• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

Redbus74

Member
Joined
28 May 2023
Messages
18
Location
Hitchin
It takes an 8 car from memory. There is only one siding the rest was swamped by the car park.

Even if you go north the 6 track formation will take all the room that would be available on the east side.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I got these at 4pm today via email -

- Q+A part 1

- Q+A part 2

- Questions at the Bedford event

Notable comments - Aylesbury not dropped, OHLE on hold in favouring up and coming new technologies that are more suitable, Marston Vale line decreased speed to facilitate the level crossings (although I think it means it just stays the same). Northern approach at Bedford due to the town centre and flood planes in the south east of the town requiring viaducting for miles. EWR have identified 2 freight paths that can use EWR.
One of the questions is about the maps they released and the lack of detail on them, according to the lady this has been updated and on the east west website, i cannot see any difference except grey bits for houses or built up areas, there are still no road numbers or any other details added ?

EDIT, I see there are now maps at the bottom of the web page with more detail. Much better, road numbers would be good though.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Wyrleybart

Established Member
Joined
29 Mar 2020
Messages
2,025
Location
South Staffordshire
The problem isn't growth, its Thameslink. There is at least 1 train parked in the station 24 hours a day and sometimes up to 3. Thats all 3 current platforms gone. I'm sure you have seen the videos of freights waiting for a path at Bedford, which happens north and southbounds regularly.
That to me is a significant issue, which I understand is similar to Inverness. Caledonian sleepers allow one of Inverness's southerly premium platforms to be occupied all day by the Highlander sleeper stock, I am guessing it is so that traincrew are not required until a little before departure in the evening due to no shunting required out of a siding and into a platform. Because of this I understand Scotrail (national train company) are struggling to platform 2+5 HSTs on the southerly platforms.

Station platforms are for the express use of passengers boarding and alighting from the train service. If train companies are using platforms as handy carriage sidings to avoid it's own labour costs, IMHO that needs addressing.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,382
That to me is a significant issue, which I understand is similar to Inverness. Caledonian sleepers allow one of Inverness's southerly premium platforms to be occupied all day by the Highlander sleeper stock, I am guessing it is so that traincrew are not required until a little before departure in the evening due to no shunting required out of a siding and into a platform. Because of this I understand Scotrail (national train company) are struggling to platform 2+5 HSTs on the southerly platforms.

Station platforms are for the express use of passengers boarding and alighting from the train service. If train companies are using platforms as handy carriage sidings to avoid it's own labour costs, IMHO that needs addressing.

I think you’re missing the point at Bedford. The platforms aren’t used to stable trains. Thameslink trains arrive from the south, passengers alight, and then they form a service south. However the service is intensive - typically 4 trains an hour do this and at some times of day 6, and therefore at any one time one of the three platforms is occupied by a train in the process of turning back.

As it happens, we’re trains to disgorge passengers and then head to sidings to the north, they would still occupy the platform lines for some time whilst trains were checked, and then trundle off to the sidings at little more than walking pace (and then back again) so I doubt it would make much difference to slow line capacity.
 

mr_jrt

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2011
Messages
1,501
Location
Brighton
If you were somehow able to implement something akin to what I believe was intended for Crossrail at Paddington (i.e. automated runs to and from turnbacks without the need to disgorge any passengers who stayed on for some reason), would that help clear the platforms enough to unblock things? Or are the only options either more platform or through lines on the slows?
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,382
If you were somehow able to implement something akin to what I believe was intended for Crossrail at Paddington (i.e. automated runs to and from turnbacks without the need to disgorge any passengers who stayed on for some reason), would that help clear the platforms enough to unblock things? Or are the only options either more platform or through lines on the slows?

Crossrail has the automated turn backs. But still have to clear the trains of passengers. There are 3 or 4 people permanently stationed on the platform at Paddington to do this.
 

Trainbike46

Established Member
Joined
18 Sep 2021
Messages
3,426
Location
belfast
Crossrail has the automated turn backs. But still have to clear the trains of passengers. There are 3 or 4 people permanently stationed on the platform at Paddington to do this.
Would it be bad if a passenger was on the train through the turnback? I know occasionally passengers ride the kennington loop, for example because they're not paying attention and forget to get off the train at Kennington, but it doesn't appear to be an issue. Why is the elizabeth line or thameslink at Bedford different?
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,382
Would it be bad if a passenger was on the train through the turnback? I know occasionally passengers ride the kennington loop, for example because they're not paying attention and forget to get off the train at Kennington, but it doesn't appear to be an issue. Why is the elizabeth line or thameslink at Bedford different?

