A depressingly familiar journey through broken Britain

[yorksrob]

Is there? Is it not cleaner for passengers to only need 1 route?

Ah, but there are many different definitions of 'good'. The key question is:- where do the good folk of Warrington *actually* want to go, not where do these forums think they should want to go. But you'd need LENNON or MOIRA data to know that.
Bear in mind that Warrington BQ offers (or has offered in the past) services to/from both Manchester and Liverpool via Chat Moss as well as the CLC route, and that allows connections in and out of the WCML - quite valuable for traffic from, say, Runcorn or Chester.

Indeed. Having everything running the same stopping pattern would be one way. 'Ormskirking' it would be another. both would require fairly minimal intervention now that Merseyrail have 777s.

Now you're taking a problem with an imperfect interregional line (lets face it, most of the problems are rolling stock problems, staffing problems, rarely infrastructure constraints).

And your solution is to stop all longer distance trains and shove a set of buffers in the middle of Warrington.

Incredibly disruptive solutions for minor problems.

 

[urbophile]

Having today just travelled on this route, from Liverpool to south of Sheffield, a few comments. 4 coaches in both directions: outward not very crowded even past Manchester, return quite full though not overcrowded. The trains are nowhere near as comfortable as the Transpennine bi-modes; the seats are cramped and not very well upholstered. I hate the bright red colour scheme but that's a matter of taste. The noise of the diesel engines is annoying. But few trains seem to have been cancelled and punctuality was reasonable (despite a few minutes delay on return caused by a bridge problem I understand)

Yes there is a big turnover of passengers at Manchester, but I reckon there are enough through passengers to justify the through service. Running the Liverpool-Manchester section via Chat Moss would be an advantage if the rest of the route were electrified (though the CLC should be too); the disadvantage would be in removing Warrington from any west-east intercity connectivity. Also it was noticeable how many people disembarked at South Parkway on the return journey (it seemed like half the train, probably most of them from Manchester); there is a large passenger market in the south of Liverpool which would not be well served by forcing them to travel into Lime Street and backtrack.

 

[Bartsimho]

Is it possible to operate Liverpool to Norwich via Derby, would that provide a more reliable service.

Maybe? But it would need reversal at Derby.

It's not quicker and hits less population centres so would be less useful. It has to be remembered this is the only Nottingham to Manchester service as well.

Also it has to hit sprinter differentials in certain places. I know it does round Thetford but I'm unsure if it does in the Hope Valley.

Really what needs to happen is the Hope Valley Capacity issues are sorted and then the frequency increased with 1tph running just Nottingham to Liverpool, 1tph Norwich to Liverpool as well as this improves Nottingham to Sheffield service as well.

The service is busy all the way from Nottingham to Liverpool so it needs to be strengthened or have the frequency increased.

Edit: Crazy and Stupid strengthening idea would be have the current 2 car run Norwich to Nottingham and then attach a 5 car 222 at Nottingham so it runs as a 7 car from Nottingham to Liverpool (probably not getting through the Hope Valley though). I don't know when it would be over the Hope Valley differential

 

[londonmidland]

Edit: Crazy and Stupid strengthening idea would be have the current 2 car run Norwich to Nottingham and then attach a 5 car 222 at Nottingham so it runs as a 7 car from Nottingham to Liverpool (probably not getting through the Hope Valley though). I don't know when it would be over the Hope Valley differential

There might be a few issues trying to attach a 158 to a 222

What the route could really do with is a 5 or 6 car 158 from Nottingham to Liverpool.

 

[nw1]

Even as a major core city, Liverpool should justify decent services across the country.

This deserves a thread of its own, but Lime Street of course used to be part of the XC network. On the minus side the service was only two-hourly to Birmingham.

Thread now created:

Liverpool XC - when and why was it transferred from XC to RR?

Follows on a bit from the current thread on "broken Britain" services into Liverpool from over the Pennines but, having been thinking quite a bit about the "classic" XC era (up to early Virgin) recently, I'm wondering when, and why, XC lost most of its Liverpool services. For most of the 80s...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[dk1]

Maybe? But it would need reversal at Derby.

