December 2023 Timetable Change

[xotGD]

I've had a look for December 2023 for Northern and Airedale and Wharfedale line services still interwork together, rather than what has been proposed of 10 x 3 car 331s working Bradford - Skipton/Ilkley services alone.

No reinstatement of the missing Bradford - Skipton and Bradford - Ilkley services either.

 

[dk1]

Looks like 08:51 ex-Lime Street is reinstated throughout but the 12:51 still terminates Nottingham.

 

[PGAT]

There’s one extra Southern train to Hemel Hempstead. 1010 from East Croydon and 1138 to East Croydon

 

[sufian123]

Hi how come Birmingham NS to Crewe via Stoke is terminating at Stafford?

 

[Halish Railway]

Hi how come Birmingham NS to Crewe via Stoke is terminating at Stafford?

I'm not sure, but it's worth noting that they have been retimed to leave Crewe at 33 minutes past the hour, rather than 59 minutes past, meaning that they're more evenly spaced from the Newark Castle EMR trains between Crewe and Stoke.

Its a bit ridiculous really considering that before the pandemic Penkridge was served by these trains (which ran non-stop from Wolverhampton to Birmingham), as well as 2tph Liverpool to Birmingham, whereas from December it'll be served by just 1tph Liverpool to Birmingham.

I've had a look for December 2023 for Northern and Airedale and Wharfedale line services still interwork together, rather than what has been proposed of 10 x 3 car 331s working Bradford - Skipton/Ilkley services alone. In the west, Liverpool - Manchester Airport services interwork with Wigan stoppers and the odd Blackpool North services, with further 4 car 331s working some late Blackpool - Manchester Airport services to get stock over presumably to work Alderley Edge services.

The peak time Liverpool to Stalybridge 331/1 services that were rumoured to start in December also aren't in the timetable, so I think the swap has been deferred.

 

[The Planner]

I'm not sure, but it's worth noting that they have been retimed to leave Crewe at 33 minutes past the hour, rather than 59 minutes past, meaning that they're more evenly spaced from the Newark Castle EMR trains between Crewe and Stoke.

Its a bit ridiculous really considering that before the pandemic Penkridge was served by these trains (which ran non-stop from Wolverhampton to Birmingham), as well as 2tph Liverpool to Birmingham, whereas from December it'll be served by just 1tph Liverpool to Birmingham.


The peak time Liverpool to Stalybridge 331/1 services that were rumoured to start in December also aren't in the timetable, so I think the swap has been deferred.

Second Liverpool should be back in December.

 

[sufian123]

Second Liverpool should be back in December.

They are looks like it on RTT

 

[CAF397]

Are we not having any warnings not to rely on these uploads like we had last year, as things can change?

The TPE one will probably be unreliable, as what will be uploaded will be what was bid earlier in the year, not reflecting any possible "recovery" timetable.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Are we not having any warnings not to rely on these uploads like we had last year, as things can change?

The TPE one will probably be unreliable, as what will be uploaded will be what was bid earlier in the year, not reflecting any possible "recovery" timetable.

Correct, at the moment industry timescales are that services are not confirmed until 8 weeks out.

Usually there isn’t substantial changes however some of the December changes for DfT contracted TOCs are still going through government sign off.

 

[Kite159]

So the first LNR train towards Birmingham on a Sunday morning has changed from being the 09;05 Crewe to Birmingham New Street arriving at 10:39 to the 1033 Liverpool Lime Street to Birmingham New Street arriving at 12;18... That assuming you can get on that train at Crewe.

No doubt all those Birmingham passengers who would take the LNR train at 09;05 will be forced into paying a lot more money to use the crush loaded XC service at a similar time. Especially at the times there is engineering works on the Trent Valley where passengers prefer going via Birmingham rather than playing replacement bus bingo

Railways, forever putting passengers first

 

[JonathanH]

So the first LNR train towards Birmingham on a Sunday morning has changed from being the 09;05 Crewe to Birmingham New Street arriving at 10:39 to the 1033 Liverpool Lime Street to Birmingham New Street arriving at 12;18... That assuming you can get on that train at Crewe.

Is there a possibility that the first train just isn't loaded up yet?

Admittedly it looks like there are just the three CrossCountry trains between Stafford and Wolverhampton at 0925, 1025 and 1125, forming the only trains on the route.

The first three Birmingham to Liverpool trains all have ECS workings on the Birmingham side so I think you are right.

