A depressingly familiar journey through broken Britain

[Adlington]

From the Liverpool Echo:

To call the vehicle stood before us at Nottingham Station a train was to do a massive disservice to the very notion of trains. This was a tin can. A tiny, tin-pot, two-car excuse for a vehicle - but we had no choice.
That's because this poxy, sardine can of a rail service was not taking us along a few country roads but through FOUR major UK cities, from Nottingham to Sheffield then on to Manchester and Liverpool.
The situation was ridiculous, infuriating, dangerous and depressingly familiar for anyone who regularly tries to get trains across Northern England. The sight of a miniscule two-car train arriving into a major city full to bursting with passengers, with others trying to cram themselves on board, is not something any of us should have to put up with - and yet we do, all the time.
What made me particularly sad was the number of responses from people saying 'this is why I don't use trains.' What does it say about us as a nation in the midst of a terrifying climate crisis that we are forcing people to use their polluting motor vehicles because of the bedlam on board our rail services?

I can confirm that trains between Sheffield and Manchester are usually full to capacity, or more...

 

[yorksrob]

EMR struggling for units again by the looks of things. Time was they'd shove on a 156 or even a 153 for a bit of extra capacity where needed.

 

[Luke McDonnell]

Just letting you know I might veer off topic a bit in this post but it is mainly related to the article below by the Liverpool Echo's political correspondent regarding his experience travelling on EMR service to Liverpool:

A depressingly familiar journey through broken Britain

Political Editor Liam Thorp recounts a difficult trip that highlighted the failures of the UK's public transport network

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Just asking what do you think of this I am a very pragmatic and logical individual who is of course a rail enthusiast as well as transport as a whole but I could not resist getting a bit depressed after reading this article admittedly the Liverpool Echo has gone downhill for a while now especially with too many negative stories crime reporting etc. but this looks like more of a political rant as the Echo is not exactly friendly to the current Tory government - I know that there are problems with the EMR service normally runs as 4 car but here it looks like he was unfortunate to be caught up on a short formed service and when I have used it between Manchester-Liverpool normally 4 car and even if busy normally got a seat exception was 1 occasion last year I was on the way to Manchester and I was absolutely crammed in on a short formed service and a few weeks ago I saw a very busy short formed EMR pass through LSP but did not board as it was opposite direction so just wondering how common this scenario is? As I said this looks more like a diatribe and a political rant than an objective view at the overcrowding problem and how to improve it the reason why I felt depressed was the fact that I love my country yes I don't want everything to be perfect just to have a transport service that we can be proud of - it was the fact that he is equating rail overcrowding as a sign of 'Broken Britain' that does sound a bit OTT.

Yes as I said I love the place which I live but sometimes in the past I have been depressed about some aspects of our transport and political system in comparison with the rest of the developed world e.g. that fact that we have poor urban transport by international standards outside London (mainly as a result of bus deregulation and lack of metro/tram systems outside of London) and wondering why is that the case - I am pragmatic and see that things are likely to improve especially with bus franchising and the new devo deals but we even used to had a poster on here (Radamdi) who was so angry about the state of urban transport in the UK outside of London that he was seriously considering moving to the Netherlands at one point! But as many will well know overcrowding is not just a UK problem I have been on very overcrowded Paris Metro and RER services too. And I am sure short forming happens as well elsewhere. But I like to be proud of my country and moving elsewhere in the world is not on my radar but do you see room for improvement will bus franchising and devolution help? After all, I live close to LSP station so I am lucky to have good rail services close by. Another gripe that I used to have especially when I was younger was reading data saying how centralised to UKs political system used to be compared to other democratic countries wondering why this was the case and that the last Labour government where not doing much about it never mind the current Tory administration but thankfully we do have some devolution in England now under metro mayors which is a great change yes they may not be as powerful as say US city governments but I believe it is a good step in the right direction and do you feel that these will only increase there powers in the future? Our mayor Steve Rotherham is talking about expanding Merseyrail with BEMU's and franchising the buses not least with Andy Burnham doing similar for GM so do you think public transport provision in the UK (non London) will eventually become as good as similar sized cities elsewhere in Europe? And I also remember that Radamfi poster saying that even Dublin was better than most of the UK outside London is that still true?

