Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[tomuk]

Reliance on TVMs for collection is a short term issue;

In my opinion, and probably many others and particularly if ticket office are to close removing ToD capability would be a mistake. Any issues there maybe for additional costs to 3rd party retailer or ongoing maintenance costs of the current 'Internet Explorer 6' systems to the wider industry are not an excuse to remove the facility. A non legacy ToD system should be instituted even if it means just printing out e-tickets. On a convenient credit card sized item of stationary would be ideal.

 

[yorkie]

In my opinion, and probably many others and particularly if ticket office are to close removing ToD capability would be a mistake.

I am not aware of any such proposals? But it will happen eventually, though not any time soon; perhaps you misunderstood my post, as my point was that it won't be necessary to select TOD once e-tickets are fully rolled out. This has been covered in previous threads.

In any case, I don't see any material difference if the proposals go ahead, given ticket offices generally seem to refuse to assist with TOD issues anyway, at least in the experience of myself and other people I know.

Any issues there maybe for additional costs to 3rd party retailer or ongoing maintenance costs of the current 'Internet Explorer 6' systems to the wider industry are not an excuse to remove the facility. A non legacy ToD system should be instituted even if it means just printing out e-tickets. On a convenient credit card sized item of stationary would be ideal.

I don't understand the first half of your post, but the proposal to allow e-tickets to be printed has been discussed in other threads (I don't think we've had a dedicated thread on the subject; feel free to create one if you like). It's a separate matter to what this thread is about.

 

[Starmill]

It is simply miraculous how often they seem to be frozen or similar, and I witness this is the case when the customer points it out to me - yet when I call the control to tell them they reckon it's reporting through the Remote Condition Monitoring as working OK and have to reboot them manually - even when it's on the white "Out of service" screen.

It's so, so common for a TVM to be found not in working order with faults like unresponsive touch screen, frozen in collection mode, no power, or in offline mode and yet its status to show as live on the remote condition report. At least one operator now advises the customer to take a picture of the machine if it can't be used which seems to me to be tacit admission their remote monitoring isn't reliable. Hardware issues such as lots of rainwater on the screen or ticket hopper are so rarely reported and yet so commonly nobody could be bothered to specify a hood for the machine to keep out of the rain. The one at Shalford station in Surrey actually used to flood because of a drain on the platform in front of it being completely blocked!

In my view this is a serious risk because the cleverest fare evaders can probably leverage it to their advantage, as well as obviously being unacceptable because it means honest customers are likely to be accused of trying to avoid paying or have a £100 penalty fare demanded of them in addition to the ticket price.

 

[tomuk]

I am not aware of any such proposals? But it will happen eventually, though not any time soon; perhaps you misunderstood my post, as my point was that it won't be necessary to select TOD once e-tickets are fully rolled out. This has been covered in previous threads.

It isn't a case of necessity it is a case of preference and access to the service for those who holding an e-ticket electronically is not convenient.

In any case, I don't see any material difference if the proposals go ahead, given ticket offices generally seem to refuse to assist with TOD issues anyway, at least in the experience of myself and other people I know.

Ticket office refusal to deal with ToD must be a regional or operator specific issue. Taking GWR as an example, who have kindly provided detail data, and specifically Paignton to illustrate a wider truth at GWR. Getting on for 5% of online booked tickets are collected at the ticket office compared to 23% at the TVM. So getting on for a third of online bookings are converted to physical media at the station.

I don't understand the first half of your post, but the proposal to allow e-tickets to be printed has been discussed in other threads (I don't think we've had a dedicated thread on the subject; feel free to create one if you like). It's a separate matter to what this thread is about.

Is this thread not about a proposal to remove ticket office and reduce access to ticket selling staff due to the change is ticket sales channels over recent time. One facet of that is access to ToD/ printing e-tickets.

 

[Gaelan]

In any case, I don't see any material difference if the proposals go ahead, given ticket offices generally seem to refuse to assist with TOD issues anyway, at least in the experience of myself and other people I know.

Leuchars (ScotRail) ticket office printed a TOD ticket for me, no questions asked, when the ticket machine was having touch screen issues once.

