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ULEZ - Plans (and would you have to pay?)

would you have to pay in you lived in a ULEZ due to the car(s) you own?

  • Yes

    Votes: 27 12.3%
  • Yes, but am looking to change cars in the next 6 months

    Votes: 4 1.8%
  • No

    Votes: 188 85.8%

  • Total voters
    219
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Dai Corner

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Just an observation, but life expectation at birth is higher in London than anywhere else in the UK according to the ONS tables here.

This paragraph in particular notes increases in life expectancy in central London
A significant reduction in male life expectancy occurred in Hertsmere (1.9 years), but a significant increase occurred in Westminster (2.1 years); for females a significant reduction occurred in Derby (1.1 years), but a significant increase occurred in Kensington and Chelsea (1.7 years).
 
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bramling

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That is true, and most of those risks that generally affect the perpetrator of the hazard. Pollution on the scale that is now regularly encountered in the ULEZ (original and extended), affect the population that is unlucky enough to just live there.

I don’t really buy that most of this pollution is from outsiders, not for the expanded ULEZ at any rate, perhaps with the exception of a few key routes which take large volumes of traffic further into London (for example the A1, A40 etc). Car ownership in the suburbs is high, and people certainly use them. Pick any suburban London “high street” and see how much car use there is, I’m not sure who would drive to these sorts of places except Londoners. Certainly few are going to travel from the Home Counties to go shopping in somewhere like North Finchley or Edgware!


You should note that my whole post was in reply to @bramling 's post, and it is my belief that although he works in the City of London, he commutes in from the north-east of Hertfordshire, i.e. well away from areas with the current pollution levels of the ULEZ.

More or less correct, though my work isn’t in the actual square mile. As it happens my office is quite near the inner ring road, so pollution is a matter of potential salience to me. It’s also worth adding that parts of Hertfordshire aren’t exactly great on this either, and I’d imagine that applies to parts of St Albans as well.
 

Andrew*Debbie

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I don't own a car. Debbie's Mazda is complient and would not have to pay a ULEZ fee.

In the 16 years we've lived in the UK, I've driven in greater London exactly twice. Both were test drives in prototype or just introduced electric cars.
 

AM9

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More or less correct, though my work isn’t in the actual square mile. As it happens my office is quite near the inner ring road, so pollution is a matter of potential salience to me. It’s also worth adding that parts of Hertfordshire aren’t exactly great on this either, and I’d imagine that applies to parts of St Albans as well.
Yes, despite a particularly high proportion of EVs and an even bigger proportion of IC vehicles having stop-start facilities, the junction at the top of Holywell Hill has a partularly high level of pollution that regularly far exceeds the WHO safety levels and that aroma also persists right along St Peters Street where walking is thankfully, the dominant mode. Most of the cars queue the whole length of on busy shopping days. I'm at a loss why so many drivers can't bypass the town centre, it isn't that difficult, (except the King Harry junction which is a pain to all, - even those that also pass through the city centre).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Just an observation, but life expectation at birth is higher in London than anywhere else in the UK according to the ONS tables here.

This paragraph in particular notes increases in life expectancy in central London
Life expectancy is affected by a number of factors including air quality. In the document you attached, the graphs show a recent change in direction, (i.e. downwards), particularly in regions with major urban centres, e.g. North East, North West, Yorkshire and of course. london. The higher base that London starts from is probably down to better weather, housing stock quality, and generally higher living standards. London't pollution issues are far more serious than Manchester/Leeds/Liverpool/Newcastle etc., because of its sheer size, - airborne pollution is spread over sucha large area that it is further and more difficult for those that live within it to escape.
 
Last edited:

Cbob

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I don’t really buy that most of this pollution is from outsiders, not for the expanded ULEZ at any rate, perhaps with the exception of a few key routes which take large volumes of traffic further into London (for example the A1, A40 etc). Car ownership in the suburbs is high, and people certainly use them. Pick any suburban London “high street” and see how much car use there is, I’m not sure who would drive to these sorts of places except Londoners. Certainly few are going to travel from the Home Counties to go shopping in somewhere like North Finchley or Edgware!

Agree, there's plenty of opportunity to improve public transport in zones 4 and outwards. It requires investment but councils don't have the resources. Instead we get traffic clogged roads. 'Super loop' is tiny in the grand scheme of things.
 