Sorry I went a bit OT just as I got a bit ranty myself when I read that article I am on the autistic spectrum and can feel anxiety more including things beyond my control at times like this!

 

[zwk500]

You've been beaten to it, I'm afraid: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...y-through-broken-britain.252667/#post-6350077

 

[TheSmiths82]

I went from Manchester to Sheffield recently but I opted to get the slower Northern Class 195. Even travelling on Friday afternoon I had plenty of room and the journey was actually very enjoyable. It was however a lot slower than the EMR or TP services. I am not sure why the EMR service from Liverpool to Norwich is still running on two carriage 158s, it seems mad considering how many major cities it passes through and I always try my very best to avoid it. The services are also expensive. When I went to Nottingham a couple of years ago it was far cheaper for me to go via Stoke on Trent rather than get the direct EMR train. I had the misfortune to get the EMR from Liverpool to Manchester last year, while it is a short journey it was so full I wish I had just got the slow Northern service.

 

[Luke McDonnell]

Thanks for that didn't realise lol

 

[BeccaOnATrain]

From my experience on this route, this article seems like a fair assessment.

I went from Manchester to Sheffield recently but I opted to get the slower Northern Class 195. Even travelling on Friday afternoon I had plenty of room and the journey was actually very enjoyable. It was however a lot slower than the EMR or TP services. I am not sure why the EMR service from Liverpool to Norwich is still running on two carriage 158s, it seems mad considering how many major cities it passes through and I always try my very best to avoid it. The services are also expensive. When I went to Nottingham a couple of years ago it was far cheaper for me to go via Stoke on Trent rather than get the direct EMR train. I had the misfortune to get the EMR from Liverpool to Manchester last year, while it is a short journey it was so full I wish I had just got the slow Northern service.

The last 2 times I tried to catch EMR from Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield resulted in me not being able to get the train due to overcrowding. Both of the EMR services were 2 cars at the time - did I just get unlucky? I always use Northern over Hope Valley line instead. I've had a few non-railway enthusiast friends complain about the journey to Sheffield also - not knowing that going with Northern via the Hope Valley is often less crowded and generally the better option.

Whenever I plan trips out I generally try and avoid EMR west of Sheffield altogether. Just not worth the risk.. at best I will be sat on a grubby and dirty 158, at worst won't even be able to board the train.

 

[peterblue]

TPE and Northern are usually better on that route in my experience for seating space.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There has been a problem on this route going back further than 1997, during which I used it daily.

It really is appalling that it can't be sorted out to what is needed (a double 185 or 6 car 170 is the sort of capacity needed pretty much at all times) in twenty five years.

 

[Dr Hoo]

There has been a problem on this route going back further than 1997, during which I used it daily.

It really is appalling that it can't be sorted out to what is needed (a double 185 or 6 car 170 is the sort of capacity needed pretty much at all times) in twenty five years.

Well, quite! There is no ‘news’ in the newspaper article whatsoever. A similar trip in 1990 would have seen a BR Regional Railways 2-car on this axis. Somewhat newer but no bigger.

 

[BJames]

A lot of the comments on that article seem to be referring to the journalist's political inclinations and saying to get over it etc - 2 cars is clearly not enough but it's not news really. I eagerly await Labour's immediate solution to this line's overcrowding...

 

[cygnus44]

I wait patiently for any government to resolve the problems with the trains at the moment, seams to be an impossible task to me. Overcrowding on short forms seams to be everywhere at the moment see the GWR short forms thread for one, yet they are about to withdraw the remaining Castle Sets soon, the only trains left are the IETs which themselves are fairly useless, cracks in them, to short, not enough of them. Why on Earth are they withdrawing the Castle sets with no expected replacement in sight. Moving on to the Anglia region where are the old near new 379 units now, residing in sidings some where keeping company with all the brand new rubbish that does not work. This is madness if you buy cheep rubbish you get what you pay for ”rubbish” The strikes need resolving ASP they are going nowhere surely we won’t have to wait until December next year for a change of government to get a settlement. I am afraid at the moment the Rail Industry is shooting itself in the foot.