 

[ICWCShibuya]

I remember my trainer at Horse Landing (?) (Crewe) telling us about the de-staffing of Darwen. Saved 10,000 quid. he said, but; station vandalism/anti-social behaviour became worse, (as a result?) women and vulnerable people were less inclined to use the station. It lost revenue (staff used to check tickets from arriving trains then) so people without one traveling in the rear unit of a coupled non-gangwayed DMU paid on arrival). And it lost its Red Star Parcels business! The first point surely still stands?

 

[43066]

Well, if you later do find something, feel free to quote it!

As I indicated, it’s more what you haven’t said (therefore a little difficult to quote!); you’ve been surprisingly uncritical of proposals which on any reading clearly amount to closure of ticket offices + destaffing.

I do not know the Government's intentions (nor do I trust them not to change their minds on a whim!) but

We all know the government’s intentions are entirely centred around reducing cost and maximising revenue, as we have seen in other areas, such as the proposed changes to fares which I note you’ve been very critical of, and have vociferously opposed - in stark contrast to your attitude on this thread.

Surely it’s therefore logical to assume they’re taking the same approach to this aspect? It would be a little odd if they weren’t(!) and indeed the proposals appear to bear that out, as others have indicated.

I've already said what I'd like to see happen upthread.

You’ve said:

I don't want to see job losses; on the contrary I'd like to see an increase in staffing, but in more visible/proactive roles. I've seen TOCS/networks both in this country and abroad that do this well, but other networks/TOCs that do a very bad job and here is an opportunity to change that.

So do you think these proposals reflect that wish?

In particular my TOC is quite significantly reducing station headcount by around a hundred, and taking the opportunity to deskill other on station roles, such as making platform staff non safety critical st some locations (likely with a view to further cuts in future). Make no mistake, this isn’t simply about “bringing staff out from behind glass”, it’s ultimately about reducing headcount, so is surely directly contradictory to your expressed desire to see an increase in staffing?!

The proposals also largely fob off the accessibility side of things, through increased reliance on booked assistance etc. which we all know doesn’t work much of the time on its current form. That’s likely to make the railway substantially worse for the % of people who require it.

Change needs to happen; the debate is about how, and what. Not if!

Where have I said anything that contradicts that? Virtually nobody has suggested they want things to carry on exactly as they are. Several have uncritically backed the proposals, though.

Sadly I get the impression many on here simply view these proposals as a victory against the RMT, and aren’t considering (or simply don’t care!) that the railway is likely to end up significantly less accessible for many.

 

[scrapy]

I was discussing the matter in hand with a friend of the family, who mentioned that not so very long ago, Northern had spent a considerable amount of money on refurbishing the ticket office area and the associated waiting room at Heald Green railway station. Does anyone know how much those refurbishment works cost?

Don't know but Lea Green is currently getting a brand new ticket office built as part of a wider station improvement plan. That ticket office will probably never even open!! There's a number of other completely rebuilt/new ticket office buildings in the NW over the last 10 years or so that probably cost several times the refurb at Heald Green, (Leyland, Guide Bridge, Hag Fold, Lostock, Mauldeth Rd, Newton le Willows, Warrington West). I wonder if the new ticket office under construction at Headbolt Lane will see 10 years?

 

[Starmill]

Don't know but Lea Green is currently getting a brand new ticket office built as part of a wider station improvement plan. That ticket office will probably never even open!! There's a number of other completely rebuilt/new ticket office buildings in the NW over the last 10 years or so that probably cost several times the refurb at Heald Green, (Leyland, Guide Bridge, Hag Fold, Lostock, Mauldeth Rd, Newton le Willows, Warrington West). I wonder if the new ticket office under construction at Headbolt Lane will see 10 years?

Castleford and Burnley Manchester Road completely new too, and Eccles, Flixton and Chassen Road are replacements.