Dai Corner

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Yes, despite a particularly high proportion of EVs and an even bigger proportion of IC vehicles having stop-start facilities, the junction at the top of Holywell Hill has a partularly high level of pollution that regularly far exceeds the WHO safety levels and that aroma also persists right along St Peters Street where walking is thankfully, the dominant mode. Most of the cars queue the whole length of on busy shopping days. I'm at a loss why so many drivers can't bypass the town centre, it isn't that difficult, (except the King Harry junction which is a pain to all, - even those that also pass through the city centre).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Life expectancy is affected by a number of factors including air quality. In the document you attached, the graphs show a recent change in direction, (i.e. downwards), particularly in regions with major urban centres, e.g. North East, North West, Yorkshire and of course. london. The higher base that London starts from is probably down to better weather, housing stock quality, and generally higher living standards. London't pollution issues are far more serious than Manchester/Leeds/Liverpool/Newcastle etc., because of its sheer size, - airborne pollution is spread over sucha large area that it is further and more difficult for those that live within it to escape.
You don't think the inner ULEZ contributed to the increase in life expectancy in Westminster and Kensington & Chelsea then?
 

PeterC

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True, but we were told that the future lay in nice clean green cars running on unleaded fuel with a catalytic converter.
I don't remember ever being told that removing lead from petrol would solve every possible environmental issue for all eternity.

It was an incremental change that dealt with one specific issue over 30 years ago. Since then new developments, such as viable (for most people) electric cars, mean that we can move on and make things better still.
 

The Ham

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Not necessarily disagreeing in principle, however it does seem to be the case that a significant quantity of Londoners don’t see this as a problem, especially in the suburbs, where there is considerable car use (of both compliant and non-compliant vehicles). Much of this car use is completely avoidable given the high number of very short journeys I see, as well as a decent (ish) transport network - though noting of course that London’s buses aren’t especially “clean” either.

It seems a majority of people are content to trade-off air quality for the expedience of the car.

Meanwhile, politicians - including Khan - make no attempt to deal with population growth, which is of course contributing to poor air quality. Even if someone doesn’t own a car they will still be contributing to pollution in terms of things like delivery vehicles, tradesmen, etc etc. On this basis one can’t help but be rather cynical when politicians start on about London’s air quality.

I suspect that there's an element of inaction, in that as a kid many would be driven to school, so "learn" that travel by car is normal (and by extension walking and cycling are abnormal), so when they become adults either they stick with what they learned or they have to make an effort to change their perception (and therefore their behaviour).

Now whilst there's always going to be other people's contributions to emissions due to you requiring their goods/services, the majority are going to be linked to the individual themselves.

I don't know how often others have trades people to their dwelling, but it is fairly rare to our house, even deliveries tend to a few a week (rather than typically a several movements a day for our travel - by whatever mode). As such the impact from those are going to be very much reduced.

Also, if you run a business within the ULEZ the cost of £12.50/day is going to ramp up very quickly, and so it's going to make business sense to ensure your vehicle is exempt.

As to population growth, what do you suggest that is done and is it within the power of the London Mayor?

I’m really struggling with the concept of arguing against cleaner air. The expanded ULEZ is simply one policy (of many) to bring it about. Of course there are winners and losers, as there are with all policies.

Indeed.

They are not viable for most people.

In what way are EV's not suitable for most people? Most answers to this question boil down to the upfront costs (but ignore reduced ongoing costs) or people being unwilling to do things differently (I must be able to fill up at any time vs I should be prepared and ensure my car is charged), even though the change isn't all that significant.

However that's not what's required to go into the ULEZ for free, so doesn't really add to this debate. Whilst that maybe the case at sometime in the future, if you start for planning for that being the case then you'll less likely be caught out when it happens.
 

greyman42

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In what way are EV's not suitable for most people? Most answers to this question boil down to the upfront costs (but ignore reduced ongoing costs) or people being unwilling to do things differently (I must be able to fill up at any time vs I should be prepared and ensure my car is charged), even though the change isn't all that significant.
A lot of people are going to be living in houses/apartments that have no viable charging options.
 

GusB

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A lot of people are going to be living in houses/apartments that have no viable charging options.
This has been brought up so many times before. Not everyone needs to charge at home.

