Doughnutting

[nitefury]

Hi, I will not try to justify. Times are hard and I regularly travel from Peterborough to London to work. Have been buying sandwich tickets to save money and got caught by the Thameslink fraud officer. I was very cooperative, told him that I am saving up for a child on the way, and offered to pay ( he refused the fare difference). He wrote a report and told me that I will receive a letter from Thameslink shortly. I have made an excel sheet of my offences. 65 offences in seven months. I have taken on a lawyer and he will be opening a line of communication with Thameslink. My questions are

1. What are the chances of out fo court settlement for me?
2. I regularly need to do DBS as I change my jobs every year. Any conviction will be career ending for me.
3. Is there anything that I can do to help my case.

Is there anybody in a situation similar to mine who has had a settlement out of court for repeat offences.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum!

1. In cases that people have told us about, employing a lawyer seems to be fairly effective in getting cases dealt with out of court, Of course, a lawyer is not cheap, and from what we see here you will probably also have to pay the dodged train fares. Overall, you may very well not have saved money over paying the full fare every day.
2. If you don’t manage to keep out of court, you will receive a conviction. If the railway are aware of how often you have done this, then a charge under the Regulation of Railways Act (which requires them to show your intent to fare dodge) would, in my opinion, be successful and that would appear on a DBS.
3. It may not help, but it would certainly do no harm to demonstrate that your travel since being caught has been fully in line with the law. At the simplest, that means buying the right ticket every time. I don’t know if there are any good value tickets from Peterborough to London: if so, someone will be along shortly to let you know about them.

 

[AlterEgo]

Do Thameslink know about the historic offences? Have you been purchasing your tickets online?

 

[Haywain]

1.Very good. But also expensive. You will need to cover those missing fares plus an admin fee of around £100, with your solicitors fees on top.
2 & 3. See above post from @Fawkes Cat.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Welcome to the forum. Concur with @Fawkes Cat. Hiring a lawyer will undoubtedly cost, but, under the circumstances, is probably a wise course of action for you to have taken.

Hopefully, despite you having wilfully avoided paying the correct fare on multiple occasions, you / your lawyer may still be able to negotiate a so-called "out of court" settlement. This will be expensive though. Likely to be a three figure sum towards the train company's investigation and admin fees and (probably) a four figure sum towards the fares avoided.

(When you say an estimated 65 previous offences, do you mean 65 day return journeys from Peterborough to/from London? If you are asked by the train company to settle up at their Anytime Day Single rate, two singles for each and every return day journey will soon add up).

Is there anything you can do to help your case? Certainly you could start paying the correct fare in future and stop any repeat offending.

 

[nitefury]

Thanks for the early replies. 65 singles in last seven months.
The fraud officer asked my account email at train line which I gave him.
I have been buying tickets online only but have had to collect tickets from the station occasionally.
Looking at it now I have had to pay for the lawyers and will be paying for all the tickets that I have shorted.
How can I stay out of court?
Of course I ll be paying full amount from now on.

The season tickets are very expensive and as I don't travel daily they made no sense for me.

How can I prevent a conviction as it would destroy my career.

I know I have done a mistake and would pay any amount to not get a conviction.
Any suggestions

Hi

Welcome to the forum. Concur with @Fawkes Cat. Hiring a lawyer will undoubtedly cost, but, under the circumstances, is probably a wise course of action for you to have taken.

Hopefully, despite you having wilfully avoided paying the correct fare on multiple occasions, you / your lawyer may still be able to negotiate a so-called "out of court" settlement. This will be expensive though. Likely to be a three figure sum towards the train company's investigation and admin fees and (probably) a four figure sum towards the fares avoided.

(When you say an estimated 65 previous offences, do you mean 65 day return journeys from Peterborough to/from London? If you are asked by the train company to settle up at their Anytime Day Single rate, two singles for each and every return day journey will soon add up).

Is there anything you can do to help your case? Certainly you could start paying the correct fare in future and stop any repeat offending.

