December 2023 Timetable Change

[stan claire]

3tph on the Bolton to Preston line (2tph BPN - MIA and 1tph PRE - MCV) returning would be really good, seeing as Northern advertise it as their 3rd busiest commuter route... especially the line could benefit from the increased capacity and Victoria station is much closer to the Arndale centre which is a popular destination for people travelling into Manchester but Piccadilly is nowhere near it

 

[johntea]

I have seen a TPE 802 weekly parked up at Castleford so can only assume at this point they are testing/training the route ready for December

 

[IanXC]

Don’t quote me (!) but I think that on the through lines at Leeds, trains are assumed to straddle adjacent sub-platforms. Something on 12C will extend back to 12D, there won’t be anything on 12B but there might be on 12A. I never know if the platform signs line up with the front of the train or the middle. Drivers don’t know either - they’re looking for the signals. So near enough is good enough, depending on the length of the train and what else is happening.

As I understand it, for the bay platforms the letters are just intended to indicate which train on the platform, so A is always at the West end, then B, then C, the D on the buffers. Which letter is used is selected to try to line up with the signed letters. Interestingly for platform 7, B is at the East end and A is towards the buffer end.

For the through platforms, each operational section of platform has at least 2 letters, taking platform 11 as an example, the west end portion is 11A/11B and the east end portion 11C/11D. The intention I believe is that 11A and 11C would indicate a train departing West, and 11B and 11D would indicate a train departing East.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

As I understand it, for the bay platforms the letters are just intended to indicate which train on the platform, so A is always at the West end, then B, then C, the D on the buffers. Which letter is used is selected to try to line up with the signed letters. Interestingly for platform 7, B is at the East end and A is towards the buffer end.

For the through platforms, each operational section of platform has at least 2 letters, taking platform 11 as an example, the west end portion is 11A/11B and the east end portion 11C/11D. The intention I believe is that 11A and 11C would indicate a train departing West, and 11B and 11D would indicate a train departing East.

But what if a train is longer - not enough to take up all of 11, but enough to be on A & B? Announcing “Platform 11A and B” would sound silly and just “Platform 11” would make the whole letters system pointless especially if something else was set at 11C and/or D.

 

[JonathanH]

3tph on the Bolton to Preston line (2tph BPN - MIA and 1tph PRE - MCV) returning would be really good, seeing as Northern advertise it as their 3rd busiest commuter route

The Preston to Manchester Victoria service was removed as part of the changes needed for more reliability in Manchester, and so it won't be returning.

The Cumbria to Manchester Airport service is now the third Northern train on the Preston to Bolton corridor, and that pattern continues in December.

 

[CAF397]

I have seen a TPE 802 weekly parked up at Castleford so can only assume at this point they are testing/training the route ready for December

Having looked at the paths, it comes from Heaton. I'm assuming this is a route learning train for Newcastle crews for the route via Castleford from York to Leeds.

The rumoured extension of the Manchester-Huddersfield stopper to Wakefield/Castleford will be on 185s and can only be crewed by York or Manchester drivers. Newcastle drivers will not be signing Wakefield.

 

[nw1]

It's a great idea - saw the draft timetable and I hope it gets approval. Only blight was big gap in late night service from Guildford to Redhill/Gatwick.

Mind you is it such a good idea for end-to-end passengers? Presumably if you were travelling from Reading (or points north and west thereof) to Gatwick you wouldn't want your service calling at minor shacks.

Separating the service out into one fast and one stopper (which was always the classic pattern, back to at least 1982), with peak Reading-Guildford short workings, means you have two separate services, serving two different functions.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Mind you is it such a good idea for end-to-end passengers? Presumably if you were travelling from Reading (or points north and west thereof) to Gatwick you wouldn't want your service calling at minor shacks.

Separating the service out into one fast and one stopper (which was always the classic pattern, back to at least 1982) means you have two separate services, serving two different functions.

Most people arriving at Gatwick Airport just want to get home, the half-hourly service should in theory speed that up as the generalised journey time is improved. No more waiting an hour for the next train towards Reading.

Generalised journey time takes into account both frequency and journey time. Overall it will show as an improvement which is it.

 

[stan claire]

1M20 Glasgow to Crewe in the late evening is currently a 221 path, but from December it's showing as a 390 path. Is this the end of voyager paths on the northern section of the WCML north?

 

[The Planner]

1M20 Glasgow to Crewe in the late evening is currently a 221 path, but from December it's showing as a 390 path. Is this the end of voyager paths on the northern section of the WCML north?

As they start handing them back, yes.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Mind you is it such a good idea for end-to-end passengers? Presumably if you were travelling from Reading (or points north and west thereof) to Gatwick you wouldn't want your service calling at minor shacks.

Separating the service out into one fast and one stopper (which was always the classic pattern, back to at least 1982), with peak Reading-Guildford short workings, means you have two separate services, serving two different functions.