I don't have a petrol pump outside my house, so having a petrol car is unviable according to your logic.
 

greyman42

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This has been brought up so many times before. Not everyone needs to charge at home.

I don't have a petrol pump outside my house, so having a petrol car is unviable according to your logic.
Petrol stations are plentiful and quick to fill up your car.
Charging points are neither.
 

The Ham

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Petrol stations are plentiful and quick to fill up your car.
Charging points are neither.

However there's a LOT of chargers being provided for kerbside parking, likewise is entirely possible so other things whilst a car is charging (like shopping, working, eating a meal, etc.) at a destination location.
 

deltic

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How many are ULEZ compliant and therefore useful for someone taking advantage of the scrappage scheme before the money runs out? What condition are they in at that price?
All are advertised as ULEZ compliant

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Petrol stations are plentiful and quick to fill up your car.
Charging points are neither.
there are far more charging points than petrol pumps in London around 15,000 to 5,000 - and that excludes private charging points
 

341o2

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I don't remember ever being told that removing lead from petrol would solve every possible environmental issue for all eternity.
True, today's mantra is that removing cars will solve every possible environmental issue for all eternity
 

Snow1964

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there are far more charging points than petrol pumps in London around 15,000 to 5,000 - and that excludes private charging points
London also has far higher rate of chargers per 100,000 population
152 (UK average is 66, and many English regions under third of London (North West is lowly 39 per 100,000). So those living in London have 3 chargers for each one most of country has.

Lots of data

There are links on the linked Government statistics to EVCD 01a and EVCD 01b which break down data into local authorities
 

The Ham

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True, today's mantra is that removing cars will solve every possible environmental issue for all eternity

Whilst cars do cause significant problems (and not just from emissions, but also land use and roast safety aspects too) they do have benefits. They also aren't the only issue when it comes to warming the planet, as other gases (other than CO2) are more potent when it comes to warming.

That said, those other gases breakdown more rapidly than CO2 - so whilst stopping emitting them would be very good in the much shorter term we can't just get on as we always have with our CO2 emissions.

The frustrating thing is that if a bit more change had been made even 30 years ago and a bit more progress each year since then the issue would have been very much reduced. 50 years ago would have been even better.

As I've said before the changes, if we'd started longer ago, could have been smaller and wouldn't have been noticeable to the majority of people and would have still driven the economy forwards.

For example better institution in new buildings would have meant less need for gas, allowing our balance of payments to be more towards our favour, as we could have exported more North Sea gas and would have needed to import lease crude oil. It would have also meant that fewer government grants for cavity wall insulation would have been needed (if say the requirement was to have some wall and better roof insulation from 1980 onwards).

Not only that but the cost to households would have been reduced, meaning more money within the economy. It may not have been much each month, but it could have added up quite nicely. For example (at today's value) an extra £8 off your energy bill is £96 which you could spend on other things (yes it's still not much when your mortgage bill is £1,200 per month or £14,400 per year, if not more - but it would still make things just that tiny little bit easier).

Likewise an earlier shift from coal to gas would have seen emissions reduce. Whilst solar panels being a requirement for new buildings from 2000 would have left us with far more solar capability than we currently have (and a lot more people with reduced bills currently due to generating their own electricity).

More electrification of railway lines, would likely to have resulted in a higher use of rail, not least due to there likely being longer trains. For example electrification to allow (what's now) XC services between the South Coast and Manchester to be run by electric traction could have seen those services being run by EMU, (maybe even the 390's being duel voltage) which would have meant significant extra capacity over parts of the core XC network. Fill in electrification to allow Edinburgh to Birmingham too (and the MML - remembering we've got 50 years in which to make these changes) and that's quite a deal changer for diesel intercity use (and likely train length)

Pair that with retaining more bus routes and the building of cycle infrastructure alongside new roads from 1990 onwards, and car use growth could have been less pronounced.

None of this would have had a significant impact on us personally, and in many cases there would have been benefits (such as lower energy bills if we lived in a "new" building which had solar panels from after 2000, or reduced traffic congestion as there would have been less need for others to own cars).