 

[Topological]

Being the Liverpool Echo, they no doubt slept through Manchester and the ample evidence of regeneration. Likewise, I suspect they conveniently ignored the environmental benefits that the changing land use between Nottingham and Sheffield is connected with. Probably no mention of all that is happening with the old UMIST campus next to the Piccadilly-Oxford Road section in Manchester. That is not to say the growth of investment in Manchester, the change away from coal, or academic-industry collaboration are necessarily 100% good, but that train does showcase quite a lot of what might otherwise be termed "progressing Britain".

When Liverpool - Nottingham went up to 4 carriages it was a major boost. The turbostars on the line had 3 carriages, but mostly it had been a 2-car line. Admittedly 2-car is a short form now, but it is certainly not symptomatic of any breaking.

We would all like to see new infrastructure build and more efficient uses of existing capacity, but presently it is hard to see where a money tree will come from to kickstart the virtuous cycle of development of the railways.

 

[yorksrob]

The route used to reliably turn out four carriage 158's for many years with occasional substitutions. Infact for a long time, EMT/R was the most reliable way of getting a seat between Manchester and Sheffield. Started going fown the pan some time before the Pandemic as I recall.

As with the rest of the railway, TOC being strong-armed into getting rid of too much rolling stock without adequate replacements.

 

[Spartacus]

Reliability seems to be dropping quite badly lately, with either the NW/SE service directly affected or it's additional unit being taken to prevent another service being cancelled entirely. Hopefully the cascaded stock they get will be more reliable than the last lot.

 

[urbophile]

Being the Liverpool Echo, they no doubt slept through Manchester and the ample evidence of regeneration. Likewise, I suspect they conveniently ignored the environmental benefits that the changing land use between Nottingham and Sheffield is connected with. Probably no mention of all that is happening with the old UMIST campus next to the Piccadilly-Oxford Road section in Manchester. That is not to say the growth of investment in Manchester, the change away from coal, or academic-industry collaboration are necessarily 100% good, but that train does showcase quite a lot of what might otherwise be termed "progressing Britain".

Strange comment. Thorp's point is that the train service between four major cities, including Manchester whose regeneration is implied, not dismissed, is far less than adequate and not what anyone should have to put up with. The infrastructure to serve London and the south east is much superior, and understandably so given the much larger population and economy. But the sort of tinpot multiple unit which might be perfectly suited to a remote rural line in midWales, is blatantly obviously not the intercity train service which this route deserves and needs.

The Liverpool Echo's standards have fallen way below even the standards of National Rail, nevertheless Liam Thorp is one of their few remaining journalists of quality. He is articulate and writes well (even if he can't spell minuscule!). Comments on here about political bias miss the point: it's the job of the press to hold politicians to account. Who is ultimately responsible for the lack of investment in rolling stock? Or the refusal to recruit enough staff to run the advertised train service? Clearly it is the government, which for the past thirteen years has been a Conservative one. The fact that the alternative of a Labour government is unlikely to do much better is a confirmation of a broken system, which prioritises short term electoral advantage over radical policies. To turn this into a party political issue is to play their game. Only radical change will solve matters.

 

[LowLevel]

Outwith disruption it is usually pretty reliably 4 car 158s or 170s now, and I believe some 6 car diagrams should be starting shortly. All trains today are showing fully formed.

The summer is invariably a challenge with Skegness eating up units, some 4 and 5 car lashups have had to be kicked onto that route to resolve overcrowding with the 3 cars.

Apparently a proposal is going in to the DfT to use 5 or 6 car 170s on the route going forward as a 2 car 158 has enough seats to ease some of the full and standing 2 car 170 services as a double benefit.

Hopefully it should settle down before long.

 

[NorthWestRover]

I caught an EMR service from Stockport to Oxford Road yesterday which was pleasantly 2 x 2-car 170s and surprisingly quiet.