Principally because of the risk of an overcarried passenger panicking, pulling the pass comm* or much more seriously pulling the emergency exit and attempting to detrain on the move or in the sidings with predictable results. Low probability, but it does happen - a good friend of mine had a traumatic appearance in court defending his TOC (and himself) from accusations of negligence when someone detained on the move.


* although the risk of a train stopping across the junctions is now much reduced
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
105,142
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I suppose it'd add cost, but would it be feasible to have a means of safely detraining in the sidings, with a simplified platform with an exit-only arrangement like Bushey?
 

Trainbike46

Established Member
Joined
18 Sep 2021
Messages
3,426
Location
belfast
Principally because of the risk of an overcarried passenger panicking, pulling the pass comm* or much more seriously pulling the emergency exit and attempting to detrain on the move or in the sidings with predictable results. Low probability, but it does happen - a good friend of mine had a traumatic appearance in court defending his TOC (and himself) from accusations of negligence when someone detained on the move.


* although the risk of a train stopping across the junctions is now much reduced
That certainly is not a risk that I'd considered. I can see someone pulling the passenger alarm in such a situation.

People actually detrain on the move or into sidings???? That's certainly not an event you want to have happen!

LU reduces that risk by using the PIS to announce that the train will be back at the platform in a few minutes as it departs Kennington heading into the loop, reassuring passengers that way.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,382
LU reduces that risk by using the PIS to announce that the train will be back at the platform in a few minutes as it departs Kennington heading into the loop, reassuring passengers that way.

The risk is minimal on the Kennington loop simply because the only way off the train is via a cab door, and one of those will have a driver next to it.

People actually detrain on the move or into sidings????

Sadly, yes.
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
I suppose it'd add cost, but would it be feasible to have a means of safely detraining in the sidings, with a simplified platform with an exit-only arrangement like Bushey?

Rather better to have a robust system for checking the train is empty before the shunt takes place and ensuring all relevant staff are trained on the procedure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

That certainly is not a risk that I'd considered. I can see someone pulling the passenger alarm in such a situation.

People actually detrain on the move or into sidings???? That's certainly not an event you want to have happen!

It sometimes happens when a passenger has fallen asleep and wakes up to find themselves in an unfamiliar location, particularly if they are intoxicated and/or have missed their stop by some distance.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
105,142
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Rather better to have a robust system for checking the train is empty before the shunt takes place and ensuring all relevant staff are trained on the procedure.

Though to be fair occasionally it fails. I did have to use the egress to get out of a Thameslink that had terminated at London Bridge. The doors had not released properly and the driver had just walked off.

(You'd think these days that the passcom, which I tried first in case there was a reason for not releasing the doors, would on DOO trains be able to be redirected to Control if the driver didn't acknowledge it, just in case it's passengers who are on a DOO train which has stopped because the driver has gone unconscious...)
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
Though to be fair occasionally it fails. I did have to use the egress to get out of a Thameslink that had terminated at London Bridge. The doors had not released properly and the driver had just walked off.

Indeed, although instances of failure are not common enough to warrant building platforms in every siding.

I once arrived in London very late at night with half a dozen friends and we had to be at Euston at 0700 the next morning. Rather than booking a ridiculously expensive hotel, we opted to ride the Gatwick Express for a few hours to get some kip. Cue being woken up by a loud banging and spraying noise at around 0500, to find ourselves passing through the washer at Stewarts Lane! After arriving in the carriage shed we were detrained, walked round onto another train and sent back to Victoria on the empty stock!
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
7,008
Location
Torbay
Principally because of the risk of an overcarried passenger panicking, pulling the pass comm* or much more seriously pulling the emergency exit and attempting to detrain on the move or in the sidings with predictable results. Low probability, but it does happen - a good friend of mine had a traumatic appearance in court defending his TOC (and himself) from accusations of negligence when someone detained on the move.