Is it possible to operate Liverpool to Norwich via Derby, would that provide a more reliable service.

And lose much of the market the entire route was designed to serve.

On a few Sundays many years ago there was engineering works and it did operate via Crewe/Derby. Journey times were exactly 35 minutes quicker but without stopping at the important intermediate stations.

 

[Falcon1200]

So because you rarely experience late and poorly cleaned/maintained trains then no one else does? Right gotcha.

I did a quick search for a snapshot of weekday evening services local to me, and found that by far the majority of them were late.

In the last week I made the following train journeys;
Monday; Glasgow-Oxford including a side trip to Kent
Tuesday; Day trip to experience an XC HST
Wednesday; Day trip to the Avon Valley Railway
Friday (yesterday); Oxford-Glasgow.

In the course of which I used the following Train Operators;
Scotrail
Avanti West Coast
Thameslink
South Eastern
London Overground
Great Western Railway
Cross Country Trains

The only delay more than a couple of minutes on any train was once, on the way home yesterday, 24 minutes due to a freight train problem. So quite a few passengers other than me experienced on time services, every single train was clean, and none of them broke down!

Safety is the one and only thing our railways excel in.

Which is far and away the most important thing to excel in. It can also be said that a rigorous focus on safety was in the fact the reason for yesterday's delay (freight stopped after a problem reported, both lines blocked while the Driver examined the train).

But I do of course acknowledge that there are multiple problems on our railway, of which ludicrous decisions such as withdrawing the XC (and other) HSTs is a particular example. But neither do I recognise the totally broken railway, or indeed Britain, that others describe.

 

[The Planner]

Maybe? But it would need reversal at Derby.

It's not quicker and hits less population centres so would be less useful. It has to be remembered this is the only Nottingham to Manchester service as well.

Why would it need to reverse if its going Nottingham Derby Chesterfield? Its only Alfreton that loses out, but as you note, there is a sizeable time penalty.

 

[dk1]

Why would it need to reverse if its going Nottingham Derby Chesterfield? Its only Alfreton that loses out, but as you note, there is a sizeable time penalty.

I thought that at first obviously but the assumed the poster meant if going via Crewe/Stoke from Liverpool.

 

[Bartsimho]

I thought that at first obviously but the assumed the poster meant if going via Crewe/Stoke from Liverpool.

That's what I thought hence reversal at Derby. There is absolutely no logic as to heading Chesterfield, Derby then Nottingham as the lines and other services would mean everyone takes the Northern service from Nottingham to Leeds service then change at Sheffield to catch probably the same train but they might catch the earlier one.

 

[dk1]

That's what I thought hence reversal at Derby. There is absolutely no logic as to heading Chesterfield, Derby then Nottingham as the lines and other services would mean everyone takes the Northern service from Nottingham to Leeds service then change at Sheffield to catch probably the same train but they might catch the earlier one.

A few services went this way back in the early ‘EXPRESS’ days usually after using the Dore curve. This was soon deemed impractical & they ceased within a timetable or two.

 

[frodshamfella]

Travelling now from Acton Bridge to Exeter. Train nearly 20 mins late, hopefully will still make my connection at Stafford. Not a great start.

Travelling now from Acton Bridge to Exeter. Train nearly 20 mins late, hopefully will still make my connection at Stafford. Not a great start.

Getting worse. The service from Stafford is cancelled beyond Bristol .

 

[dk1]

Travelling now from Acton Bridge to Exeter. Train nearly 20 mins late, hopefully will still make my connection at Stafford. Not a great start.


Getting worse. The service from Stafford is cancelled beyond Bristol .

What's occurring? No ASLEF dispute this week although i think XC are struggling anyway.

Ah just seen, it is due to driver shortage. Hopefully you'll only be around 20L arriving St.Davids on the following Plymouth service.

 

[Llandudno]

Travelling now from Acton Bridge to Exeter. Train nearly 20 mins late, hopefully will still make my connection at Stafford. Not a great start.


Getting worse. The service from Stafford is cancelled beyond Bristol .

