Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Snow1964]

The latest issue of Modern Railways (page 88) says 42 units have been accepted by SWR

Presumably all 10car sets, as only 2 x 5car have been out and about on test runs. That suggests over half (420 vehicles of 750) accepted.

 

[Fastlane256]

Is that one unit or more....

No information on that. But one unit is better than none. Assuming they aren’t a complete failure of a train.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The latest issue of Modern Railways (page 88) says 42 units have been accepted by SWR

Presumably all 10car sets, as only 2 x 5car have been out and about on test runs. That suggests over half (420 vehicles of 750) accepted.

Does accepted mean leasing charges are now due i wonder as that will add further burden to the cost of running SWR if they are just going sit around not replacing older stock.

 

[Robert Carroll]

I've been told by SWR today that they are to be in service by the end of 2023. What does everyone think the likelihood of that is?

I shall believe that when I see it.

 

[XCTurbostar]

I've been told by SWR today that they are to be in service by the end of 2023. What does everyone think the likelihood of that is?

No driver training has started yet so unless they hot-foot it, its unlikely.

 

[kw12]

No driver training has started yet so unless they hot-foot it, its unlikely.

The Modern Railways item mentioned above states that "The first depot drivers have now been trained on the new fleet, which the operator says is a significant milestone. ... After depot drivers, training will switch to main-line drivers. SWR says it has 769 drivers to train, a programme that will take eight days per driver across two concurrent weeks. ... no specific entry into service date has yet been given for them."

 

[AM9]

The Modern Railways item mentioned above states that "The first depot drivers have now been trained on the new fleet, which the operator says is a significant milestone. ... After depot drivers, training will switch to main-line drivers. SWR says it has 769 drivers to train, a programme that will take eight days per driver across two concurrent weeks. ... no specific entry into service date has yet been given for them."

I wasn't aware that SWR had any 769 drivers.

 

[Invincible]

The Modern Railways item mentioned above states that "The first depot drivers have now been trained on the new fleet, which the operator says is a significant milestone. ... After depot drivers, training will switch to main-line drivers. SWR says it has 769 drivers to train, a programme that will take eight days per driver across two concurrent weeks. ... no specific entry into service date has yet been given for them."

If the latest software updates are good when tested on the London - Poole tests from Eastleigh, guess the next step is to follow what happened with the 707 introduction and start testing/training on the Windsor line (but from the new Feltham depot)?

 

[Goldfish62]

No driver training has started yet so unless they hot-foot it, its unlikely.

If training starts soon why would it take to beyond the end of the year for any units to enter service? Normally it's around 2-3 months from start of training before new trains enter service.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If training starts soon why would it take to beyond the end of the year for any units to enter service? Normally it's around 2-3 months from start of training before new trains enter service.

Indeed. Surely if it takes longer than 6 months then drivers' competencies will have started lapsing. So if SWR have started training they must feel confident of introduction within 6 months.

EDIT CORRECTION - It seems likely I am wrong and it is 12 months for traction competency (6 for routes which is not relevant to my argument).

 

[vikingdriver]

Indeed. Surely if it takes longer than 6 months then drivers' competencies will have started lapsing. So if SWR have started training they must feel confident of introduction within 6 months.

I have a feeling traction competence is 12 months? Could be wrong!

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I have a feeling traction competence is 12 months? Could be wrong!

Pretty sure most places its 6 months, if not less.

 

[Dieseldriver]

I have a feeling traction competence is 12 months? Could be wrong!

Yep, I’ve always known it as 6 months for routes, 12 months for traction

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Rock Rail have notified the following new mortgage charges against units

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC

701013
701015
701018
701024
701026
701027
701033
701040
701045
701050
701051
701052
701509
701512

 

[MotCO]

Rock Rail have notified the following new mortgage charges against units

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC

701013
701015
701018
701024
701026
701027
701033
701040
701045
701050
701051
701052
701509
701512

Does this list assume that all thes units have been accepted by SWT? If so (and if it is complete), why the discrepancy with this quote below?

