East Kilbride/Barrhead lines: could they go over to DOO operation, in line with other electrified routes in the Glasgow area?

[Falcon1200]

Moderator note: Split from

East Kilbride/Barrhead electrification updates

Found this on planning portal. Mentions 8 car EMUS 4X hourly freq. Double tracked https://publicaccess.glasgow.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=map&keyVal=QBCECBEX0WY00

www.railforums.co.uk

I’d have thought class 380s would shave several minutes off the journey from reduced dwell times alone.

Especially if DOO was adopted, as used on identical sets on other routes out of Central, however AFAIK there are no plans for this.

 

[snookertam]

Especially if DOO was adopted, as used on identical sets on other routes out of Central, however AFAIK there are no plans for this.

No DOO on these lines. It would result in strike action.

 

[sannox]

No DOO on these lines. It would result in strike action.

Are they not going to operate the 380s like the other routes with Driver and Ticket Examiner?

 

[hexagon789]

Are they not going to operate the 380s like the other routes with Driver and Ticket Examiner?

There had been no extension to the Strathclyde Manning Agreement to my knowledge, so no - it'll be like the current operation with the 156s.

 

[380101]

Are they not going to operate the 380s like the other routes with Driver and Ticket Examiner?

A final decision hasn't been made yet, but the general chat is that it will Driver Open, Conductor close as they do on the 385s/380s outwith the Strathclyde area. The fact that Ayr conductors are due to be trained up on 380s, suggests it will be operated with a Conductor.

 

[Falcon1200]

No DOO on these lines. It would result in strike action.

Understandable that Scotrail and Transport Scotland wish to avoid (further) industrial unrest, but OTOH it leads to the quite ludicrous situation of trains operating from the same terminal (Central), using the same stock, to stations 3 miles apart (Barrhead and Neilston), but under different operating regimes.

 

[nlogax]

Understandable that Scotrail and Transport Scotland wish to avoid (further) industrial unrest, but OTOH it leads to the quite ludicrous situation of trains operating from the same terminal (Central), using the same stock, to stations 3 miles apart (Barrhead and Neilston), but under different operating regimes.

On a related point it would be good to understand benefits of the wires ending at Barrhead and not Kilmarnock other than 'the wires are now a third of the way to Kilmarnock'. What sort of electric service expansion is possible in a new timetable beyond those that are planned, bearing in mind there'll still be quite a few 156s in the mix?

 

[Southsider]

On a related point it would be good to understand benefits of the wires ending at Barrhead and not Kilmarnock other than 'the wires are now a third of the way to Kilmarnock'. What sort of electric service expansion is possible in a new timetable beyond those that are planned, bearing in mind there'll still be quite a few 156s in the mix?

I think this situation came about as a result of reversing priorities, putting East Kilbride behind Barrhead.

Understandable that Scotrail and Transport Scotland wish to avoid (further) industrial unrest, but OTOH it leads to the quite ludicrous situation of trains operating from the same terminal (Central), using the same stock, to stations 3 miles apart (Barrhead and Neilston), but under different operating regimes.

What does it mean for platform dwell times?

 

[sannox]

A final decision hasn't been made yet, but the general chat is that it will Driver Open, Conductor close as they do on the 385s/380s outwith the Strathclyde area. The fact that Ayr conductors are due to be trained up on 380s, suggests it will be operated with a Conductor.

Presumably the complexity of staffing the service with interworking EK and Killie routes.

Wonder if they'll move to DOO as EK and Kilmarnock progress but that's likely to cause headaches even if covered by agreements.

 

[92002]

A final decision hasn't been made yet, but the general chat is that it will Driver Open, Conductor close as they do on the 385s/380s outwith the Strathclyde area. The fact that Ayr conductors are due to be trained up on 380s, suggests it will be operated with a Conductor.

However the East Kilbride and Barrhead services are currently SPT trains.

 

[380101]

However the East Kilbride and Barrhead services are currently SPT trains.

I know. However, SPT as an organisation have nothing to do with rail services in the legacy Strathclyde area, apart from regulating some fares.

Ayr Conductors currently work Barrhead and East Kilbride services, so the plan to train them on 380s tends to suggest that they'll continue to work Barrhead and EK services once the electric services commence.

 

[Falcon1200]

What does it mean for platform dwell times?

Even if DOO is not adopted, having Driver Open/Conductor close will help; I don't envy the Conductors at present, having to both check and issue tickets, and open and close the doors, at the five intermediate stations on the Barrhead run!