But that timetable only provided a stopping service between Guildford and Redhill every 3 hours (some of which were through workings to Tonbridge.) In an ideal world you’d have 3tph between Reading and Guildford with 2tph east thereof both running to Gatwick and the local Blackwater Valley flows covered by the 3rd train as a short working. But with resources and funding only available for 2tph overall, this December’s plan is the better option.

 

[PGAT]

Mind you is it such a good idea for end-to-end passengers? Presumably if you were travelling from Reading (or points north and west thereof) to Gatwick you wouldn't want your service calling at minor shacks.

Separating the service out into one fast and one stopper (which was always the classic pattern, back to at least 1982), with peak Reading-Guildford short workings, means you have two separate services, serving two different functions.

While a couple of minutes may be lost by calling at “minor shacks” the timetable is now more clock-face and the frequency is doubled so overall journey times WILL be faster

 

[nw1]

But that timetable only provided a stopping service between Guildford and Redhill every 3 hours (some of which were through workings to Tonbridge.)

Not always, in the 80s there was a stopping service east of Guildford every hour for instance, but I take your point below.

In an ideal world you’d have 3tph between Reading and Guildford with 2tph east thereof both running to Gatwick and the local Blackwater Valley flows covered by the 3rd train as a short working. But with resources and funding only available for 2tph overall, this December’s plan is the better option.

 

[CTS1990]

Are there likely to be any major changes to LNER's timetable in December? If so, could it spell the end for the 225s? I assume not, as there would be a stock shortage...so may have answered my own question!

 

[hexagon789]

Are there likely to be any major changes to LNER's timetable in December? If so, could it spell the end for the 225s? I assume not, as there would be a stock shortage...so may have answered my own question!

As reported upthread, they were the first TOC to have their timetable uploaded, so it was displaying in RTT a while ago for instance.

There are basically no changes. The big rewrite is due next December (2024), I understand.

 

[Minstral25]

Mind you is it such a good idea for end-to-end passengers? Presumably if you were travelling from Reading (or points north and west thereof) to Gatwick you wouldn't want your service calling at minor shacks.

Separating the service out into one fast and one stopper (which was always the classic pattern, back to at least 1982), with peak Reading-Guildford short workings, means you have two separate services, serving two different functions.

Again awaiting publishing - but the timetable I saw meant 2 trains per hour doing the journey in around 88/90 minutes - currently it is 1 per hour in around 82/4, so at worst an 8 minute penalty in time for double the frequency. Most passengers getting off an aeroplane cannot arrive at the station at a fixed time, so having double the service will be of better benefit with less waiting likely than speed of train once they are on it.

Local passengers are currently receiving a very uneven service, especially at major stations like Guildford, Wokingham, Dorking and Reigate but also the small stations. Having a clockface based on even half hourly/ hourly times mean people will be able to turn up and get a train reliably. This will increase local traffic and be better than 1982, especially between Guildford and Redhill.

 

[YorksLad12]

As I understand it, for the bay platforms the letters are just intended to indicate which train on the platform, so A is always at the West end, then B, then C, the D on the buffers. Which letter is used is selected to try to line up with the signed letters. Interestingly for platform 7, B is at the East end and A is towards the buffer end.

For the through platforms, each operational section of platform has at least 2 letters, taking platform 11 as an example, the west end portion is 11A/11B and the east end portion 11C/11D. The intention I believe is that 11A and 11C would indicate a train departing West, and 11B and 11D would indicate a train departing East.

I hadn't spotted that about P7 (must check tomorrow, if I remember - my train back should arrive on P8). I'd always thought of it as "b" for "buffers", so you come to the "B" platform first. Except on P0, P1, P6 (and I think a few other low-numbered ones - not P3) where you come to "C" first. There are no "D"s on the bays... that would be some bay

But what if a train is longer - not enough to take up all of 11, but enough to be on A & B? Announcing “Platform 11A and B” would sound silly and just “Platform 11” would make the whole letters system pointless especially if something else was set at 11C and/or D.

From memory, it would be announced at "Platform 11", probably because it would be the only train on there. If my 0811 XC to Sheffield is a double set, it's P15; if a single set it's P15; the 0911 HST set leaves from P12 (and sits more or less in the middle, spanning 12A (where the signal is) to 12C). The 1808 is also an HST and spans 8B to 8D, following @IanXC's direction-of-departure principle above.

(With apologies for the off-topicness.)

 

[RollingStock19]

Lumo, CrossCountry and Northern seem to be in too.

 

[PGAT]

So now we're only waiting on c2c, GWR, TPE, Heathrow Express and Island Line

 

[OliverH68]

c2c now up

 

[Kite159]

Reading - Gatwick going up to 2tph is good news. Considering in some hours the connection to the Redhill - Reading stopper at Redhill is either from the Gatwick - Reading train or a Three Bridges - Bedford service which departs Gatwick a minute or so after the GWR service

 

[snookertam]

I really can't fathom what ScotRail are thinking by adding in four or five extra stops to every other Glasgow to Aberdeen service, in order to save the grand total of one DMU between Dundee and Arbroath. You could easily operate a shuttle with one unit if the third platform at Arbroath was reinstated (journey time is 24 minutes or thereabouts), or better still tack the shuttle on to the Glasgow to Dundee semi-fast as was originally intended.