The big stumbling block, it would have required those in charge to have been willing to change their world view. For example, thinking "whilst cars may be very useful, and even the future and aspirational, is there really going to be the space to facilitate everyone having cars and what about those who either don't wish to use a car or those for some it's not currently adorable or an option (such as those under 20 yet to pass their driving tests).". Rather than "cars are aspirational and the future, how can we make it better for cars" (almost at the expense of all other options).
 

Andrew*Debbie

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They are not viable for most people.

Used prices have come down more then many people are aware of. For example a 2020 Peugoet is advertised on Autotrader for £13,955. This is a comfortable car with decent single charge range.

At the bottom end you can pick up a 10 year old Nissan LEAF with enough range for everyday trips for under £4,000.

If you have off-road parking at home, charging is mostly a non-issue. When I had a "100 mile" EV, I rarely needed to charge away from home.. With a 150 mile car, I almost never did.

Public charging infrastructure still needs some improvement but it is getting there. I'm seeing more and more charge points appear.
 

AM9

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The sooner the better, particularly outside schools.
Yes, schools, areas of high pedestrian use, e.g. shopping streets, station/hotel/hospital drop-off points, - there's no excuse for running the engine whilst stationary for more than 20 seconds. Probably one of the most irritating habits of needless engine running is when making calls from a mobile phone. Strictly illegal, as the driver is not in full control of the vehicle with the engine running.
 

bramling

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Whilst cars do cause significant problems (and not just from emissions, but also land use and roast safety aspects too) they do have benefits. They also aren't the only issue when it comes to warming the planet, as other gases (other than CO2) are more potent when it comes to warming.

That said, those other gases breakdown more rapidly than CO2 - so whilst stopping emitting them would be very good in the much shorter term we can't just get on as we always have with our CO2 emissions.

The frustrating thing is that if a bit more change had been made even 30 years ago and a bit more progress each year since then the issue would have been very much reduced. 50 years ago would have been even better.

As I've said before the changes, if we'd started longer ago, could have been smaller and wouldn't have been noticeable to the majority of people and would have still driven the economy forwards.

For example better institution in new buildings would have meant less need for gas, allowing our balance of payments to be more towards our favour, as we could have exported more North Sea gas and would have needed to import lease crude oil. It would have also meant that fewer government grants for cavity wall insulation would have been needed (if say the requirement was to have some wall and better roof insulation from 1980 onwards).

Not only that but the cost to households would have been reduced, meaning more money within the economy. It may not have been much each month, but it could have added up quite nicely. For example (at today's value) an extra £8 off your energy bill is £96 which you could spend on other things (yes it's still not much when your mortgage bill is £1,200 per month or £14,400 per year, if not more - but it would still make things just that tiny little bit easier).

Likewise an earlier shift from coal to gas would have seen emissions reduce. Whilst solar panels being a requirement for new buildings from 2000 would have left us with far more solar capability than we currently have (and a lot more people with reduced bills currently due to generating their own electricity).

More electrification of railway lines, would likely to have resulted in a higher use of rail, not least due to there likely being longer trains. For example electrification to allow (what's now) XC services between the South Coast and Manchester to be run by electric traction could have seen those services being run by EMU, (maybe even the 390's being duel voltage) which would have meant significant extra capacity over parts of the core XC network. Fill in electrification to allow Edinburgh to Birmingham too (and the MML - remembering we've got 50 years in which to make these changes) and that's quite a deal changer for diesel intercity use (and likely train length)

Pair that with retaining more bus routes and the building of cycle infrastructure alongside new roads from 1990 onwards, and car use growth could have been less pronounced.

None of this would have had a significant impact on us personally, and in many cases there would have been benefits (such as lower energy bills if we lived in a "new" building which had solar panels from after 2000, or reduced traffic congestion as there would have been less need for others to own cars).

The big stumbling block, it would have required those in charge to have been willing to change their world view. For example, thinking "whilst cars may be very useful, and even the future and aspirational, is there really going to be the space to facilitate everyone having cars and what about those who either don't wish to use a car or those for some it's not currently adorable or an option (such as those under 20 yet to pass their driving tests).". Rather than "cars are aspirational and the future, how can we make it better for cars" (almost at the expense of all other options).

