December 2023 Timetable Change

[Bantamzen]

I wonder whether these services will be reinstated for Bradford's stint as City of Culture in 2025?

If they aren't restored before that then I suspect not sadly.

 

[MikeWM]

As expected the Stansted Express is back to a 15 minute frequency all day 7 days a week with alternate trains only stopping at Harlow or Bishop Stortford. All trains serve Tottenham Hale of course.

Hurray! While it isn't exactly the main objective, this means we' re back to sensible connections between the Cambridge -> London services and the Stansted Express (at Stortford on the up, Harlow on the down), for those of us trying to minimise the time we spend on 720s

 

[chrisp37]

I really do hope that, eventually, even if not in the near future, the Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom and Waterloo to Dorking via Epsom services return to 2tph in the off-peak, rather than 1tph as they are at the moment. I had been used to 4tph to Waterloo from Worcester Park in the Monday to Saturday off-peak and 2tph to each of Guildford and Dorking for as long as I can remember. Losing that "turn up and go" frequency really sucks. There are quite a few journeys where you now have a full 30 minute wait at Clapham Junction for your connecting train, whereas previously that would have been a 15 minute wait. Surely that makes rail less viable for those journeys for people who have a choice.

The restoration of services elsewhere gives me hope that, one day, we could see something more akin to the pre-Covid timetable return.

In an attempt to find some positivity in the post-Covid timetable, we do now have a (very) slightly later last train from Waterloo to Worcester Park on Friday and Saturday nights (00:25 compared with 00:15 pre-Covid). That hardly makes up for losing the 00:15 on Monday to Thursday, though, when the last train of the day is now 23:42.

 

[Whiggism]

What are the main changes (if any) to Southern Metro services?

 

[JonathanH]

What are the main changes (if any) to Southern Metro services?

None that I can see.

 

[PGAT]

What are the main changes (if any) to Southern Metro services?

One extra Hemel Hempstead train (1010 from East Croydon and 1138 return, they no longer terminate at Clapham Junction on Tuesdays and Thursdays)

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I really do hope that, eventually, even if not in the near future, the Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom and Waterloo to Dorking via Epsom services return to 2tph in the off-peak, rather than 1tph as they are at the moment. I had been used to 4tph to Waterloo from Worcester Park in the Monday to Saturday off-peak and 2tph to each of Guildford and Dorking for as long as I can remember. Losing that "turn up and go" frequency really sucks. There are quite a few journeys where you now have a full 30 minute wait at Clapham Junction for your connecting train, whereas previously that would have been a 15 minute wait. Surely that makes rail less viable for those journeys for people who have a choice.

The restoration of services elsewhere gives me hope that, one day, we could see something more akin to the pre-Covid timetable return.

I fully agree, and the current 30 minute service is frequently full and standing - not helped by the loss of the majority of 10 car formations - but I fear it's not going to happen until the first full re-write after the 701s enter service, which would mean the December 2024 timetable at the earliest?

 

[PGAT]

I fully agree, and the current 30 minute service is frequently full and standing - not helped by the loss of the majority of 10 car formations - but I fear it's not going to happen until the first full re-write after the 701s enter service, which would mean the December 2024 timetable at the earliest?

Also doesn’t help that the Epsom route is the very last route to receive the 701s

 

[chrisp37]

I fully agree, and the current 30 minute service is frequently full and standing - not helped by the loss of the majority of 10 car formations - but I fear it's not going to happen until the first full re-write after the 701s enter service, which would mean the December 2024 timetable at the earliest?

If SWR said now that they intended to reinstate those services in December 2024, I could live with that (although I would prefer it to happen sooner). I just don't want to think that we'll never see the service return to that level, because that would sadden me!

 

[shakermaker_86]

I really do hope that, eventually, even if not in the near future, the Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom and Waterloo to Dorking via Epsom services return to 2tph in the off-peak, rather than 1tph as they are at the moment. I had been used to 4tph to Waterloo from Worcester Park in the Monday to Saturday off-peak and 2tph to each of Guildford and Dorking for as long as I can remember. Losing that "turn up and go" frequency really sucks. There are quite a few journeys where you now have a full 30 minute wait at Clapham Junction for your connecting train, whereas previously that would have been a 15 minute wait. Surely that makes rail less viable for those journeys for people who have a choice.