 

[snookertam]

A final decision hasn't been made yet, but the general chat is that it will Driver Open, Conductor close as they do on the 385s/380s outwith the Strathclyde area. The fact that Ayr conductors are due to be trained up on 380s, suggests it will be operated with a Conductor.

Good opportunity to get the Ayrshire routes onto the same operation.

Understandable that Scotrail and Transport Scotland wish to avoid (further) industrial unrest, but OTOH it leads to the quite ludicrous situation of trains operating from the same terminal (Central), using the same stock, to stations 3 miles apart (Barrhead and Neilston), but under different operating regimes.

We already have Glasgow Central to Lanark services that are driver only, and Shotts line services which require conductors, using exactly the same traction and sharing at least two intermediate calling points. But as I mentioned above, it’d be a good opportunity for the RMT to highlight the discrepancy with a view to bringing back conductors on some routes.

 

[380101]

Good opportunity to get the Ayrshire routes onto the same operation.


We already have Glasgow Central to Lanark services that are driver only, and Shotts line services which require conductors, using exactly the same traction and sharing at least two intermediate calling points. But as I mentioned above, it’d be a good opportunity for the RMT to highlight the discrepancy with a view to bringing back conductors on some routes.

Having a guaranteed 2nd member of staff on train or it doesn't go, on the Ayrshire lines would be a start!

Hopefully the review of the SMA as part of the deal now out to ballot will improve things, but nothing will happen quickly!

 

[Falcon1200]

But as I mentioned above, it’d be a good opportunity for the RMT to highlight the discrepancy with a view to bringing back conductors on some routes.

Why, when DOO has operated in Scotland for well over 30 years now, and at what cost? More likely perhaps that railway management would highlight the discrepancy of identical trains running out of Central, some with and some without Guards!

 

[NotATrainspott]

The unions can demand anything they want but there's no chance that staffing requirements are going to increase. On a fundamental level our economy is shifting to one based around labour shortages. The argument can and should be that there aren't that many qualified staff available to operate on the railway so we may as well use them to drive the trains rather than just opening/closing the doors and checking tickets.

Normal people don't understand or really care why the same trains running on similar lines need such vastly different staffing and operating protocols, so the unions are unlikely to find much public sympathy for them. All the public really cares about is that there's a second member of staff on board each train and that they are, as far as possible, dedicated to helping passengers rather than dealing with the train itself. A safety critical conductor can not unjustifiably spend their time in the rear cab because there's no way to do anything useful for passengers in between station stops, so they aren't more visible or useful for passengers.

Given that a likely outcome of the Glasgow Metro will be conversion of heavy rail lines over to light rail, the status quo isn't going to hold for much longer anyway. There's a real opportunity for the number of qualified drivers on the Scottish rail network to increase.

 

[EMU303]

Can someone explain DOO in Scotland to me, I've never quite grasped what appears to be an inconsistency in how DOO is defined (particularly in the media)?
I've seen DOO referring to driver opening and closing the doors, or just opening the doors with a conductor closing them. And where there is no conductor there is a ticket issuer/collector (that person may have a different title I have not captured here). Is the conductor also issuing/checking tickets and so one and the same person? Or are there trains operating with a driver, conductor and ticket issuer?
Then there is the Strathclyde manning agreement which presumably is different to the wider Scotrail network agreements?
Very confusing to me at least!

 

[380101]

Can someone explain DOO in Scotland to me, I've never quite grasped what appears to be an inconsistency in how DOO is defined (particularly in the media)?
I've seen DOO referring to driver opening and closing the doors, or just opening the doors with a conductor closing them. And where there is no conductor there is a ticket issuer/collector (that person may have a different title I have not captured here). Is the conductor also issuing/checking tickets and so one and the same person? Or are there trains operating with a driver, conductor and ticket issuer?
Then there is the Strathclyde manning agreement which presumably is different to the wider Scotrail network agreements?
Very confusing to me at least!

DOO in Scotland is only within the former Strathclyde region (apart from Airdrie - Bathgate - Edinburgh electrics that are also DOO), and only on electric services.

DOO comprises of Driver open and close doors with complete control of platform train interface safety. All DOO services MUST have a 2nd member of staff rostered on them (Strathclyde Manning Agreement), however they can run without that 2nd member of staff being on the train. The 2nd member of staff is a Ticket Examiner, who carries out revenue duties and passenger assistance only - they are not Safety Critical trained.