 

[johntea]

I went from Manchester to Sheffield recently but I opted to get the slower Northern Class 195. Even travelling on Friday afternoon I had plenty of room and the journey was actually very enjoyable. It was however a lot slower than the EMR or TP services. I am not sure why the EMR service from Liverpool to Norwich is still running on two carriage 158s, it seems mad considering how many major cities it passes through and I always try my very best to avoid it. The services are also expensive. When I went to Nottingham a couple of years ago it was far cheaper for me to go via Stoke on Trent rather than get the direct EMR train. I had the misfortune to get the EMR from Liverpool to Manchester last year, while it is a short journey it was so full I wish I had just got the slow Northern service.

The same case with Leeds - Manchester these days, you're better off catching the Northern stopper (roughly 1hr 20min) compared to playing the 'will the Transpenine service be cancelled or heavily delayed and packed to the brim anyway' lottery

 

[RailWonderer]

The last 2 times I tried to catch EMR from Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield resulted in me not being able to get the train due to overcrowding. Both of the EMR services were 2 cars at the time - did I just get unlucky? I always use Northern over Hope Valley line instead. I've had a few non-railway enthusiast friends complain about the journey to Sheffield also - not knowing that going with Northern via the Hope Valley is often less crowded and generally the better option.

Not less crowded when TPE is cancelled or when the weather is good for the obvious reason.

Outwith disruption it is usually pretty reliably 4 car 158s or 170s now, and I believe some 6 car diagrams should be starting shortly. All trains today are showing fully formed.

The summer is invariably a challenge with Skegness eating up units, some 4 and 5 car lashups have had to be kicked onto that route to resolve overcrowding with the 3 cars.

Apparently a proposal is going in to the DfT to use 5 or 6 car 170s on the route going forward as a 2 car 158 has enough seats to ease some of the full and standing 2 car 170 services as a double benefit.

Hopefully it should settle down before long.

I've done Chinley/Sheffield to Nottingham twice this year, once last month and a 4 car 158 in the evening heading east was fine, (albeit cozy9 and there were still seats. 6 cars only needed for the busiest services.

 

[dk1]

The EMR service on this route has suffered severe overcrowding & reliability issues since its inception as a regular DMU operated service in 1988 under the Regional Railways banner & through the Central Trains & EMT eras.

 

[Topological]

Strange comment. Thorp's point is that the train service between four major cities, including Manchester whose regeneration is implied, not dismissed, is far less than adequate and not what anyone should have to put up with. The infrastructure to serve London and the south east is much superior, and understandably so given the much larger population and economy. But the sort of tinpot multiple unit which might be perfectly suited to a remote rural line in midWales, is blatantly obviously not the intercity train service which this route deserves and needs.

The Liverpool Echo's standards have fallen way below even the standards of National Rail, nevertheless Liam Thorp is one of their few remaining journalists of quality. He is articulate and writes well (even if he can't spell minuscule!). Comments on here about political bias miss the point: it's the job of the press to hold politicians to account. Who is ultimately responsible for the lack of investment in rolling stock? Or the refusal to recruit enough staff to run the advertised train service? Clearly it is the government, which for the past thirteen years has been a Conservative one. The fact that the alternative of a Labour government is unlikely to do much better is a confirmation of a broken system, which prioritises short term electoral advantage over radical policies. To turn this into a party political issue is to play their game. Only radical change will solve matters.

Strange response.

Using emotive language such as Broken Britain is clearly misplaced when the train passes through so much which has been good (and non-London centric) about the past decades. Note that we have had governments of both persuasions in that time and Manchester is a Labour run city.

If the idea is to say that better trains are needed just say it, the Broken Britain is clearly in the headline for a reason.

 

[DaventryRabbit]

From my experience on this route, this article seems like a fair assessment.



The last 2 times I tried to catch EMR from Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield resulted in me not being able to get the train due to overcrowding. Both of the EMR services were 2 cars at the time - did I just get unlucky? I always use Northern over Hope Valley line instead. I've had a few non-railway enthusiast friends complain about the journey to Sheffield also - not knowing that going with Northern via the Hope Valley is often less crowded and generally the better option.