Hi, my pay is not great and have a family to take care of too. Was trying to save up for childcare, however that excuse me from the mistakes that I have committed. I have taken on an experienced lawyer who has handled similar cases before.

Thanks for the early replies. 65 singles in last seven months.
The fraud officer asked my account email at train line which I gave him.
I have been buying tickets online only but have had to collect tickets from the station occasionally.
Looking at it now I have had to pay for the lawyers and will be paying for all the tickets that I have shorted.
How can I stay out of court?
Of course I ll be paying full amount from now on.

The season tickets are very expensive and as I don't travel daily they made no sense for me.

How can I prevent a conviction as it would destroy my career.

I know I have done a mistake and would pay any amount to not get a conviction.
Any suggestions

Hi

Hi, my pay is not great and have a family to take care of too. Was trying to save up for childcare, however that excuse me from the mistakes that I have committed. I have taken on an experienced lawyer who has handled similar cases before.

Sorry I meant that doesn't excuse me

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The season tickets are very expensive and as I don't travel daily they made no sense for me.

It is, of course, a 150+ mile return journey, and presumably one undertaken at peak hours.

Are you eligible for a 16-25 or 26-30 railcard?

Alternatively, an 8 days in 28 days flexi season at £498.40 may represent a modest saving for you on the day return fare of £71.20 (route "Great Northern and Thameslink").

 

[nitefury]

It is, of course, a 150+ mile return journey, and presumably one undertaken at peak hours.

Are you eligible for a 16-25 or 26-30 railcard?

Alternatively, an 8 days in 28 days flexi season at £498.40 may represent a modest saving for you on the day return fare of £71.20 (route "Great Northern and Thameslink").

Thanks. I shall make a note.

Thanks. I shall make a note.

I am not eligible unfortunately

Any lawyers on this group who have dealt with similar situations before ? Any information would be very helpful on the outcome on similar cases. Similar cases on this forum don't have their final outcome.

Do Thameslink know about the historic offences? Have you been purchasing your tickets online?

I was suggested by my lawyer to come clean and tell them about all and any offences.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We have seen lots of cases like this recently, the good news is that GTR are generally one of the more pragmatic train companies when it comes to settling out of court. The bad news is that the number of times you have done this is a aggravating factor, which will make it harder to obtain an out of court settlement. As an aside, if you aren't prosecuted one do has to wonder how bad a levek of offending needs to be to get prosecuted.

In terms of what will happen GTR will send you a letter which will typically take a couple of months to arrive. It could be sooner but shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. My normal advice is to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Personally I would say engaging a solicitor at this stage is premature. I would wait for the letter from GTR and see what it says. If it only refers to the incident on the day you were caught then I would confine your reply to that incident and not mention any other offences - you are not required to incriminate yourself or assist their investigation. If their letter says they have researched your online ticketing account, or indicate that they will do so then it would be best to come clean.

If you get a response to your letter to GTR that is unfavourable then that is the point at which I would engage a solicitor. It is possible that GTR might want to speak to you personally either in a face to face interview or over the phone and our normal advice in this situation would be to seek the advice of a solicitor before attending although we have heard of positive outcomes where people have attended without taking legal advice.

It's difficult to say how much a settlement would cost if you are offered one. If it's just the single case it would be around £100 plus the outstanding fare, if it covers more cases then the admin fee is likely to be much higher. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

As a separate subject feel free to start a separate thread in the Fares Advice & Policy section of the forum about the cost of your journeys to work. We might be able to suggest some alternatives to reduce the cost. Things to post when if you do start a thread:

What is your exact journey (is there any onward travel in London from Kings Cross)
How often do you make the journey?
What time? Is there any flexibility on this?
Is driving part of the way feasible?
Are you prepared to take a slower route if it saves money?

 

[nitefury]

Welcome to the forum!

We have seen lots of cases like this recently, the good news is that GTR are generally one of the more pragmatic train companies when it comes to settling out of court. The bad news is that the number of times you have done this is a aggravating factor, which will make it harder to obtain an out of court settlement. As an aside, if you aren't prosecuted one do has to wonder how bad a levek of offending needs to be to get prosecuted.