Outwith the Strathclyde region, and on Diesel services within, a Conductor is involved with the doors and dispatch of trains. On all Scotrail Diesel stock, the Conductor opens and closes the doors, and has complete control of the Platform Train Interface safety. On electrics they have control of the Platform Train Interface safety, close the doors and dispatch the trains. They also carry out full revenue and passenger assistance inbetween station stops.

 

[EMU303]

DOO in Scotland is only within the former Strathclyde region (apart from Airdrie - Bathgate - Edinburgh electrics that are also DOO), and only on electric services.

DOO comprises of Driver open and close doors with complete control of platform train interface safety. All DOO services MUST have a 2nd member of staff rostered on them (Strathclyde Manning Agreement), however they can run without that 2nd member of staff being on the train. The 2nd member of staff is a Ticket Examiner, who carries out revenue duties and passenger assistance only - they are not Safety Critical trained.

Outwith the Strathclyde region, and on Diesel services within, a Conductor is involved with the doors and dispatch of trains. On all Scotrail Diesel stock, the Conductor opens and closes the doors, and has complete control of the Platform Train Interface safety. On electrics they have control of the Platform Train Interface safety, close the doors and dispatch the trains. They also carry out full revenue and passenger assistance inbetween station stops.

Thank you for the insight.

So Scotrail, like any other TOC, may wish to pursue more DOO because the train can operate even if a second member of staff is unavailable?

 

[Altnabreac]

Thank you for the insight.

So Scotrail, like any other TOC, may wish to pursue more DOO because the train can operate even if a second member of staff is unavailable?

Yes but because the cost saving is smaller (About £8k per annum less for Ticket Collectors compared to Conductors) compared to saving an entire salary in other TOCs the risk/reward benefit for strikes is different.

Essentially not worth a costly strike for fairly small savings.

As more electrification takes place the balance may shift and in ten years time there could be more of a showdown.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Thank you for the insight.

So Scotrail, like any other TOC, may wish to pursue more DOO because the train can operate even if a second member of staff is unavailable?

In extremis, yes.

The ticket examiner role is less skilled, and less specific. That means individual ticket examiners are easier to train up and then easier to allocate to services. This reduces costs beyond separately to their wages being lower, although this flexibility also reduces their collective bargaining power.

The model of DOO that has been used in England, primarily on London commuter services, is one where there is no second member of staff on board the train. Part of the reason for that is that passengers are largely using season tickets and they are largely getting off at a small number of high profile stations which can easily justify ticket barriers.

 

[Falcon1200]

So Scotrail, like any other TOC, may wish to pursue more DOO because the train can operate even if a second member of staff is unavailable?

There seem to be no plans to increase DOO, even on such routes as the forthcoming electric service to Barrhead (and later East Kilbride), where there is no logical reason preventing it. OTOH there are not, and never have been AFAIK, any proposals to abandon DOO and restore Guards/Conductors to all services. Which of course raises the question why DOO is acceptable on some services but not on other, very similar in all respects, routes.

 

[Glaswegian]

DOO in Scotland is only within the former Strathclyde region (apart from Airdrie - Bathgate - Edinburgh electrics that are also DOO), and only on electric services.

DOO comprises of Driver open and close doors with complete control of platform train interface safety. All DOO services MUST have a 2nd member of staff rostered on them (Strathclyde Manning Agreement), however they can run without that 2nd member of staff being on the train. The 2nd member of staff is a Ticket Examiner, who carries out revenue duties and passenger assistance only - they are not Safety Critical trained.

Outwith the Strathclyde region, and on Diesel services within, a Conductor is involved with the doors and dispatch of trains. On all Scotrail Diesel stock, the Conductor opens and closes the doors, and has complete control of the Platform Train Interface safety. On electrics they have control of the Platform Train Interface safety, close the doors and dispatch the trains. They also carry out full revenue and passenger assistance inbetween station stops.

Please, what does it mean to have a 2nd member of staff rostered on a train but not on the train?

 

[hexagon789]

Please, what does it mean to have a 2nd member of staff rostered on a train but not on the train?

The train has a driver and a conductor assigned to it in the staff rotas, but can legitimately run in passenger service with only the driver.

Non-DOO services meanwhile can only run in passenger service with driver and a guard.

 

[380101]

The train has a driver and a conductor assigned to it in the staff rotas, but can legitimately run in passenger service with only the driver.

Non-DOO services meanwhile can only run in passenger service with driver and a guard.

Almost correct. A train operating under the Strathclyde Manning Agreement only requires a Ticket Examiner to be rostered on the diagram, but they do not have to be on-board for the train to operate in passenger service.

