Heritage railway financial problems.

[YorkshireBear]

The diesel market is actually very small, a lot of the diesel enthusiasts tour the country attending the galas making it look like there's more people than there actually is. Secondary spend is notoriously low. Catering is flasks and Tesco value meals.

I haven't tended to find that with catering spend huge for these events compared to steam events. Might be a specific situation of real ale pumps on the bar though!

 

[AndrewE]

I haven't tended to find that with catering spend huge for these events compared to steam events. Might be a specific situation of real ale pumps on the bar though!

I'm surprised to read that, I would have thought that the real ale drinkers would be the steam enthusiasts, and the diesel-followers a younger demographic drinking lager, plus keg "craft beers" etc!

 

[Iskra]

I'm surprised to read that, I would have thought that the real ale drinkers would be the steam enthusiasts, and the diesel-followers a younger demographic drinking lager, plus keg "craft beers" etc!

A lot of railways do Diesel & Ale events, so clearly they think that’s a market that works and it does look to from my observations. I think steam seems to appeal to families, older people that remember them from their youth, people just wanting a day out and casual enthusiasts. Diesel meanwhile appeals to the more hardcore enthusiasts. Of course, offering a bit of both would seem to be a winning recipe and there’s cross-over between markets too.

Going back to Pacers- I wouldn’t go out of my way to travel on one on a Heritage Line, but where they are useful is providing a cheap second train on a line in marginal season. If this is in addition to steam, you’ve already pleased that market and it makes the line more useful for everyone by improving the frequency so everyone wins. The KWVR do this well.

 

[paul1609]

I haven't tended to find that with catering spend huge for these events compared to steam events. Might be a specific situation of real ale pumps on the bar though!

Indeed but those events are carefully arranged so there are no more than 1 or 2 on the same weekend. The beer sales pay for the visiting locos transport if youre lucky. They are increasingly only held on railways with large home diesel fleets.

It is notoriously difficult to promote product b well when you spend 95%+ of your time, effort and money promoting product a.

The meat marketing board would have a tricky time promoting soya sausages for example

It's more difficult than that. On days that your selling soya sausages you have to take all your meat sausages out of the shop. You then have to spend all your time persuading people that turned up for meat sausages that they really want soya sausages. Some buy soya sausages but many go away and buy their sausages elsewhere or buy hamburgers. On days you are back selling the meat sausages you have to hope that the disappointed customer turns up again but they may stay away just in case you are only selling soya.

 

[Titfield]

Indeed but those events are carefully arranged so there are no more than 1 or 2 on the same weekend. The beer sales pay for the visiting locos transport if youre lucky. They are increasingly only held on railways with large home diesel fleets.


It's more difficult than that. On days that your selling soya sausages you have to take all your meat sausages out of the shop. You then have to spend all your time persuading people that turned up for meat sausages that they really want soya sausages. Some buy soya sausages but many go away and buy their sausages elsewhere or buy hamburgers. On days you are back selling the meat sausages you have to hope that the disappointed customer turns up again but they may stay away just in case you are only selling soya.

Thanks Paul.

Yes the cost of transportation of guest locomotives has become a considerable challenge for diesel gala organisers. I think to some extent organisers have created a problem for themselves by promising bigger and better each year resulting in a form of "arms race". Eventually you have to call a halt. There is of course some form of tipping point where bigger does not generate any additional patronage just additional cost.

As regards the sausages even the best communication in the world doesnt prevent disappointment. Whilst diesel galas give a great deal of satisfaction to diesel enthusiasts but I wonder if in the long term they produce sufficient net benefit to justify their operation at some heritage railways.

 

[31160]

There is definitely an argument to be made that this years SVR gala had too many visitors,to the point that some of the interesting locos didn't get much of a run out

 

[Titfield]

There is definitely an argument to be made that this years SVR gala had too many visitors,to the point that some of the interesting locos didn't get much of a run out

Yes exactly and that causes dissatisfaction amongst diesel enthusiasts who may not be able to ride behind all the locomotives they wish. Sometimes some locos appear on one day only "compelling" enthusiasts to visit on multiple days with its attendant additional costs.