* although the risk of a train stopping across the junctions is now much reduced
And this is a major performance issue even if all the safety risks have been addressed adequately. A train sat down across the turnback junctions for even 10 minutes could be horribly disruptive, with delays possibly cascading into other service groups working into Paddington as well as the EL itself. I believe the signalling arrangements into and out of the turnback have been specified suitable for passenger operations, i.e full train detection, FPL or equivalent on points etc. There are still other risks clearly though.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
26,846
Location
Nottingham
When I was involved in the early days of Crossrail the thinking was exactly as suggested, that the driver would locate any overcarried passengers when walking through the train during the automated reversal process. They would either return to Paddington with the train if it was coming back immediately, or be detrained at a suitable safe platform in the Westbourne Park area. From other posts above it appears that wasn't done, though I don't know why. Possibly an automated PA would have helped "This train is now out of service. Please remain on the train until it returns to the station.".
 

richieb1971

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2013
Messages
2,020
I used the Q+A email address and asked about Bedford. I got an automated response stating that it may take some time if experts from different fields are required to answer the questions.

I asked if Bedford station remodelling was taking into consideration the Thameslink reversals, Jowitt Sidings capacity from 4 lines to 2 lines for the 12 car trains and how they will handle that and where they expect parking capacity to be expanded once EWR gets to Bedford. I am guessing they will respond in a wishy washy way in typical "we don't know yet". EWR are going about this in a way that they tell you half the story, but from our standpoint since it affects other services they must have been informed and have "A plan". Each of those arches under Ford end road bridge can only handle 2 tracks if straight under the arches, but the Jowitt lines are coming at it from an angle of 50 odd degrees so at least one arch needs to be widened by x1.5 approx. The Marston vale line into Bedford comes in at the same angle with the single line going down the middle of the arch.

What do you think will be required to Ford end road bridge - Here is a pic
1687676384617.png
 

jfowkes

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2017
Messages
1,145
I'm sure GTR and EWR are talking about how to handle the sidings, that honestly sounds like a solvable issue with enough thought and planning. I wouldn't expect them to want to reveal details of those discussions until they actually have a workable plan.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
15,410
Location
Bristol
It's worth mentioning that until very recently there was no confirmation EWR would run through Bedford Midland station and so there was a limited amount Thameslink Programme could do to anticipate their eventual needs.

As for what Ford End Road Bridge needs, look at the concrete arch over the fast lines and copy that clearance above any new pairs of tracks. You could see 2 or even all 3 of the remaining brick arches combined to provide space for the extra EWR track, or the central portion of the bridge with the filled in Arch may be used, with a realignment of the sidings to give room.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
15,410
Location
Bristol
The 2 tracks for EWR are the far right ones.
There's only 1 track in from Bedford St Johns at the moment, the easternmost track is a goods/shunting loop. EWR will need to remodel the entrance to Bedford Midland to get two tracks in and maintain the appropriate protection from depot movements, most likely through the right-hand of the 3 arches over the current lines (where the line to the bay goes today).
 

43066

On Moderation
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
11,808
Location
London
(You'd think these days that the passcom, which I tried first in case there was a reason for not releasing the doors, would on DOO trains be able to be redirected to Control if the driver didn't acknowledge it, just in case it's passengers who are on a DOO train which has stopped because the driver has gone unconscious...)

If the driver becomes unresponsive the vigilance device will alert the signaller and (subject to stock) will allow them to make announcements over the PA system via the GSMR, for that reason.

Many (most?) passcom activations are spurious/accidental in any case.
 

Stephen42

Member
Joined
6 Aug 2020
Messages
433
Location
London
I used the Q+A email address and asked about Bedford. I got an automated response stating that it may take some time if experts from different fields are required to answer the questions.

I asked if Bedford station remodelling was taking into consideration the Thameslink reversals, Jowitt Sidings capacity from 4 lines to 2 lines for the 12 car trains and how they will handle that and where they expect parking capacity to be expanded once EWR gets to Bedford. I am guessing they will respond in a wishy washy way in typical "we don't know yet". EWR are going about this in a way that they tell you half the story, but from our standpoint since it affects other services they must have been informed and have "A plan". Each of those arches under Ford end road bridge can only handle 2 tracks if straight under the arches, but the Jowitt lines are coming at it from an angle of 50 odd degrees so at least one arch needs to be widened by x1.5 approx. The Marston vale line into Bedford comes in at the same angle with the single line going down the middle of the arch.