 

[nanstallon]

I can see this ending in chaos. They say that the staff will be on the platform, but I expect that before very long, most stations will be unstaffed. There will be long queues at TVMs, and a lot of people unable to get tickets by the time the train comes in. Bearing in mind the 'customer is always wrong' mentality on the railway, will they dare to get on the train and risk a PF or even prosecution?

 

[philosopher]

The proposals also largely fob off the accessibility side of things, through increased reliance on booked assistance etc. which we all know doesn’t work much of the time on its current form. That’s likely to make the railway substantially worse for the % of people who require it.



Where have I said anything that contradicts that? Virtually nobody has suggested they want things to carry on exactly as they are. Several have uncritically backed the proposals, though.

Sadly I get the impression many on here simply view these proposals as a victory against the RMT, and aren’t considering (or simply don’t care!) that the railway is likely to end up significantly less accessible for many.

To me the issues are two fold. First there is no consistency in what operators are doing. Some like Avanti are going the full hog and closing all ticket offices, others like Northern seem to have only limited changes. The other issue is the extent of the closures. I never imagined central London termini or major city centre stations would be at risk of losing their ticket offices, at least within the next few years.

Something like retaining all ticket offices at all category A stations and removing them from all band C and below stations would to me make more sense. Whether a band B station retains a ticket office could depend on the profile of passengers. A band B station such as Birmingham International could retain a ticket office as it likely to have a number international travellers that are unfamiliar UK ticketing. A band B station that is very heavily used by commuters such as Vauxhall could lose it’s ticket office.

 

[island]

One thing that annoys me in the ongoing discussions (more so on Twitter than here) is where people have decided on a clearly untenable position such as "not one booking office should close" but then start arguing from proxies, such as by reference to disadvantaging disabled people. Then when the irrationality is pointed out and refuted, they go onto "what about" arguments repeating incessantly, or more commonly start into ad hominem arguments about ableism. I wish those commenters would argue From their actual view so an effective debate could be had.

 

[74A]

BR starting closing stations back in the 1990s. Hungerford for example closed around 1993 has quite a large footfall of around 250k per annum. If it hadn't been for privatisation a lot more ticket offices would have closed by now.

 

[Punk43]

One thing that annoys me in the ongoing discussions (more so on Twitter than here) is where people have decided on a clearly untenable position such as "not one booking office should close" but then start arguing from proxies, such as by reference to disadvantaging disabled people. Then when the irrationality is pointed out and refuted, they go onto "what about" arguments repeating incessantly, or more commonly start into ad hominem arguments about ableism. I wish those commenters would argue From their actual view so an effective debate could be had.

Why do you assume they’re arguing by “proxy” and not genuinely interested in advocating for the rights of others? Being concerned for the less able is a valid position to take

 

[SteveM70]

Some like Avanti are going the full hog and closing all ticket offices, others like Northern seem to have only limited changes

Closing 131 of 149 currently manned ticket offices is hardly Northern only making limited changes

 

[eoff]

One thing that annoys me in the ongoing discussions (more so on Twitter than here) is where people have decided on a clearly untenable position such as "not one booking office should close" but then start arguing from proxies, such as by reference to disadvantaging disabled people. Then when the irrationality is pointed out and refuted, they go onto "what about" arguments repeating incessantly, or more commonly start into ad hominem arguments about ableism. I wish those commenters would argue From their actual view so an effective debate could be had.

Be aware that some disabled people will not directly engage in online debate from their point of view as it would reveal their disability.

 

[J-2739]

Closing 131 of 149 currently manned ticket offices is hardly Northern only making limited changes

I guess it's just a relative thing; Northern gets to keep a few, Avanti are getting theirs completely snatched.

 

[yorkie]

It isn't a case of necessity it is a case of preference and access to the service for those who holding an e-ticket electronically is not convenient.

TOD will go regardless. All tickets will be barcode tickets, even if they are printed.

Ticket office refusal to deal with ToD must be a regional or operator specific issue.

It's happened in many locations and on many operators, so no.

Taking GWR as an example, who have kindly provided detail data, and specifically Paignton to illustrate a wider truth at GWR. Getting on for 5% of online booked tickets are collected at the ticket office compared to 23% at the TVM. So getting on for a third of online bookings are converted to physical media at the station.