The Dundee/Arbroath services should’ve been done away with a while back. Complete white elephant and a waste of scares resources.

 

[wls1]

couple of Leigh-On-Sea starter trains returning to the timetable in the morning, 0721 and 0737. Should add much needed capacity on the mainline with some services cutting out Laindon as a result of that. Not many other changes, pretty much none in the PM peak

 

[mikeg]

Will be interested to see TPE's timetables for the North Transpennine route. Any idea when they're out?

On a side note, I'm disappointed to see that LNER, Lumo and Avanti have continued with the reservations compulsory nonsense. I thought the excuse was the flag couldn't easily be removed without redoing the timetable? So what's their excuse this time?

 

[Tayway]

The Dundee/Arbroath services should’ve been done away with a while back. Complete white elephant and a waste of scares resources.

They're actually fairly busy at peak times and on weekend evenings in my experience, but the Angus Coast stations really should be served as an extension of the Edinburgh or Glasgow semi-fast – two units for a 25 minute journey is obviously less than ideal, and only required because they have to use the reversing sidings at both ends.

Alternatively it could be combined with the Montrose to Aberdeen stopper – you could easily have an hourly service from Dundee to Aberdeen with just the four units used to operate both shuttles at present, and would allow more direct journey opportunities for the smaller stations without slowing down the expresses. There actually seems to be a once-daily version of this starting in December: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W57497/2023-12-18/detailed

 

[Watershed]

Will be interested to see TPE's timetables for the North Transpennine route. Any idea when they're out?

On a side note, I'm disappointed to see that LNER, Lumo and Avanti have continued with the reservations compulsory nonsense. I thought the excuse was the flag couldn't easily be removed without redoing the timetable? So what's their excuse this time?

It can be added and removed very easily in the scheme of things. It's just that this would require them to see things from a customer-centric perspective - something that the rail industry seems fundamentally unwilling and incapable of doing.

 

[FenMan]

Local passengers are currently receiving a very uneven service, especially at major stations like Guildford, Wokingham, Dorking and Reigate but also the small stations. Having a clockface based on even half hourly/ hourly times mean people will be able to turn up and get a train reliably. This will increase local traffic and be better than 1982, especially between Guildford and Redhill.

Not to mention Crowthorne, Sandhurst, Farnborough North and Ash getting a 1tph direct service to Gatwick (assuming Blackwater and North Camp continue to be 2tph). Blackwater, Farnborough North and North Camp are in the Farnborough/Aldershot Built-Up Area, population 253,000 in 2011, the biggest conurbation by far on the route excepting the Reading/Wokingham Built-Up Area, population 318,000 in 2011.

For anyone not familiar with the area, who may be thinking Farnborough surely is the biggest town yet only gets 1tph, the answer is Farnborough North is on the far eastern fringe of the town, has very poor road access and a handful of parking spaces, with no prospect of any improvement. Its (relatively high) usage stats reflect the large numbers of students attending two nearby colleges during term time.

Blackwater and North Camp both have excellent road access and plentiful parking, The former is the railhead for Blackwater, a large chunk of Camberley, Yateley, College Town and the actual north part of Farnborough. The latter is the railhead for North Camp, south Farnborough and Ash Vale.

 

[sammyg901]

The early Saturday morning Chiltern services from Banbury and High Wycombe to Birmingham Moor St appear to have gone.
From Banbury this makes the first northbound train the 0658 XC instead of the 0600 Chiltern.

Looks a bit weird, puts their first train into Birmingham past 9am which on a Saturday is rather late. Also means they've got to have more units / drivers over night up north to operate the southbound services which haven't been reduced.

That said I can't imagine the pre-7.30am demand for northbound services from south of Banbury or Banbury - Birmingham arriving before 8am is particularly high (LM has an 0644 service from Leamington Spa) so maybe it is true!

 

[Bantamzen]

No reinstatement of the missing Bradford - Skipton and Bradford - Ilkley services either.

I think we can safely wave goodbye to them for good. Worse still with the separation of the triangle diagrams delays and cancellations (which have definitely been creeping back in recently) will be more baked into the sections they occur on, rather than being spread out. And with only 1tph in the off-peaks for the Bradford services, this is just going to further erode local faith in public transport. Meanwhile the traffic gets progressively worse...

 

[D6130]

I think we can safely wave goodbye to them for good. Worse still with the separation of the triangle diagrams delays and cancellations (which have definitely been creeping back in recently) will be more baked into the sections they occur on, rather than being spread out. And with only 1tph in the off-peaks for the Bradford services, this is just going to further erode local faith in public transport. Meanwhile the traffic gets progressively worse...

I wonder whether these services will be reinstated for Bradford's stint as City of Culture in 2025?