In terms of what will happen GTR will send you a letter which will typically take a couple of months to arrive. It could be sooner but shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. My normal advice is to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Personally I would say engaging a solicitor at this stage is premature. I would wait for the letter from GTR and see what it says. If it only refers to the incident on the day you were caught then I would confine your reply to that incident and not mention any other offences - you are not required to incriminate yourself or assist their investigation. If their letter says they have researched your online ticketing account, or indicate that they will do so then it would be best to come clean.

If you get a response to your letter to GTR that is unfavourable then that is the point at which I would engage a solicitor. It is possible that GTR might want to speak to you personally either in a face to face interview or over the phone and our normal advice in this situation would be to seek the advice of a solicitor before attending although we have heard of positive outcomes where people have attended without taking legal advice.

It's difficult to say how much a settlement would cost if you are offered one. If it's just the single case it would be around £100 plus the outstanding fare, if it covers more cases then the admin fee is likely to be much higher. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

As a separate subject feel free to start a separate thread in the Fares Advice & Policy section of the forum about the cost of your journeys to work. We might be able to suggest some alternatives to reduce the cost. Things to post when if you do start a thread:

What is your exact journey (is there any onward travel in London from Kings Cross)
How often do you make the journey?
What time? Is there any flexibility on this?
Is driving part of the way feasible?
Are you prepared to take a slower route if it saves money?

Thank you very much for your response. The inspector asked me if this was my first offence or not, saying that Thameslink will ask for my train line history. I came clean and told him the duration, which he later noted down in the report.

What happens if I change my address as I am due to move shortly? Will this letter come on my email and my address?

 

[Hadders]

Thank you very much for your response. The inspector asked me if this was my first offence or not, saying that Thameslink will ask for my train line history. I came clean and told him the duration, which he later noted down in the report.

What happens if I change my address as I am due to move shortly? Will this letter come on my email and my address?

Thanks for confirming. I would still wait and see what the letter says.

As for your address then I would set up for yor post to be redirected by Royal Mail:

https://www.royalmail.com/personal/receiving-mail/redirection

 

[nitefury]

Thanks @Hadders . My lawyer believes that opening a line of communication with GTR may resolve the problem without me getting the intent to prosecute letter. Is that true? Has anyone had a similar experience?

 

[Haywain]

Thanks @Hadders . My lawyer believes that opening a line of communication with GTR may resolve the problem without me getting the intent to prosecute letter. Is that true? Has anyone had a similar experience?

Has the lawyer got experience of dealing with matters of this nature?

 

[Hadders]

Thanks @Hadders . My lawyer believes that opening a line of communication with GTR may resolve the problem without me getting the intent to prosecute letter. Is that true? Has anyone had a similar experience?

I am not a lawyer but experience of cases on this forum has been that contacting train companies ahead of receiving their initial letter isn't worthwhile.

Personally I would wait until you get the initial letter, see what it says and the decide your strategy from there.

 

[nitefury]

Has the lawyer got experience of dealing with matters of this nature?

Yeah, he deals with train fare evasion as his specialty.

I am not a lawyer but experience of cases on this forum has been that contacting train companies ahead of receiving their initial letter isn't worthwhile.

Personally I would wait until you get the initial letter, see what it says and the decide your strategy from there.

Thanks @Hadders , I shall discuss the same with my lawyer to decide the strategy

 

[fandroid]

Yeah, he deals with train fare evasion as his specialty.


Thanks @Hadders , I shall discuss the same with my lawyer to decide the strategy

We have had at least one case here where a specialist lawyer based in the south had personal contacts with railway prosecution staff and was able to pre-empt the arrival of the letter and get an administrative settlement resolved quickly. Your lawyer may have experience of the same sort of "deal".

 

[greyman42]

I regularly need to do DBS as I change my jobs every year. Any conviction will be career ending for me.