What do you think will be required to Ford end road bridge - Here is a pic
View attachment 137959
Jowett Sidings would be relocated entirely. The bridge to the south will both be EWR tracks and the alignment wouldn't support the desired speed. The new EWR tracks would have different alignment and as such expectation is they can fit through existing arches.

No location has been confirmed for the replacement Thameslink sidings, next to Caudwell was assumed in the most recent 4 track vs 6 track Bedford north timetable exploration. That expected that platform 1A would be extended to a full length bay to account for the loss of the siding north of Bedford and need for trains to wait for a path south to the new sidings.
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
I used the Q+A email address and asked about Bedford. I got an automated response stating that it may take some time if experts from different fields are required to answer the questions.

I asked if Bedford station remodelling was taking into consideration the Thameslink reversals, Jowitt Sidings capacity from 4 lines to 2 lines for the 12 car trains and how they will handle that and where they expect parking capacity to be expanded once EWR gets to Bedford. I am guessing they will respond in a wishy washy way in typical "we don't know yet". EWR are going about this in a way that they tell you half the story, but from our standpoint since it affects other services they must have been informed and have "A plan".

You seem to think that everything must be planned in detail, agreed and in place at this point in time. Let me tell you now that as a general rule, anything the DfT is involved with will be left until the last minute, poorly planned and even once something is agreed, the DfT will change their mind after work has started. Basically, the DfT have pretty much zero understanding of the rail industry yet still seem to get involved in the minutest details instead of leaving it to the people who actually know what they're doing.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
15,410
Location
Bristol
I presume it’s to keep the route completely self contained between Harston and Bicester.
It also probably means the speeds can be kept higher, as the geometry of the pointwork to merge and split straight away would potentially pull EWR down a fair bit.
 

tspaul26

Established Member
Joined
9 Jun 2016
Messages
1,833
It also probably means the speeds can be kept higher, as the geometry of the pointwork to merge and split straight away would potentially pull EWR down a fair bit.
And avoids the need to fiddle about with the existing Bromham Road bridge which has only recently been rebuilt.
 

tspaul26

Established Member
Joined
9 Jun 2016
Messages
1,833
It would still need a new span though, so whether the existing one stays or goes isn't really a big issue.
The point is that four tracks mean you must either demolish and replace the current (recently built) span OR build a new span and then take property (i.e. demolition) north of Bromham Road to tie into the existing slows.

A separate span would be less disrupt to the existing rail network and less costly overall.
 

richieb1971

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2013
Messages
2,020
You seem to think that everything must be planned in detail, agreed and in place at this point in time. Let me tell you now that as a general rule, anything the DfT is involved with will be left until the last minute, poorly planned and even once something is agreed, the DfT will change their mind after work has started. Basically, the DfT have pretty much zero understanding of the rail industry yet still seem to get involved in the minutest details instead of leaving it to the people who actually know what they're doing.
When building a new railway and it crosses and potentially makes another service suffer as a consequence and all of that is under the jurisdiction of the Dft you would think the dots are joined up.

The point is that four tracks mean you must either demolish and replace the current (recently built) span OR build a new span and then take property (i.e. demolition) north of Bromham Road to tie into the existing slows.

A separate span would be less disrupt to the existing rail network and less costly overall.
The distance of the east side of the bridge to the nearest double mini roundabout isn't that far. Add another span and the road becomes significantly steeper. We asked for extra width last time for cyclists and they ignored it. I can see that cyclist huffing and puffing up there with 30 cars behind it with all manner of cars locked in at that double roundabout. Just saying it isn't an ideal place for what is suggested.

Also it just occurred to me that if the route going south of Bedford was chosen and you had all these measures put in place to stop flooding Bedford, how did the Hitchin alignment work in the 1960's? If the route went south of Bedford it would cross that old alignment.

Something else that I've just noticed is that one of those MML OHLE pylon feeder stations has just been built next to Sainsbury's a bit further up the track.
1687795468901.png

As you can see its practically brand new looking and less than a few years old. If you put 2 new tracks in there I'm sure thats coming down as well, or at least will need to be moved somewhat. Would it squeeze in there?
 

Top