The latest issue of Modern Railways (page 88) says 42 units have been accepted by SWR

.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Does this list assume that all thes units have been accepted by SWT?

I presume so as Rock Rail has already learnt not to accept from Alstom what SWR wont.

If so (and if it is complete), why the discrepancy with this quote below?

Rock Rail aren't under obligation to deposit mortgage charges within a certain timeframe from acceptance its just an administrative matter so suspect as and when they have a quiet day they will add a few more.

You need someone with access to TOPS or GEMINI to see whats allowed to run on the network.
.

 

[cactustwirly]

If training starts soon why would it take to beyond the end of the year for any units to enter service? Normally it's around 2-3 months from start of training before new trains enter service.

Because a large amount of drivers and guards need to be trained

 

[Goldfish62]

Because a large amount of drivers and guards need to be trained

So unlike any other TOC you're saying they all need training before a single train enters service?

What has changed since the 707s, 444s and 450s entered service and it took 2-3 months from start of training to the first train entering service?

 

[Stephen42]

Does this list assume that all thes units have been accepted by SWT? If so (and if it is complete), why the discrepancy with this quote below?

Those are the new charges, there are older charges see quote below for previous status.

Thanks for update, these weren't there 2 days ago

So for completeness, following 28 units have Rock Rail charges

004, 006, 011, 012, 014, 016, 017, 019, 022, 023, 025, 028, 029, 030, 031, 032, 034, 035, 037, 038, 041, 042, 044, 043, 046, 047, 048, 049

Represents 280 of 750 vehicles (37.33%)

28 previous and 14 new matches the 42 in total stated by SWR.

It's likely contractual agreements require Rock Rail to agree to charges against their assets, possibly from when they own the vehicle. Their agreement with the manufacturer will specify when they own the vehicle, it makes sense for this to be when their intended end user would accept/pay for it with damages for late delivery compared to schedule. Together it's plausible all the events are linked aside from potential batching of paperwork in preparing/signing the charges as that doesn't impact the financial flows aside from if Rock Rail goes under.

 

[Snow1964]

For completeness the updated list of 701s with charges to Deutche Bank Luxembourg is now

004, 006, 011, 012, 013, 014, 015, 016, 017, 018, 019, 022, 023, 024, 025, 026, 027, 028, 029, 030, 031, 032, 033, 034, 035, 037, 038, 040, 041, 042, 043, 044, 045, 046, 047, 048, 049, 050, 051, 052, 509, 512,

(40 units 10car, 2 units 5car)
410 vehicles of 750 (which is 54.66%)

Missing ones are :
001-003, 005, 007-010, 020-021, 036, 039, 053-060,
501-508, 510-511, 513-530

 

[fgwrich]

It’s probably already been mentioned on here, but BBC South Today reporting that we won’t see any 701s in service until December at the earliest.

 

[reddragon]

It’s probably already been mentioned on here, but BBC South Today reporting that we won’t see any 701s in service until December at the earliest.

Which year?

 

[Invincible]

It’s probably already been mentioned on here, but BBC South Today reporting that we won’t see any 701s in service until December at the earliest.

Guess the 455s will last a bit longer?
Checked yesterday's iPlayer bulletins online and could not find the report, was it this morning so might be online later today?.

 

[fgwrich]

Guess the 455s will last a bit longer?
Checked yesterday's iPlayer bulletins online and could not find the report, was it this morning so might be online later today?.

I can imagine it’ll be in tonight’s headline news - the report appeared on the short BBC South News pieces during breakfast this morning, but transport correspondent Paul Clifton has tweeted a little more today. What’s hardly surprising is a comment underneath:

Press office told Chime Whistle Publishing a couple of days ago that mainline driver training has yet to commence, but it is hopeful for December launch on Windsor line. Insiders tell me that such a schedule is 'ambitious'.

https://twitter.com/paulcliftonbbc/status/1673976179286589440?s=46

 

[Invincible]

Thanks also found it on the BBC website

First of £1bn Arterio trains set to be four years late

South Western Railway's high-capacity trains are expected to enter service at the end of the year.

www.bbc.co.uk

The first of a £1bn fleet of trains will not enter service until the end of 2023 - four years behind schedule, the BBC understands.