A Conductor must be on all non DOO trains, or they don't run in passenger service.

Thank you for the insight.

So Scotrail, like any other TOC, may wish to pursue more DOO because the train can operate even if a second member of staff is unavailable?

It is unlikely that ScotRail will pursue additional DOO in the current political climate. Earlier in the year, the then Transport Minister, Jenny Gilruth published a report on the "Safety of women and girls traveling on public transport". This report has provided the unions with a big chance to improve the staffing levels on ALL ScotRail services to ensure the safety of all travelling public, not just women and girls.

With the increasing likelihood of ScotRail shutting ticket offices and/or reducing opening hours of staffed stations, it is now even more imperative that ALL services are fully staffed with a 2nd person at all times.

 

[Southsider]

Indeed - no complaints about noise on Facebook, has piling paused?

 

[yorkie]

Can someone explain DOO in Scotland to me, I've never quite grasped what appears to be an inconsistency in how DOO is defined (particularly in the media)?

There is no inconsistency in the definition; it simply means driver only operation and purely relates to the operation of the train.

I've seen DOO referring to driver opening and closing the doors, or just opening the doors with a conductor closing them.

DOO trains do not have 'conductors'; they may have a member of staff who is present to check/issue tickets and provide customer assistance but they do not get involved in the operation of the train.

Trains which are not DOO have Guards; that doesn't necessarily make them 'conductors', though in Scotland all Guards do check/issue tickets, though this is not the case on all TOCs.

In railway terms (ignoring trams!), the term 'conductor' is generally used to apply to a commercial Guard (i.e. a Guard who also checks and issues tickets); not all Guards are 'conductors' on some TOCs (e.g. Merseyrail, SWR inner suburban services, etc) while not staff who are rostered to check/issue tickets on trains are Guards (e.g. Lumo, Scotrail Strathclyde electrics, Southern services with OBS etc).

And where there is no conductor there is a ticket issuer/collector (that person may have a different title I have not captured here).

The Strathclyde electric trains are rostered for a travelling ticket inspector (TTI), though if they are unavailable the train won't get cancelled.

Is the conductor also issuing/checking tickets and so one and the same person?

On Scotrail DOO trains the TTI issues/checks tickets.

This is similar to the staff on services operated by Lumo, GTR Southern services with an OBS (On Board Supervisor), Southeastern services with an OBM (On Board Manager) etc; on Scotrail if the TTI is unavailable, the train doesn't have to be cancelled. On some TOCs the unavailability of the equivalent staff member would result in a cancellation (e.g. Southeastern High Speed; the OBM is required in case of an evacution being required in the HS1 tunnels).

Or are there trains operating with a driver, conductor and ticket issuer?

It is absolutely possible for a non-DOO train to operate with a Driver and Guard and also have a ticket inspector/revenue protection officer present. I don't know if Scotrail do this, but certainly other TOCs do.

 

[drb61]

I don't seem to recall there being any industrial unrest when DOO was introduced on the Whifflet and Paisley Canal routes following electrification - why should there be if it were similarly introduced on the Barrhead / East Kilbride routes?

 

[OB23Gone]

Indeed - no complaints about noise on Facebook, has piling paused?

First ever trip along the EK Branch yesterday to check on progress. Nothing between the run-of at Busby Junction and Thornliebank Station. About 8 or 10 between station and Robslee Drive Compound. Plenty of piles stored there but no piling RRVs on the compound although there is 1 in Nitshill. There are some between Giffnock Station and Church Road and that was all. No sign of any vegetation being or been cleared out, There maybe some in deep grass but doubt it. Probably after blockade on Barrhead section finished will the work start in earnest. To the normal traveller they might not notice anything was going on. Beyond Church Rd. nothing seems to be happening at all

 

[LowLevel]

The issue of exactly what staff do on which trains has always been very fluid, the only real fixed thing is that trains not operated DOO must have a guard, and trains operated DOO do not - though someone employed as a Conductor could be the guard on one train, and not on another.

Sometimes job titles include the word guard, and sometimes they don't - guard is a role carried out a by a person since the 1980s Traincrew Concept. BR dispensed with the job title entirely, replacing it with Trainman, Conductor and Senior Conductor. Some TOCs like GNER and South West Trains then brought it back again.

For example on Southern their Conductors even before the introduction of On Board Supervisors were rostered to work on DOO services assisting the driver, making announcements etc, as well as working as the guard on trains that required one.

I don't think however that ScotRail ever mix up their Conductors and Ticket Examiners - they work their own service groups.