What line of work are you in?

 

[Momuss97]

How did you get caught?

 

[Hadders]

How did you get caught?

If you're in a similar situation then please start your own thread. No two cases are everr quite the same and we need to make sure discussion in each thread stays on topic.

 

[nitefury]

We have had at least one case here where a specialist lawyer based in the south had personal contacts with railway prosecution staff and was able to pre-empt the arrival of the letter and get an administrative settlement resolved quickly. Your lawyer may have experience of the same sort of "deal".

Yeah, I hope so. My lawyer did say that he knows the prosecutor of the well. Fingers crossed

Yeah, I hope so. My lawyer did say that he knows the prosecutor of the well. Fingers crossed

GTR*

What line of work are you in?

Unfortunately I will not be able to say that on this forum.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yeah, I hope so. My lawyer did say that he knows the prosecutor of the well. Fingers crossed


GTR*


Unfortunately I will not be able to say that on this forum.

If things progress successfully you may be able to post the name of the legal firm here for others in future to consider using. There are often requests for advice on getting legal help so I suspect future readers might find it helpful to know of a firm with suitable skills should they wish to obtain quotes for help for example.

 

[nitefury]

If things progress successfully you may be able to post the name of the legal firm here for others in future to consider using. There are often requests for advice on getting legal help so I suspect future readers might find it helpful to know of a firm with suitable skills should they wish to obtain quotes for help for example.

I will have to confirm with my legal counsel about the same, but yes if they are happy and the matter resolves out of court, I shall share the name of the legal firm.

 

[WesternLancer]

I will have to confirm with my legal counsel about the same, but yes if they are happy and the matter resolves out of court, I shall share the name of the legal firm.

Thanks. Yes, would be one for when the case has closed and ideally brought to a satisfactory conclusion from your point of view (or least worst conclusion anyway). Good luck with things.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Without wanting to get the OP’s hopes up, it’s pretty rare for anyone here to tell us their case has ended in a conviction, except when they were unaware of it and are asking about using a SD to “wind it back”.

While it’s doubtless the case that those convicted are unlikely to be keen to broadcast that news, it nonetheless seems to me that those who engage sensibly have a pretty good chance of keeping things out of court - and a better chance still when engaging a specialist solicitor.

Never get complacent, but it’s far from time to panic either!

 

[BeijingDave]

Please can someone define this slang term 'doughnutting' (which I have never heard) and also precisely define 'sandwich ticket' which could possibly mean one of a number of things?

 

[furlong]

Please can someone define this slang term 'doughnutting' (which I have never heard)

A journey where two tickets are used, one to cover the start of the journey and one to cover the end of the journey, leaving a ticketless hole in the middle.

Thanks @Hadders . My lawyer believes that opening a line of communication with GTR may resolve the problem without me getting the intent to prosecute letter. Is that true?

Yes - if it's done in the correct way, which of course a solicitor will understand how to do right. It's easy to get this wrong and create extra confusion or make the situation worse than it already is and there's always a chance (very unlikely in your situation) that they'll not take any action for whatever reason (e.g. lose the paperwork).

 

[island]

also precisely define 'sandwich ticket' which could possibly mean one of a number of things?

I don’t believe this is a generally used term, you would need to ask whomever it was that used it.

 

[30907]

Please can someone define this slang term 'doughnutting' (which I have never heard) and also precisely define 'sandwich ticket' which could possibly mean one of a number of things?

The forum search engine reveals only one use of the phrase, but it apparently refers to "missing the filling" so the same as doughnutting.

 

[WesternLancer]

The forum search engine reveals only one use of the phrase, but it apparently refers to "missing the filling" so the same as doughnutting.

Indeed - I took it to mean that - was used by a person seeking help so may not expect to use the term 'doughnutting' which is commonly used by regular forum members.

 

[nitefury]

Very happy to inform the members that the matter is now resolved out of court. I have had to pay a fine+ ticket costs but no letter of prosecution. Very happy and thankful for all your advice.