Lines where semaphore signals are still used

[vic-rijrode]

Does it actually clear the route through, or does it just allow a train to pull forward to a 'STOP AND OBTAIN TOKEN' board?

Probably what you say, although the train pulls forward completely on to the Network Rail line before stopping presumably for the token.

 

[John Webb]

Probably what you say, although the train pulls forward completely on to the Network Rail line before stopping presumably for the token.

There is a ground frame next to the 'Main' line to Whitby controlling the connection to/from the NYMR. A token for the section between Glaisdale and Whitby is released from a token machine in a location cabinet on the NYMR platform in co-operation with the controlling signaller at Nunthorpe. It is then used to unlock the ground frame to allow the NYMR train to go onto the Main line. I assume the appropriate signal on the gantry is released mechanically or electrically so it can then be cleared. Once the NYMR train is on the Main line, the ground frame is reset to allow through running on the Main line and the token is taken to the loco, hence the pause. The train goes on to Whitby where the NYMR train can return the token to a machine at Whitby to allow the Northern Railway trains from Middlesbrough to run as usual. The process is reversed when the NYMR returns from Whitby.

 

[Railsigns]

although the train pulls forward completely on to the Network Rail line before stopping presumably for the token.

If that's what actually happens, then I think I'll avoid taking the train to Whitby again.

 

[341o2]

Has Marchwood on the Fawley branch already been mentioned, which also has a set of manual crossing gates?

 

[vic-rijrode]

If that's what actually happens, then I think I'll avoid taking the train to Whitby again.

I bow to the obviously much superior and detailed knowledge of John Webb who does state that the train waits for the token on the Network Rail line after it is released in cooperation with the signaller at Nunthorpe. I quote "Once the NYMR train is on the Main line, the ground frame is reset to allow through running on the Main line and the token is taken to the loco, hence the pause.". So from his explanation, I suggest that the manoeuvre is not quite so dangerous as perhaps I made out!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Aug 2023 ==

There is a ground frame next to the 'Main' line to Whitby controlling the connection to/from the NYMR. A token for the section between Glaisdale and Whitby is released from a token machine in a location cabinet on the NYMR platform in co-operation with the controlling signaller at Nunthorpe. It is then used to unlock the ground frame to allow the NYMR train to go onto the Main line. I assume the appropriate signal on the gantry is released mechanically or electrically so it can then be cleared. Once the NYMR train is on the Main line, the ground frame is reset to allow through running on the Main line and the token is taken to the loco, hence the pause. The train goes on to Whitby where the NYMR train can return the token to a machine at Whitby to allow the Northern Railway trains from Middlesbrough to run as usual. The process is reversed when the NYMR returns from Whitby.

Excellent, thank you very much.

 

[Railsigns]

I bow to the obviously much superior and detailed knowledge of John Webb who does state that the train waits for the token on the Network Rail line after it is released in cooperation with the signaller at Nunthorpe. I quote "Once the NYMR train is on the Main line, the ground frame is reset to allow through running on the Main line and the token is taken to the loco, hence the pause.". So from his explanation, I suggest that the manoeuvre is not quite so dangerous as perhaps I made out!

The crucial point is that the driver obtains the token before their train occupies the Network Rail single line. The token is the authority to occupy the single line, and holding it is an assurance that no other train is already in that section.

 

[Deepgreen]

They are semaphores by the definition that they move to indicate status, unlike colour-light signals. However, true semaphore is by flags displayed at different angles, so only signal arms properly fit that definition.

I didn’t realise disc signals weren’t considered semaphores, you live and learn. (I would certainly argue that they fit the wider definition of semaphore but accept that in railway terms they are separate.)

 

[Gloster]

Entering onto a single line without having obtained a token, except in some very limited and specific circumstances (which don’t apply here), was regarded as such a serious failing that it was just about the only offence for which dismissal was actually mentioned: ‘A driver will render himself liable to dismissal if he leaves…without the token’ (in the General Appendix, I think). If it is necessary for the token to be used for opening a ground frame or similar, then the driver may hand it to the appropriate person, but otherwise it remains with him. Anybody who has ever worked as a driver, guard, signalman or S&T lineman on a single line understands the need for strict adherence to the rules in this area.

 

[zwk500]

I bow to the obviously much superior and detailed knowledge of John Webb who does state that the train waits for the token on the Network Rail line after it is released in cooperation with the signaller at Nunthorpe. I quote "Once the NYMR train is on the Main line, the ground frame is reset to allow through running on the Main line and the token is taken to the loco, hence the pause.". So from his explanation, I suggest that the manoeuvre is not quite so dangerous as perhaps I made out!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Aug 2023 ==


Excellent, thank you very much.

on this website there is a video showing a scheme plan: https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/videoPages/Grosmont.php

 

[Annetts key]

On a line protected by a token system, a driver of a train is only permitted to enter or be on that section of line if they are in possession of the token. The only exceptions are as said above, for the purpose of releasing/unlocking a ground frame. Or if shown the token and having received appropriate instructions under emergency working of a single line (part of the modern pilot working arrangements). There is also an exception if it’s a train that has to enter a token section to assist a failed train.

