abandonment of signing conventions that had taken decades to establish in passengers' consciousness - it was a scandalous waste.

So, we are stuck with the 165s, which, despite a superficial redecoration inside, are inadequate and which GWR seem to be treating with disdain, as they have decided not to label the first class accommodation in any way before putting them back into service, while still happliy charging passengers first class fares to sit in unmarked and frankly still pretty grim so-called first class accommodation. Very poor.

I disagree - we had an excellent demarcation device in the yellow line, which took decades to become embedded in the passengers' psyche, only for it to be washed away in the name of 'innovation' by privatisation - a huge waste of an established regime. In addition, my point about the 165/166s is that they DON'T have any internal labelling post-refurbishment, so we have this situation: newly-refurbished trains that may or may not have a tiny pencil stripe over the windows of first class (or it may be at the wrong end!), while the interior has no labels, no anti-macassars and no other indication of first class. This is based on my experience of the NDL Turbos recently. In BR days I can genuinely not recall a single instance of this ever happening - it was considered (rightly) a fundamental part of turning out stock for service.

 

[boiledbeans2]

I've always wondered what the switches below the armrests in first class are for. They don't work nowadays. Did they used to control something?

I've drawn a red circle on the switch using the OP's photo:

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Say no more! Inspired by @TT-ONR-NRN on the recent Voyager thread, I have decided to compile just some of the complaints I can find about first class on the NDL just to add to the ambience of this thread.

You have mentioned this 25 times now at least (that's just the number I can find to quote recently searching on the forum). I get it should be fixed and 'BR wouldn't have put up with it' but I think GWR and the wider railway have bigger fish to fry so to speak right now, and a handful of turbos having inadequate first class markings isn't probably isn't top of their list.

Bravo, sir.

 

[rmt4ever]

I've always wondered what the switches below the armrests in first class are for. They don't work nowadays. Did they used to control something?

I've drawn a red circle on the switch using the OP's photo:

View attachment 137661

a little reading light above your head came on

 

[387star]

I've always wondered what the switches below the armrests in first class are for. They don't work nowadays. Did they used to control something?

I've drawn a red circle on the switch using the OP's photo:

View attachment 137661

A customer thought they were a call for aid a bit like on a plane!

 

[boiledbeans2]

a little reading light above your head came on

Thanks!

A customer thought they were a call for aid a bit like on a plane!

Some of the switches are missing. So it's just a hole on some armrests. Maybe an angry guard removed them!

 

[RailWonderer]

a little reading light above your head came on

When were these removed?

 

[penguin8967]

When were these removed?

Don’t think they were ever removed, just stopped working over time and weren’t ever maintained. I recall one working when I was on the Henley branch last year.

 

[boiledbeans2]

Don’t think they were ever removed, just stopped working over time and weren’t ever maintained. I recall one working when I was on the Henley branch last year.

I don't think they exist anymore. If you look at OP's photo, there doesn't seem to any reading lights above the seats.

 

[penguin8967]

I don't think they exist anymore. If you look at OP's photo, there doesn't seem to any reading lights above the seats.

The lights were all the way up in the ceiling, hard to tell from the photo if the bulbs are still in there or not

 

[387star]

165108 proudly displaying first class labels both on windows and interior door on a Portsmouth to Cardiff working

 

[boiledbeans2]

The lights were all the way up in the ceiling, hard to tell from the photo if the bulbs are still in there or not
View attachment 137709

Many thanks for pointing that out! I'll take a closer look the next time I'm on a Turbo.