The high-capacity Arterio trains were initially due to run from December 2019 on South Western Railway (SWR) routes to Reading and Windsor in Berkshire.

Of the 90 Class 701 trains ordered, only 54 have been delivered so far, with only 42 accepted as suitable.

The four-year delay has been blamed on the pandemic and software issues.

 

[Snow1964]

Because a large amount of drivers and guards need to be trained

The simulators, and parked 701 trains have been around for over 3 years, allowing some static training.

How much training (even if it is only 2 or 3 days of 8 day course) has been done, even if it requires a refresh (as time lapsed) to be done instead of full new training.

ORR (table 4.1) says SWR only running 79% of pre-covid service, unless they have offloaded 21% of their staff (or cut their hours) must have loads available for simultaneous training.

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/2207/passenger-rail-usage-jan-mar-2023.pdf

 

[Wyrleybart]

The simulators, and parked 701 trains have been around for over 3 years, allowing some static training.

How much training (even if it is only 2 or 3 days of 8 day course) has been done, even if it requires a refresh (as time lapsed) to be done instead of full new training.

ORR (table 4.1) says SWR only running 79% of pre-covid service, unless they have offloaded 21% of their staff (or cut their hours) must have loads available for simultaneous training.

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/2207/passenger-rail-usage-jan-mar-2023.pdf

Different TOCs have different regimes but generally they have trainers, assessors and driver managers. These are the people who train, assess and pass out drivers to be competent on traction. You will appreciate therefore that training, assessing and passing out is a slow process with only a few drivers at a time being done.

The problem with introducing the new trains to service is that each one of the drivers and guards will need to be competent before you introduce the new trains to service. IT is not really helpful, and Network Rail can get a bit pissy if a train ends up on the blocks at Waterloo with no one qualified to take it to the depot.

 

[Stew27005]

Noted at Clapham Junction Yard yesterday evening (R-L) were 701 014, 017, 037 and 006.

 

[Goldfish62]

The problem with introducing the new trains to service is that each one of the drivers and guards will need to be competent before you introduce the new trains to service.

Are you sure about that?

The idea of introducing them first on the Reading or Windsor line is that they're relatively self contained.

A friend of mine is a train manager on GWR and the IETs were introduced several months before he had his training and likewise another friend who is a driver on West Anglia with the Stansted Express 745s.

The 707s, 444s and 450s were introduced well before all train crews were trained.

If however the policy is that every guard and driver on SWR now has to be trained before any units enter service then I expect it will be another couple of years at least before we can travel on any.

 

[43066]

ORR (table 4.1) says SWR only running 79% of pre-covid service, unless they have offloaded 21% of their staff (or cut their hours) must have loads available for simultaneous training.

That doesn’t necessarily follow as they will likely have been under staffed before, as with most TOCs, plus there will have been leavers/retirements etc.

Are you sure about that?

The idea of introducing them first on the Reading or Windsor line is that they're relatively self contained.

A friend of mine is a train manager on GWR and the IETs were introduced several months before he had his training and likewise another friend who is a driver on West Anglia with the Stansted Express 745s.

The 707s, 444s and 450s were introduced well before all train crews were trained.

If however the policy is that every guard and driver on SWR now has to be trained before any units enter service then I expect it will be another couple of years at least before we can travel on any.

They won’t need to train all of them up, but they will need enough to operate the 701 services with some redundancy. So all the usual issues around getting trainers trained in the first place, then releasing people from the roster to be trained in groups before there’s a quorum of trained staff to run the new trains in service. All of this has to work around covering leave, sickness, other training etc.