Of course, part of the same single line may be protected by other means and may overlap with a section protected by the token section. But this is unusual in a mechanical signalled area.

 

[RPI]

Most of the Cornish mainline between Liskeard and St Erth is still semaphores, all but Liskeard and St Erth are due to be replaced over the next year or so though.

Also St Blazey and Goonbarrow Junction on the Newquay branch still have them.

 

[Annetts key]

Most of the Cornish mainline between Liskeard and St Erth is still semaphores, all but Liskeard and St Erth are due to be replaced over the next year or so though.

Also St Blazey and Goonbarrow Junction on the Newquay branch still have them.

Some of the resignalling in that part of the South West is being postponed to reduce Network Rails costs. So the dates of the mechanical signals and signal boxes being taken out of use may slip.

 

[RPI]

Some of the resignalling in that part of the South West is being postponed to reduce Network Rails costs. So the dates of the mechanical signals and signal boxes being taken out of use may slip.

I had heard rumours of a delay

 

[Sun Chariot]

Has Marchwood on the Fawley branch already been mentioned, which also has a set of manual crossing gates?

I'm hoping those remain in situ long enough for me to photograph a 701 consist move. I have been thwarted by the weather on prior occasions; and the only sunny day move, I was photographing it near Havant instead.

 

[Stewart2887]

And, of which semaphores, are they lower quadrant? Burry Port? Cornwall?

 

[Gloster]

And, of which semaphores, are they lower quadrant? Burry Port? Cornwall?

Plus Yeovil Pen Mill, Worcester area and parts of the North & West, I think.

 

[Ashley Hill]

And, of which semaphores, are they lower quadrant? Burry Port? Cornwall?

Both lower quadrant.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2023 ==

Most of the Cornish mainline between Liskeard and St Erth is still semaphores, all but Liskeard and St Erth are due to be replaced over the next year or so though

Have not heard of any closure plans for Goonbarrow,St Blazey,Roskear or Penzance boxes yet.

 

[RPI]

Both lower quadrant.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2023 ==


Have not heard of any closure plans for Goonbarrow,St Blazey,Roskear or Penzance boxes yet.

Think my post wasn't clear, I meant the mainline ones were being replaced, then added about St Blazey and Goonbarrow (which aren't going yet), goonbarrow is getting a panel i think to control the new passing loop at Goss Moor, or did I imagine that?

 

[JKF]

Will any semaphores survive up to the point where all signals are rendered obsolete by in-cab signalling? Or is that decades away?

 

[zwk500]

Will any semaphores survive up to the point where all signals are rendered obsolete by in-cab signalling? Or is that decades away?

Yes, and yes.

 

[robert thomas]

Plus Yeovil Pen Mill, Worcester area and parts of the North & West, I think.

and Neath N&B Junction

 

[adam_haddad40]

Have all the semaphore signals on the Durham Coast line been removed yet?

 

[Snow1964]

Dunblane has a couple but their days are numbered.

Network Rail has even included a photo of one in the distance on this article about new crossovers being installed

Final phase of railway enhancement work begins at Dunblane station

Network Rail is carrying out the final phase of enhancement works at Dunblane station to help improve service reliability on Scotland’s Railway.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

 

[175001]

Looks like semaphore days between Wigan and Parbold are numbered. AWS magnets have appeared in the 4ft.

 

[Elecman]

Looks like semaphore days between Wigan and Parbold are numbered. AWS magnets have appeared in the 4ft.

You can have AWS on Semaphore signalled lines

 

[175001]

The compound by Bescar Lane, wiring along the track, new signal piling round Pool Hey crossing, earthworka at Chapel Lane block crossing, and troughing along the line would suggest otherwise

 

[Elecman]

The compound by Bescar Lane, wiring along the track, new signal piling round Pool Hey crossing, earthworka at Chapel Lane block crossing, and troughing along the line would suggest otherwise

That is for the level crossing upgrades

 

[Rescars]

On a line protected by a token system, a driver of a train is only permitted to enter or be on that section of line if they are in possession of the token. The only exceptions are as said above, for the purpose of releasing/unlocking a ground frame. Or if shown the token and having received appropriate instructions under emergency working of a single line (part of the modern pilot working arrangements). There is also an exception if it’s a train that has to enter a token section to assist a failed train.

Of course, part of the same single line may be protected by other means and may overlap with a section protected by the token section. But this is unusual in a mechanical signalled area.

And the right token too - as demonstrated by the awful lesson of Abermule.

 

[Marton]

Have all the semaphore signals on the Durham Coast line been removed yet?

Yes

 

[MP33]

O S Nock in a book about Rail Disasters stated that when working for Westinghouse they had to make the token machines vandal proof. The reason was that a station master in Africa who had an issue that his train had not got the single line, smashed open the machine to get a token leading to a serious head on collision.