The restoration of services elsewhere gives me hope that, one day, we could see something more akin to the pre-Covid timetable return.

In an attempt to find some positivity in the post-Covid timetable, we do now have a (very) slightly later last train from Waterloo to Worcester Park on Friday and Saturday nights (00:25 compared with 00:15 pre-Covid). That hardly makes up for losing the 00:15 on Monday to Thursday, though, when the last train of the day is now 23:42.

Fully agree with all of this. It's baffling that Worcester Park being in Zone 4 and only 10 miles from central London only has 2tph now for most of the day, although slightly larger neighbouring New Malden has 8tph off peak. There are also some glaring omissions in the peak service where there's a half hour gap around 7-7.30 and 8.30-9. Ewell West also gets particularly busy, along with other stations on the route.

Also doesn’t help that the Epsom route is the very last route to receive the 701s

If the 701s do finally start entering service on other routes as hoped by the end of this year, would that potentially start freeing up some more 455s to beef up services again through the Epsom corridor in time for the May 24 timetable? 458s have also started to make an appearance on the suburban routes, could they be also be an option if more of them become available?

If SWR said now that they intended to reinstate those services in December 2024, I could live with that (although I would prefer it to happen sooner). I just don't want to think that we'll never see the service return to that level, because that would sadden me!

As a current Fetcham/Bookham resident which has suffered immeasurably from the cuts on these routes, if SWR gave a cast iron guarantee (bar any major unforeseen circumstances) that services would be reinstated in December 24, I could also live with that. But of course would likewise prefer to see it sooner give the option!

 

[London Trains]

I really do hope that, eventually, even if not in the near future, the Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom and Waterloo to Dorking via Epsom services return to 2tph in the off-peak, rather than 1tph as they are at the moment. I had been used to 4tph to Waterloo from Worcester Park in the Monday to Saturday off-peak and 2tph to each of Guildford and Dorking for as long as I can remember. Losing that "turn up and go" frequency really sucks. There are quite a few journeys where you now have a full 30 minute wait at Clapham Junction for your connecting train, whereas previously that would have been a 15 minute wait. Surely that makes rail less viable for those journeys for people who have a choice.

Completely agree these services need to return, service levels in the Sutton and Epsom areas (the boroughs) on both SWR and Southern have been totally destroyed since Covid. Both 4tph SWR via Epsom and the Southern fast services to Dorking/Horsham need to return.

If a compromise is needed to save units then terminate the Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom services at Effingham Junction - anyone travelling between Epsom and Guildford can change at Effingham Junction, and Horsley and Clandon don't need 4tph (in fact it is utterly ridiculous that these stations currently have 3tph but Worcester Park only has 2tph!) but Worcester Park, Stoneleigh, Ewell West, Epsom, Ashtead and Leatherhead all need 4tph and Dorking and Bookham need 2tph.

 

[TEW]

The previous post-Covid longer term plans for the Epsom line were a permanent 2tph cut, so 4tph peak and 2tph off peak. Even a return to a proper 4tph service for the whole of both peak periods would be something.

 

[shakermaker_86]

Completely agree these services need to return, service levels in the Sutton and Epsom areas (the boroughs) on both SWR and Southern have been totally destroyed since Covid. Both 4tph SWR via Epsom and the Southern fast services to Dorking/Horsham need to return.

If a compromise is needed to save units then terminate the Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom services at Effingham Junction - anyone travelling between Epsom and Guildford can change at Effingham Junction, and Horsley and Clandon don't need 4tph (in fact it is utterly ridiculous that these stations currently have 3tph but Worcester Park only has 2tph!) but Worcester Park, Stoneleigh, Ewell West, Epsom, Ashtead and Leatherhead all need 4tph and Dorking and Bookham need 2tph.