 

[moonarrow458]

On the Robin Hood line it looks like further cuts loom. On Monday to Fridays it looks like the first Worksop to Nottingham service is cut back to start from Mansfield Woodhouse. Whilst the last Nottingham to Worksop seems to be cut back to Mansfield Woodhouse where the unit sits for 52 minutes before working back to Nottingham as the 2359, which seems odd as the unit could probably make it up to Worksop and back in that time. But these changes don't seem to apply on Saturdays. Could still change but is an indication of things to come.

 

[Phillipimo]

Second Liverpool should be back in December.

Looks like only at peak times (unless this changes). A welcome return of course.

Additional trains:
07:08, 08:08, 09:08 Liverpool - Birmingham
10:08 Liverpool - Crewe

16:08, 17:08, 18:08 Liverpool - Birmingham
20:08 Liverpool - Crewe

 

[Bletchleyite]

So the first LNR train towards Birmingham on a Sunday morning has changed from being the 09;05 Crewe to Birmingham New Street arriving at 10:39 to the 1033 Liverpool Lime Street to Birmingham New Street arriving at 12;18... That assuming you can get on that train at Crewe.

No doubt all those Birmingham passengers who would take the LNR train at 09;05 will be forced into paying a lot more money to use the crush loaded XC service at a similar time. Especially at the times there is engineering works on the Trent Valley where passengers prefer going via Birmingham rather than playing replacement bus bingo

Railways, forever putting passengers first

This is a negative change for certain, but nothing is going to be "crush loaded" at that sort of time on a Sunday morning. The whole railway is very quiet then, it's one of the quietest times of the week. A single 153 would probably provide more than enough capacity on any of these trains.

 

[LowLevel]

On the Robin Hood line it looks like further cuts loom. On Monday to Fridays it looks like the first Worksop to Nottingham service is cut back to start from Mansfield Woodhouse. Whilst the last Nottingham to Worksop seems to be cut back to Mansfield Woodhouse where the unit sits for 52 minutes before working back to Nottingham as the 2359, which seems odd as the unit could probably make it up to Worksop and back in that time. But these changes don't seem to apply on Saturdays. Could still change but is an indication of things to come.

I've been wondering about this and come up with 2 theories:

1 - engineering access to do the long mooted work to remove Creswell box and do whatever is required to Whitwell Tunnel

Or

2 - removal of the night turn at Shirebrook Junction box as a cost saving

Could be either/or or none.

The late train is invariably practically empty between Mansfield and Worksop, the morning train however isn't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Admittedly it looks like there are just the three CrossCountry trains between Stafford and Wolverhampton at 0925, 1025 and 1125, forming the only trains on the route.

Are XC removing some Stafford stops, then? I know they were talking about wanting to carry fewer short distance passengers.

Edit: no they're not, there's almost no change to XC's service between those stations.

 

[LowLevel]

This is a negative change for certain, but nothing is going to be "crush loaded" at that sort of time on a Sunday morning. The whole railway is very quiet then, it's one of the quietest times of the week. A single 153 would probably provide more than enough capacity on any of these trains.

Until you get to Birmingham Christmas Market season of course when trains at that sort of time of day are often wedged.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, edited. The "wobble" service seems to be downgraded to a Stafford-Crewe stopping service only. Ouch! That's rather a downgrade compared to once having a direct London service at those stations.

Until you get to Birmingham Christmas Market season of course when trains at that sort of time of day are often wedged.

True, every rule does have an exception

Looks to be no Saturday Atherton line service at all? Is there major engineering works planned? It doesn't appear to just be missing, the Headbolt Lane services are in as a shuttle to Wigan and the services that normally continue to Southport are in as terminating at Victoria, with the only Southport service being a through Southport-Oxford Road, almost all calling at all stations.

Weekdays appear to be in normally, pretty much unchanged from now.

This is the case for all Saturdays in Jan.

 

[JonathanH]

Are XC removing some Stafford stops, then? I know they were talking about wanting to carry fewer short distance passengers.

Edit: no they're not, there's almost no change to XC's service between those stations.

Sorry, I think you read what I wrote out of context. My point was that on a Sunday morning until 1139, the only services between Stafford and Wolverhampton are hourly XC services, with no LNR service on the route any more until that first train from Liverpool.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, I think you read what I wrote out of context. My point was that on a Sunday morning until 1139, the only services between Stafford and Wolverhampton are hourly XC services, with no LNR service on the route any more until that first train from Liverpool.

Ah, I see.

It appears the "wobble" service is truncated to a Crewe-Stafford shuttle all week, no longer continuing to Birmingham. I'm a bit confused by this, as wasn't this service to be routed via the Camp Hill line when it opens? Or are there no paths for it on the WCML until it does hence the shuttle?