I'm surprised at those stats; they must be lagging behind other places.

Is this thread not about a proposal to remove ticket office and reduce access to ticket selling staff due to the change is ticket sales channels over recent time. One facet of that is access to ToD/ printing e-tickets.

The old TOD system with credit card sized stock (CCST) is going to go regardless; I am unsure exactly what will replace it, but everything is going to be barcode enabled. If you don't want an electronic version, it will be printed on the flimsy till roll style paper.

As I indicated, it’s more what you haven’t said ...

I'm not interested in an argument over what hasn't been said, quote frankly.

If anyone disagrees with anything anyone has said, simply quote it (using the quote button) and state why you disagree.

As I indicated, it’s more what you haven’t said ...

I'm not interested in an argument over what hasn't been said, quite frankly.

If anyone disagrees with anything anyone has said, simply quote it (using the quote button) and state why you disagree.

If I see someone saying something I disagree with, for example a suggestion that having people in offices is better than them walking the floor, I will say so. That doesn't mean people can infer all sorts of things I've not said and it doesn't mean I want to get into a theoretical debate, nor does it mean I can be expected to know what the Government may actually do l or any other complicated theoretical questions, whataboutery, or predictions about government policies. If anyone else wants to debate those things, feel free, but it's not for me.

Be aware that some disabled people will not directly engage in online debate from their point of view as it would reveal their disability.

Maybe so, but that doesn't in any way negate what @island had said.

 

[jayah]

Don't know but Lea Green is currently getting a brand new ticket office built as part of a wider station improvement plan. That ticket office will probably never even open!! There's a number of other completely rebuilt/new ticket office buildings in the NW over the last 10 years or so that probably cost several times the refurb at Heald Green, (Leyland, Guide Bridge, Hag Fold, Lostock, Mauldeth Rd, Newton le Willows, Warrington West). I wonder if the new ticket office under construction at Headbolt Lane will see 10 years?

It is evident from the consultation that a lot of this revolves around a pretty nebulous definition of a ticket office.

GWR have cited Reading Green Park as the future model. The video implies it has a help desk type counter in the concourse for information and tickets.

Many TOC consultations allude to similar models. Apart from 'getting out from behind glass' and other slogans, aside from obvious risks around cash handling, and fewer people it just looks like a poor man's ticket office, no doubt with paper roll tickets.

LNER seem to have embarked on a similar exercise renaming closes ticket offices as customer information centres or some such where you can not only buy tickets but get travel assistance and information during disruption, which of course has always happened in a ticket office anyway! Many of them don't even have perspex either.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Do the proposed booking office time changes at Manchester Airport mean a single shift can cover it.

In the past when I have been there, there always seem quite a number of overseas people whose flight has arrived who wanted to purchase rail tickets and asking advice on the intended journeys. The new morning start is 8am rather then 6.30am but the booking office closing time proposal sees a mid-afternoon closure instead of a 22.30 one. What flights are incoming in that period where incoming airline passengers could be troubled by the lack of an open booking office?

 

[johncrossley]

I can see this ending in chaos. They say that the staff will be on the platform, but I expect that before very long, most stations will be unstaffed. There will be long queues at TVMs, and a lot of people unable to get tickets by the time the train comes in. Bearing in mind the 'customer is always wrong' mentality on the railway, will they dare to get on the train and risk a PF or even prosecution?

It is not uncommon to see ticket offices temporarily closed at times during the day, even at busy stations in the wider south-east. At those times, everyone has to use the ticket machine. You are more likely to miss the train if you queue up at the ticket office! There is a probably a high paper ticket purchase rate in the wider south-east, because a lot of people are getting Day Travelcards and contactless isn't likely to be extended to those areas. Obviously if Day Travelcards cease to be available on TfL services then a lot of those passengers will switch to e-tickets.

 

[WestAnglian]

Just seen that. Absolutely ludicrous to close Ely given how well it is still used (and given they spent lots of money only last year to put in a new ticket office). The railway is trying to kill itself, it seems.