If SWR/Southern really can't/won't improves service levels atm and a compromise is needed, could something like this work in the meantime for the off-peak:

• The SWR 1tph to Dorking transferred to the Bookham line, either running to Guildford or both terminating at Effingham Junction as you suggested, bring this route back to 2tph.
• To compensate Dorking and Boxhill from losing the SWR service, have Southern extend the London Bridge to Epsom trains down to Dorking, giving it 4tph and giving Ashtead - Dorking direct access to London Bridge again.
• Run two additional shorter Epsom - Waterloo trains per hour, giving Epsom - Worcester Park the 4tph it needs
• Ensure there is sensible/short timings gaps between the different routes allowing for easy interchange at Epsom without a long wait e.g. Dorking passengers wanting to go to Waterloo etc.

Or do the reverse, and have both SWR services run to Dorking, and to give Bookham - Guildford a service, have Southern extend the London Bridge - Epsom route through Bookham to Guildford/Effingham as it used to run in the peaks pre-Covid. Although this option may be more difficult as Southern drivers would I think need to re-learn the route.

 

[JonathanH]

It's baffling that Worcester Park being in Zone 4 and only 10 miles from central London only has 2tph now for most of the day, although slightly larger neighbouring New Malden has 8tph off peak.

Is it? New Malden is at the meeting point of a number of lines. Worcester Park is not the only station in Zone 4 with a half hourly service by any means.

 

[shakermaker_86]

The previous post-Covid longer term plans for the Epsom line were a permanent 2tph cut, so 4tph peak and 2tph off peak. Even a return to a proper 4tph service for the whole of both peak periods would be something.

The additional evening trains to Dorking and Bookham/Guildford in the December 22 timetable, giving the route 4tph between 5:30-6:30 has been very welcome and greatly reduced overcrowding on these routes, although it should really be for a longer stretch e.g. 5:00-7:00pm from Waterloo.

Also in the morning peak Bookham only has 1tph, but at the same time period Dorking has 3tph to Waterloo within a 45 minute period between 7:00-7:45. (supplemented by its additional Southern trains to Victoria) Why? One of these trains should really run from Guildford to match the evening peak service pattern.

Is it? New Malden is at the meeting point of a number of lines. Worcester Park is not the only station in Zone 4 with a half hourly service by any means.

Yes it is. I lived there for over 30 years and commuted for about 10, even with 6tph at peak time pre-covid and at 4tph on Saturday's it was struggling (not to mention Stoneleigh and Ewell West as well). Of course usage numbers may be lower now, but 2tph is laughably not enough.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If SWR/Southern really can't/won't improves service levels atm and a compromise is needed, could something like this work in the meantime for the off-peak:

Welcome to the nationalised railway a lot of people wanted. They are both running the level of service DfT has asked them to run and unless lots of people lobby the DfT that I would suggest is unlikely to change.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Welcome to the nationalised railway a lot of people wanted. They are both running the level of service DfT has asked them to run and unless lots of people lobby the DfT that I would suggest is unlikely to change.

Not sure how that's relevant, if the services aren't "commercially viable" in terms of old-fashioned (ignore externalities) economic thinking.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Not sure how that's relevant, if the services aren't "commercially viable" in terms of old-fashioned (ignore externalities) economic thinking.

Under the nationalised setup it’s costs that are critical, under private companies there was more appetite for risk and reward and taking a punt on revenue.

 

[JonathanH]

Not sure how that's relevant, if the services aren't "commercially viable" in terms of old-fashioned (ignore externalities) economic thinking.

Isn't it a matter of seeing the taxpayer as an investor, in the absence of any other funding source?

The December 2023 timetable for somewhere has 2tph, and stakeholders say it needs 4tph. Someone has to pay for that uplift in service. The stakeholders will say that passenger growth will pay for the uplift, but the DfT and Treasury are being more cautious and not risking that they need to put more funding in to provide that service, if the passenger growth doesn't happen.

The point being made is that the nationalised funder is being more cautious than a commercial entity. I think you are suggesting that neither a commercial entity, nor the taxpayer will pay for an uplift in service that doesn't pay its way, which may well be true.