You might end up getting (eventually!) to Exeter for free at this rate with delay repay!

Every cloud…?

 

[modernrail]

You absolutely do, see for example Chiltern putting out 2-car sets which are rammed and standing, and how utterly awful the GWR suburbans were before electrification. The SE is not a land of milk and honey.

Comparatively it absolutely is. I remember when my sister first came down for a visit and said to me ‘is this an intercity like London to Liverpool’? We were on the London to Oxted. She reacted that no wonder people use the trains ‘down here’ if they are like this.

She is a bit younger than me and grew up mostly having the benefit in Merseyrail, although also had the dirty, unreliable and slow Southport to Manchester service. I had mostly the West Yorkshire version growing up, which other than that Airedale and Wharfedale, was largely a joke.

In terms of capacity and frequency, services in the north have generally been substandard for years, with small pockets of ok/good.

Services in the south have generally been good for years, with pockets of substandard. That’s the difference to me.

The sparks effect is one element of this, but the one that has always got me is the sheer filth and short forming of local/regional trains in the north. The rolling stock position is finally improving a bit (although Northern still severely allergic to cleaning their bloody trains) but then we get unbelievably annoying situations like TP where finally we have trains that are in some cases long enough and then the operating company implodes wasting a precious asset and taking the service even further back.

 

[sprunt]

The rail industry is not to blame, the Government is, in my view (see above).

Okay, that's fair, but I'd include the DfT as part of the rail industry, especially in the context of my comment which was a reply to someone asking what I thought should be done, as if I were the one with the rail expertise.

Anyway, as I'm planning a Manchester to Liverpool trip in October this thread has made me a little nervous. I'm planning to go out on Friday evening and back on the Sunday - for the outward trip might it be easier to get to Sheffield on a service starting at Manchester and change there to Nottingham rather than struggling to crush onto the direct train? I'm in no particular hurry, the only thing I'm planning to do on Friday in Nottingham is check in to my hotel.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Anyway, as I'm planning a Manchester to Liverpool trip in October this thread has made me a little nervous. I'm planning to go out on Friday evening and back on the Sunday - for the outward trip might it be easier to get to Sheffield on a service starting at Manchester and change there to Nottingham rather than struggling to crush onto the direct train? I'm in no particular hurry, the only thing I'm planning to do on Friday in Nottingham is check in to my hotel.

Are you going to Liverpool or Nottingham?
For Nottingham assuming they run on time you could easily check the EMR that arrives at xx:41 and if that's too busy quickly head towards the low numbered platforms for the xx:48 Northern.
Also you'd likely end up on the same EMR from Sheffield anyway due to the timings, as the Leeds - Nottingham leaves Sheffield as the Northern from Manchester arrives.

 

[sprunt]

Are you going to Liverpool or Nottingham?
For Nottingham assuming they run on time you could easily check the EMR that arrives at xx:41 and if that's too busy quickly head towards the low numbered platforms for the xx:48 Northern.
Also you'd likely end up on the same EMR from Sheffield anyway due to the timings, as the Leeds - Nottingham leaves Sheffield as the Northern from Manchester arrives.

D'oh - I'm going to Nottingham, sorry.

Fair point about being on the same EMR train anyway, thanks. I guess I'll just have to gird my loins* and get my elbows out...

*Is there anything else that can be girded?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

D'oh - I'm going to Nottingham, sorry.

Fair point about being on the same EMR train anyway, thanks. I guess I'll just have to gird my loins* and get my elbows out...

*Is there anything else that can be girded?

I don't know how useful this would be but you could try getting on at Oxford Road compared to Piccadilly if you have time spare. It probably wouldn't cost more for such as short addition to the route, and might give you a bit of a bigger chance to get a seat.

 

[LowLevel]

I don't know how useful this would be but you could try getting on at Oxford Road compared to Piccadilly if you have time spare. It probably wouldn't cost more for such as short addition to the route, and might give you a bit of a bigger chance to get a seat.

Is the best advice. Always board at Oxford Road, usually down near the lift shaft for basically 100% chance of a seat.