I still get the impression that the baby boom generation see cars as a status symbol, and I simply can’t see that changing. There’s a particularly pig-ignorant 60-something in my road who struts around in his Range Rover and whom I don’t think I’ve *ever* seen leave or approach his house on foot. The guy is an absolute toxic moron to the point where I have doubts about his mental health, but I can’t see much changing him. There’s another guy also in my road who has a rather less objectionable personality but nonetheless will drive even 200m round the corner to his parents’ house.

By contrast I don’t know any young people like that. Indeed round here most young people are utterly polite and pleasant and it’s the baby boomers who are generally obnoxious.
 

AM9

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I still get the impression that the baby boom generation see cars as a status symbol, and I simply can’t see that changing. There’s a particularly pig-ignorant 60-something in my road who struts around in his Range Rover and whom I don’t think I’ve *ever* seen leave or approach his house on foot. The guy is an absolute toxic moron to the point where I have doubts about his mental health, but I can’t see much changing him. There’s another guy also in my road who has a rather less objectionable personality but nonetheless will drive even 200m round the corner to his parents’ house.

By contrast I don’t know any young people like that. Indeed round here most young people are utterly polite and pleasant and it’s the baby boomers who are generally obnoxious.
Cars have been sold as status symbols since their introduction. Unfortunately, a large part of the population in every country suck up the hype and spend their money. I don't think that baby boomers are more taken in by the hype, it's just that as a demographic, they have more disposable funds.
 

bramling

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Cars have been sold as status symbols since their introduction. Unfortunately, a large part of the population in every country suck up the hype and spend their money. I don't think that baby boomers are more taken in by the hype, it's just that as a demographic, they have more disposable funds.

Maybe, but round here I get the feeling young people have better things to be interested in, such as going to the gym or whatever. You may well be right that the root cause of this is disposable income. It may also be a local thing as it tends to be the baby boomers bragging about how “wealthy” this town is.
 

Dai Corner

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Maybe, but round here I get the feeling young people have better things to be interested in, such as going to the gym or whatever. You may well be right that the root cause of this is disposable income. It may also be a local thing as it tends to be the baby boomers bragging about how “wealthy” this town is.
How do they get around?
 

AM9

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Maybe, but round here I get the feeling young people have better things to be interested in, such as going to the gym or whatever. You may well be right that the root cause of this is disposable income. It may also be a local thing as it tends to be the baby boomers bragging about how “wealthy” this town is.
Well St Albans actualy is a wealthy district, but a large proportion of the population uses cycling or walking to get around because:
a) they can and it is generally quite pleasant to do​
b) many commute to london and traffic to or from the station can take a lot longer in the peaks.​
 

bramling

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How do they get around?

Many young people here do have cars, but
(1) they don’t get used anything like as often as older groups
and
(2) the cars they do have tend to be a lot more sensible

Ironically it’s also quite conspicuous that most young people round here drive fairly considerately. The aggressive ones are pretty much guaranteed to be greying men, with a few such women thrown in for good measure too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Well St Albans actualy is a wealthy district, but a large proportion of the population uses cycling or walking to get around because:
a) they can and it is generally quite pleasant to do​
b) many commute to london and traffic to or from the station can take a lot longer in the peaks.​

You can forget cycling here sadly. I used to be keen on it, but it has simply become too much of a liability.

When I was knocked off my road bike at over 30 mph I was fortunate to walk away with very little damage indeed, but it would have been very different had something been coming the other way at the time.

The powers that be keep overloading the area with new car-oriented housing estates, and this in turn has contributed to overloading the local roads. I’m not averse to cycling, and probably walk more than the vast majority of the population, but using the bicycle as a regular run-around here just isn’t a viable option.
 

greyman42

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They will be by the time new IC cars are unavailable.
In reality, new IC cars are going to be available for many years to come. Manufacturers will carry on making them if the demand is there.
 

jon0844

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Many car makers are going to stop making anything but hybrids and EVs by 2025. They're not waiting until the deadline as they've already seen demand growing, and economy of scale means it's better to go all in than still make a handful of ICE vehicles for an ever diminishing market.
 

greyman42

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Many car makers are going to stop making anything but hybrids and EVs by 2025. They're not waiting until the deadline as they've already seen demand growing, and economy of scale means it's better to go all in than still make a handful of ICE vehicles for an ever diminishing market.
The deadline is not going to happen.
 
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