The Government is trying to kill the railway, you mean.

 

[johncrossley]

Do the proposed booking office time changes at Manchester Airport mean a single shift can cover it.

In the past when I have been there, there always seem quite a number of overseas people whose flight has arrived who wanted to purchase rail tickets and asking advice on the intended journeys. The new morning start is 8am rather then 6.30am but the booking office closing time proposal sees a mid-afternoon closure instead of a 22.30 one. What flights are incoming in that period where incoming airline passengers could be troubled by the lack of an open booking office?

Airports with night flights, like Manchester and Gatwick, are particularly difficult places to have a ticket office because many flights arrive in the late evening or overnight when ticket offices would normally be closed. Gatwick ticket office used to be open 24 hours a day but now no longer exists! Obviously Gatwick is a much busier airport than Manchester so if Gatwick can cope then I'm sure Manchester can.

 

[A0wen]

TVMs are indeed very unreliable. Last Wednesday we bought tickets online and as usual expected to collect them at a ticket machine at Luton station - but none of the 3 machines I tried would work, one gave an error message, two just returned to the home screen. So we collected them from the ticket office. Exactly the same happened a week earlier, and I think the TVMs at Luton have failed about 4 times this year so far. What does one do when there is no way of collecting a pre-paid ticket - I've seen no official advice?

I had this pre Covid at a station which wasn't staffed - I had a printout with the collection reference and showed it to the ticket collector on the train - no issue at all, was asked to print out the tickets at the destination.

 

[SteveM70]

Has anything been said about whether the number of TVMs will be increased at stations where ticket offices are to be closed?

 

[Halwynd]

The Government is trying to kill the railway, you mean.

The government are certainly the cause, but railway management seem to be supporting it without too much protest.

I'm told Mark Hopwood (GWR) is all in favour.

 

[A0wen]

I guess it's just a relative thing; Northern gets to keep a few, Avanti are getting theirs completely snatched.

Avanti only run 20 ticket offices though. Some of them are quite bizarre as the really ought to have been with their "regional" operator e.g. Rugby, Macclesfield, Coventry.

 

[Tw99]

Has anything been said about whether the number of TVMs will be increased at stations where ticket offices are to be closed?

I couldn't see anything in the GWR document about this, but in their position I'd be aiming not to spend any more money on TVMs, but just rely on people learning to use website/apps to buy tickets.

I'm someone who on my very rare railway journeys tends to buy paper tickets either from the ticket office or TVM, but could easily swap to using an app.

 

[SteveM70]

I couldn't see anything in the GWR document about this, but in their position I'd be aiming not to spend any more money on TVMs, but just rely on people learning to use website/apps to buy tickets.

I'm someone who on my very rare railway journeys tends to buy paper tickets either from the ticket office or TVM, but could easily swap to using an app.

I think the risk is that there are inevitably going to currently be a (probably smallish percentage but not negligible) number of "complicated" transactions currently taking place at ticket offices. If they're moved to TVMs, even with a floor walker present, they're likely to take at least as long, so for stations with only one or two TVMs they'll clog up the available TVMs and probably cause others to miss trains

 

[A0wen]

Airports with night flights, like Manchester and Gatwick, are particularly difficult places to have a ticket office because many flights arrive in the late evening or overnight when ticket offices would normally be closed. Gatwick ticket office used to be open 24 hours a day but now no longer exists! Obviously Gatwick is a much busier airport than Manchester so if Gatwick can cope then I'm sure Manchester can.

Bit in bold - is not correct. The number of night flights is *very limited* there are nearly always restrictions on the number of night flights an airport can take due to noise restrictions.

AirportWatch | Night flights at Gatwick

Gatwick: The number of flights allowed at Gatwick between 11.30 pm and 6.00 am is limited by a quota – at present 11,200 in the summer (seven months) and 3,250 in winter. That is a total of 14,450 flights per year. Stansted: By contrast, Stansted currently has permission to operate 12,000 night...

www.airportwatch.org.uk

It is why many long distance, or intercontinental flights are timed to arrive at UK airports *after* 6am.