 

[IanXC]

But what if a train is longer - not enough to take up all of 11, but enough to be on A & B? Announcing “Platform 11A and B” would sound silly and just “Platform 11” would make the whole letters system pointless especially if something else was set at 11C and/or D.

If the train is long enough that it needs to sit across the mid platform signal, then it would be advertised as "Platform 11".

If it fits in either the east or west end part of a through platform (maximum 3-6 vehicles) then the letter is based on which direction it's going to depart. The front of the train will generally be stood at the signal for its departure, and so towards the relevant end for departure.

The rare instance of a train arriving and splitting is the only time you'll find more than one train on the same portion, and I don't think theres any instances of that being booked at the moment.

 

[xotGD]

If the train is long enough that it needs to sit across the mid platform signal, then it would be advertised as "Platform 11".

If it fits in either the east or west end part of a through platform (maximum 3-6 vehicles) then the letter is based on which direction it's going to depart. The front of the train will generally be stood at the signal for its departure, and so towards the relevant end for departure.

The rare instance of a train arriving and splitting is the only time you'll find more than one train on the same portion, and I don't think theres any instances of that being booked at the moment.

There's a splitter arrives into Platform 9C/D every weekday at around 16:40. I think one half goes to York and the other Carlisle.

 

[PGAT]

If SWR/Southern really can't/won't improves service levels atm and a compromise is needed, could something like this work in the meantime for the off-peak:

• The SWR 1tph to Dorking transferred to the Bookham line, either running to Guildford or both terminating at Effingham Junction as you suggested, bring this route back to 2tph.
• To compensate Dorking and Boxhill from losing the SWR service, have Southern extend the London Bridge to Epsom trains down to Dorking, giving it 4tph and giving Ashtead - Dorking direct access to London Bridge again.
• Run two additional shorter Epsom - Waterloo trains per hour, giving Epsom - Worcester Park the 4tph it needs
• Ensure there is sensible/short timings gaps between the different routes allowing for easy interchange at Epsom without a long wait e.g. Dorking passengers wanting to go to Waterloo etc.

Or do the reverse, and have both SWR services run to Dorking, and to give Bookham - Guildford a service, have Southern extend the London Bridge - Epsom route through Bookham to Guildford/Effingham as it used to run in the peaks pre-Covid. Although this option may be more difficult as Southern drivers would I think need to re-learn the route.

Cutting back from Guildford to Effingham would theoretically allow a new hourly Waterloo to Epsom (4 car) service to start. Which isn’t ideal, but it is a free improvement

 

[devon_belle]

Both 4tph SWR via Epsom and the Southern fast services to Dorking/Horsham need to return.

+1 to this, even if only in peak hours. The trains are getting rather busy, and I suspect more people will be attracted back onto them if there are more services.

Short of buying considerable amounts of shares in either company, I don't suppose there's any way passengers can drive such a change... It seems as though the timetable is trying to keep commuting levels down rather than entice people back onto the railways.

 

[PGAT]

+1 to this, even if only in peak hours.

They do exist in the peak, it’s still not enough

 

[chrisp37]

There was quite a bit of fuss when SWR proposed the cuts to the Guildford/Dorking via Epsom services in its December 2022 timetable consultation. The Epsom and Mole Valley Lib Dems launched a petition and, from what I could see, the stakeholders who were consulted were largely opposed to the cuts, e.g. Surrey County Council.

It's all gone quiet on that front now, though, it seems. The service reductions seem to have just crept in "by the backdoor" and nobody (that I can see) is voicing any strong opposition any more. I am not really sure who best to lobby or how, not that I think it's going to make much difference, but it's better than doing nothing. I have sent a few emails to SWR's customer services, complaining about the reduction in services and enquiring whether/when we might see pre-Covid levels return, but you can imagine the kind of "cut and paste" response you get to that (if you get a response at all).

I miss not having to time my departure from the office to catch one of the two hourly trains home of an evening. SWR's definition of "evening peak" on that line is far too restrictive; I often have to work quite late and accept that my evening commute is usually no longer "peak", but previously had 4tph until around 10pm. Now I basically have to leave the office at either quarter past the hour or quarter to the hour, and if something keeps me for a few minutes I might as well wait the rest of the half hour in the office, otherwise it's just a long wait at Waterloo.