 

[The Planner]

Ah, I see.

It appears the "wobble" service is truncated to a Crewe-Stafford shuttle all week, no longer continuing to Birmingham. I'm a bit confused by this, as wasn't this service to be routed via the Camp Hill line when it opens? Or are there no paths for it on the WCML until it does hence the shuttle?

Allegedly a DfT measure.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm a bit confused by this, as wasn't this service to be routed via the Camp Hill line when it opens?

Not Camp Hill. It is meant to provide the stops at Willenhall and Darlaston on the line between Wolverhampton and Bescot.

https://wmre.org.uk/willenhall-and-darlaston-stations/

Willenhall and Darlaston stations

We’re investing £55 million in 2 new stations at Willenhall and Darlaston. This is part of the West Midlands Rail Programme (WMRP).

The stations will cut journey times to places like Birmingham, Wolverhampton and Walsall. Journeys will be up to 3 times quicker.

The new stations will also open up rail travel to the local community. This will have a wide range of benefits, including:

making it easier to travel for work, education or leisure
reduced congestion on the roads
encouraging greener alternatives to the car

improved station access for everyone
The service frequency on the line when it's open will be:

1 train an hour in each direction between Walsall and Wolverhampton
1 train an hour in each direction between Wolverhampton and Birmingham

The project will create more than 120 jobs during construction. It will also restore more than a hectare of brownfield land. Brownfield land is land that was used for industrial or commercial purposes in the past.

Seems there is a saving to be made not running this service until the new stations open.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Allegedly a DfT measure.

I guess "you can put some second Liverpools in, but only if you get rid of that for now"?

To be fair, when I've seen it it wasn't heavily loaded. The stations it serves aren't busy, Stone was it seems an exception but more as a convenient Parkway when it had a London service; I guess those people are now driving to another station to pick up the London service.

Not Camp Hill. It is meant to provide the stops at Willenhall and Darlaston on the line between Wolverhampton and Bescot.

https://wmre.org.uk/willenhall-and-darlaston-stations/

Seems there is a saving to be made not running this service until the new stations open.

Thanks. Presumably any TfWM subsidy only becomes available when that opens? When's it due?

 

[The Planner]

Presumably any TfWM subsidy only becomes available when that opens? When's it due?

Like the Camp Hills, I doubt before the end of 2024, early 25.

 

[jonnyfan]

Looks to be no Saturday Atherton line service at all? Is there major engineering works planned? It doesn't appear to just be missing, the Headbolt Lane services are in as a shuttle to Wigan and the services that normally continue to Southport are in as terminating at Victoria, with the only Southport service being a through Southport-Oxford Road, almost all calling at all stations.

Weekdays appear to be in normally, pretty much unchanged from now.

This is the case for all Saturdays in Jan.

It looks to be engineering related, no weekend services on the Atherton line or between Bolton and Manchester all January and into February by the looks of things.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It looks to be engineering related, no weekend services on the Atherton line or between Bolton and Manchester all January and into February by the looks of things.

Wow, take both lines at once. Are they doing something to Crow's Nest Junction perhaps?

I hadn't twigged but the Southports appear to be going via Chat Moss, I guess that's why only 1tph - limited paths - and I'm sure noting OPSTA's campaigns they would prefer a Castlefield service over a Victoria one if it was a matter of choosing only one of the two options.

 

[Peter0124]

Anyone know when Scotrail or Avanti will upload their Dec 2023 plan to RTT? Whether its today or tomorrow or later this week etc

 

[jonnyfan]

Wow, take both lines at once. Are they doing something to Crow's Nest Junction perhaps?

I hadn't twigged but the Southports appear to be going via Chat Moss, I guess that's why only 1tph - limited paths - and I'm sure noting OPSTA's campaigns they would prefer a Castlefield service over a Victoria one if it was a matter of choosing only one of the two options.

I was wondering that, I'm sure they'll be cracking on with electrification works, and maybe even starting works for the new platform at Salford Crescent and turn-backs at Salford Central as there won't be anything running through those stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was wondering that, I'm sure they'll be cracking on with electrification works, and maybe even starting works for the new platform at Salford Crescent and turn-backs at Salford Central as there won't be anything running through those stations.

Ah, yes, it probably is the Salford Crescent work - forgot about that!

 

[OliverH68]

Anyone know when Scotrail or Avanti will upload their Dec 2023 plan to RTT? Whether its today or tomorrow or later this week etc

Most things are being uploaded over the course of the week so it's a case of just checking daily.