 

[dunc695]

Having today just travelled on this route, from Liverpool to south of Sheffield, a few comments. 4 coaches in both directions: outward not very crowded even past Manchester, return quite full though not overcrowded. The trains are nowhere near as comfortable as the Transpennine bi-modes; the seats are cramped and not very well upholstered. I hate the bright red colour scheme but that's a matter of taste. The noise of the diesel engines is annoying. But few trains seem to have been cancelled and punctuality was reasonable (despite a few minutes delay on return caused by a bridge problem I understand)

Yes there is a big turnover of passengers at Manchester, but I reckon there are enough through passengers to justify the through service. Running the Liverpool-Manchester section via Chat Moss would be an advantage if the rest of the route were electrified (though the CLC should be too); the disadvantage would be in removing Warrington from any west-east intercity connectivity. Also it was noticeable how many people disembarked at South Parkway on the return journey (it seemed like half the train, probably most of them from Manchester); there is a large passenger market in the south of Liverpool which would not be well served by forcing them to travel into Lime Street and backtrack.

The close connection into the Merseyrail Northern line must prove popular at South Parkway, some of these passengers getting off CLC services could be headed for North Liverpool or the Wirral. Far better getting off here than via Lime Street and down several steep escalators, not great if you have luggage.

 

[urbophile]

The close connection into the Merseyrail Northern line must prove popular at South Parkway, some of these passengers getting off CLC services could be headed for North Liverpool or the Wirral. Far better getting off here than via Lime Street and down several steep escalators, not great if you have luggage.

I headed for the Merseyrail connection too, and noticed a few other passengers from my train doing the same. But the vast majority of passengers disembarking seemed to go elsewhere, probably mostly to the car park.

Yes it's a much better connection for the Northern line than via Lime Street. But there is little advantage if you are heading for the Wirral. There is a direct lift from the upper concourse at LS to the Wirral line platform, just as there is between platforms at Central.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't know how useful this would be but you could try getting on at Oxford Road compared to Piccadilly if you have time spare. It probably wouldn't cost more for such as short addition to the route, and might give you a bit of a bigger chance to get a seat.

I used to do this quite often when travelling over the Hope Valley.

 

[londonmidland]

If boarding at Piccadilly, walk down to the 4 car stop board sign, located near the end of platform 13. The sign itself is mounted to the lamp post for reference. Not many people 'know' that the train goes this far down the platform, so you'll get a bigger chance of gaining a seat onboard if you wait here.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

A lot of the comments on that article seem to be referring to the journalist's political inclinations and saying to get over it etc - 2 cars is clearly not enough but it's not news really. I eagerly await Labour's immediate solution to this line's overcrowding...

... the solution is keep as is for another 13 years of abject misery (1997 - 2010 all over again), both Liebour and Conservative are both useless. Kick out the main two and get Reform UK in we might actually see the railways having enough rolling stock and maybe an act of parliament stating that new rolling stock must be ordered once every five years with no BR era rolling stock being scrapped unless life expired but converted into hybrids in order to retain suitable capacity. This would make rail operators stick with whatever old stock that they have and use it on the most busiest of routes.

 

[urbophile]

I don't know why you think UKIP Mark 2 would be the best solution for the railways, or anything else. But it seems to me that the next government (of whatever label) urgently needs to stop pussyfooting around and invest wisely and generously in improving the whole system, including electrification of all except minor rural lines. Only then will we have any chance of reducing our carbon footprint and building a civilised society, let alone ensuring the survival of our planet.

 

[irish_rail]

... the solution is keep as is for another 13 years of abject misery (1997 - 2010 all over again), both Liebour and Conservative are both useless. Kick out the main two and get Reform UK in we might actually see the railways having enough rolling stock and maybe an act of parliament stating that new rolling stock must be ordered once every five years with no BR era rolling stock being scrapped unless life expired but converted into hybrids in order to retain suitable capacity. This would make rail operators stick with whatever old stock that they have and use it on the most busiest of routes.

reform uk!? Hasnt Farage done enough damage to this country already!? I can see it now, sort out the railways by barring foreigners the right to travel. That'll sort the overcrowding then.....