I also very much miss the 4tph on Saturdays. I use the trains a lot for leisure travel and so many journeys now require a lengthy wait for a connecting train (usually Clapham Junction).

 

[shakermaker_86]

There was quite a bit of fuss when SWR proposed the cuts to the Guildford/Dorking via Epsom services in its December 2022 timetable consultation. The Epsom and Mole Valley Lib Dems launched a petition and, from what I could see, the stakeholders who were consulted were largely opposed to the cuts, e.g. Surrey County Council.

It's all gone quiet on that front now, though, it seems. The service reductions seem to have just crept in "by the backdoor" and nobody (that I can see) is voicing any strong opposition any more. I am not really sure who best to lobby or how, not that I think it's going to make much difference, but it's better than doing nothing. I have sent a few emails to SWR's customer services, complaining about the reduction in services and enquiring whether/when we might see pre-Covid levels return, but you can imagine the kind of "cut and paste" response you get to that (if you get a response at all).

I miss not having to time my departure from the office to catch one of the two hourly trains home of an evening. SWR's definition of "evening peak" on that line is far too restrictive; I often have to work quite late and accept that my evening commute is usually no longer "peak", but previously had 4tph until around 10pm. Now I basically have to leave the office at either quarter past the hour or quarter to the hour, and if something keeps me for a few minutes I might as well wait the rest of the half hour in the office, otherwise it's just a long wait at Waterloo.

I also very much miss the 4tph on Saturdays. I use the trains a lot for leisure travel and so many journeys now require a lengthy wait for a connecting train (usually Clapham Junction).

I remember that campaign getting a lot of coverage and signatures amongst Bookham/Fetcham/Leatherhead residents on the local Facebook and resident groups. I think to an extent it was successful in regards to the additional evening peak services added in December 22, which included semi fast services skipping Earlsfield, Raynes Park and Motspur Park. I think it may have gone a bit quiet because someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't SWR announce sometime last year that they were deferring the proposed consultation changes to a later point? If so and if they announce future plans to reintroduce the proposed changes in December 24 for example, perhaps this or similar campaigns will then pick up again?

On your point about how best to try and lobby for improved services, I have wondered this as well. I guess it needs a concerted effort from multiple users/stakeholders to at least try and get it on the SWR/DfT agenda. Perhaps in the run up to next year's election people in these constituencies need to try and get the prospective parliamentary candidates to push for service improvements should they win the seat(s) in order to attract peoples votes. There's also an upcoming SWR meet the manager on 4th October at Waterloo, perhaps if a good number of people turn up to this and try to lobby into seeing service improvements, it will give them something to take to the DfT to push for service improvements.

 

[chrisp37]

I don't think I will be able to make that session on 4 October; I can rarely get to Waterloo for that time after work. However, the SWR website gives an email address to use if you want to request an online appointment.

I've often wondered about speaking to people getting off at Worcester Park and asking whether they would be interested in some kind of collective lobbying. But I'm not really outgoing enough for that. I would have thought there would be a reasonable number of people who do feel quite strongly, though. Worcester Park is a very busy station, both peak and off-peak.

 

[devon_belle]

While my personal interest is in the Sutton & Mole Valley lines being improved, I'm happy to help contribute to any lobbying we can do for the SWR lines, as I have used those in the past. When I was using them from Bookham, it was flat 1 tph stoppers all day, so I'm pleased to hear it has improved at least in the peak. Without derailing this thread any further, it is a shame that changes are deferred another year. I believe that the railway has to entice commuters back onto trains with better services, rather than waiting for them to come back and then improving the service (which won't happen, with so much WFH being facilitated).

 

[Basil Jet]

Worcester Park is a very busy station, both peak and off-peak.

Its numbers seem remarkably similar to Palmers Green, which also has a half-hourly off-peak service since the pandemic.

 

[PGAT]

Its numbers seem remarkably similar to Palmers Green, which also has a half-hourly off-peak service since the pandemic.

The Hertford Loop is not a good benchmark. GTR have their own issues