Whenever I plan trips out I generally try and avoid EMR west of Sheffield altogether. Just not worth the risk.. at best I will be sat on a grubby and dirty 158, at worst won't even be able to board the train.

In my experience even the Northern Service is overcrowded. Mainly down to cheap 'Northern Only' Fares which most people will find online and instinctively buy without thinking simply because it's the cheapest fare on offer, especially in these constrained times.
This means the train will leave close or very close to full capacity with end to end passengers, leaving very little room for joiners at the Hope Valley Stations.
In the Summer the situation is worse as day trippers/walkers, mainly to Edale, fill the Trains. Obviously EMR Short forming and general TPE unreliability dosen't help things no matter what time of day or year...

 

[urbophile]

Strange response.

Using emotive language such as Broken Britain is clearly misplaced when the train passes through so much which has been good (and non-London centric) about the past decades. Note that we have had governments of both persuasions in that time and Manchester is a Labour run city.

If the idea is to say that better trains are needed just say it, the Broken Britain is clearly in the headline for a reason.

That was the headline, not in the body of the piece. So blame the Echo subeditors who will follow the tabloid line of sensationalism over accuracy. I don't think you can claim the the article itself was inaccurate.

 

[Topological]

That was the headline, not in the body of the piece. So blame the Echo subeditors who will follow the tabloid line of sensationalism over accuracy. I don't think you can claim the the article itself was inaccurate.

I have not read the article, so will have to take your interpretation that the subeditors were the ones that took the chance to add "broken Britain".

Good job the article is not about a train which connects Manchester to one of the UKs capital cities (nevermind the fact Liverpool is not connected to Cardiff at all) and they got on a TfW 150 (or even better a Northern 150 on loan to TfW) for a journey down the Marches (although technically there are other cities on route, I do not think anyone will argue they compete with Sheffield for traffic generation).

 

[Djgr]

Strange response.

Using emotive language such as Broken Britain is clearly misplaced when the train passes through so much which has been good (and non-London centric) about the past decades. Note that we have had governments of both persuasions in that time and Manchester is a Labour run city.

If the idea is to say that better trains are needed just say it, the Broken Britain is clearly in the headline for a reason.

Anyone with an ounce of understanding can see that Britain is currently broken every which way.

The article is also a good reminder that, despite the weasel words of Bojo and his ilk, England is run in the South, by the South and for the South.

 

[zwk500]

Anyone with an ounce of understanding can see that Britain is currently broken every which way.

The article is also a good reminder that, despite the weasel words of Bojo and his ilk, England is run in the South, by the South and for the South.

If only the south were so lucky. England is run for the City of London.

 

[BeccaOnATrain]

The EMR service on this route has suffered severe overcrowding & reliability issues since its inception as a regular DMU operated service in 1988 under the Regional Railways banner & through the Central Trains & EMT eras.

I've heard this mentioned a few times, people have been putting up with this level of service for 20, 30 years, etc.
But why and how has it continued to be operated like this for such an long length of time? Were improvements to this line put forward during any of the franchise changes it has had over the years?

 

[dk1]

I've heard this mentioned a few times, people have been putting up with this level of service for 20, 30 years, etc.
But why and how has it continued to be operated like this for such an long length of time? Were improvements to this line put forward during any of the franchise changes it has had over the years?

It’s just muddled through never really getting any better through various well documented failures over the years. I’ve given up hoping things will one day improve.

 

[6Gman]

The route used to reliably turn out four carriage 158's for many years with occasional substitutions. Infact for a long time, EMT/R was the most reliable way of getting a seat between Manchester and Sheffield. Started going fown the pan some time before the Pandemic as I recall.

As with the rest of the railway, TOC being strong-armed into getting rid of too much rolling stock without adequate replacements.

Indeed.

Meanwhile 153s have been adapted to carry bicycles in Scotland. Which is fine and dandy, but ...