 

[30907]

I'm surprised to read that, I would have thought that the real ale drinkers would be the steam enthusiasts, and the diesel-followers a younger demographic drinking lager, plus keg "craft beers" etc!

The KWVR had one yesterday (fairly low-key, one diesel one steam) - the bar on the diesel seemed considerably busier than the one on the steam set. The same was true IIRC the previous Saturday.

 

[Ken H]

Back to catering
I have found many preserved railways have quite nice catering. They usually have parking so ideal to pop in for tea and cake, or even a lunchtime butty. I do that but ride the trains rarely. Its an area where they could encourage footfall.
Welshpool and Llanfair was one we visited often. As was the Langollen line somewhere west of Llangollen. Tan-y-Bwlch on the Ffestiniog was OK too.
Remember, people like to eat outside on nice days

 

[12C]

The KWVR had one yesterday (fairly low-key, one diesel one steam) - the bar on the diesel seemed considerably busier than the one on the steam set. The same was true IIRC the previous Saturday.

Diesel definitely does attract the real ale crowd, and diesel galas often involve a fair amount of alcohol being supped, to the point some punters can often become quite annoying later in the day. I’ve noticed this is much less so at steam galas, which seem to attract a more sober clientele who often are more happy to sit with a brew.

 

[70014IronDuke]

It would be interesting to see a 'normals' opinion poll on whether they need to see steam to make them turn up and pay money.

I am reading this very late, but yes, this is one obvious question.

Personally, I believe the 'attraction package' of steam is what is always has been - it's the nearest machine created to an animal - it breathes, the individual nearby can smell, hear and almost feel the beast, and the circling-reciprocal motion movements, plus the human element being somewhat accessible to the eye on the footplate - all these aspects give a broad, tangible sense of wonderment

Diesels have some of this (mainly in the roar when accelerating under load), but the rest of the package is largely missing.

I'm sure there will be some 'normals' who find diesels more interesting than steam, but I believe they are fewer, and as for kids, I'm sure they are far, far fewer.

 

[12C]

One option which I’ve noticed seems to be happening on some lines is for a train to be ‘top and tailed’ with a steam loco and a diesel. It often sounds like the diesel is doing most of the work and the steam loco is there mainly for appearance, apart from a bit of token chuffing out of stations. I don’t think most of the public really notice this, or care. This might be a good compromise to reduce coal consumption, the only downside being two crews are required of course.

 

[Iskra]

One option which I’ve noticed seems to be happening on some lines is for a train to be ‘top and tailed’ with a steam loco and a diesel. It often sounds like the diesel is doing most of the work and the steam loco is there mainly for appearance, apart from a bit of token chuffing out of stations. I don’t think most of the public really notice this, or care. This might be a good compromise to reduce coal consumption, the only downside being two crews are required of course.

I think that’s usually down to limited run-around capabilities or to speed up turn around times. It also has the side-benefit of appealing to two different markets, especially on lines that can only accommodate one train at a time.

 

[paul1609]

One option which I’ve noticed seems to be happening on some lines is for a train to be ‘top and tailed’ with a steam loco and a diesel. It often sounds like the diesel is doing most of the work and the steam loco is there mainly for appearance, apart from a bit of token chuffing out of stations. I don’t think most of the public really notice this, or care. This might be a good compromise to reduce coal consumption, the only downside being two crews are required of course.

It's usually down to a lack of run round facilities (spa valley at Eridge) or trains too long for the run round facilities or the steam engine can't manage the train on its own. The coal you save from having a diesel assisting is pretty marginal and it's quite likely the cost of running the diesel will exceed the money saved.

 

[stuu]

I am reading this very late, but yes, this is one obvious question.

Personally, I believe the 'attraction package' of steam is what is always has been - it's the nearest machine created to an animal - it breathes, the individual nearby can smell, hear and almost feel the beast, and the circling-reciprocal motion movements, plus the human element being somewhat accessible to the eye on the footplate - all these aspects give a broad, tangible sense of wonderment

Diesels have some of this (mainly in the roar when accelerating under load), but the rest of the package is largely missing.

I'm sure there will be some 'normals' who find diesels more interesting than steam, but I believe they are fewer, and as for kids, I'm sure they are far, far fewer.

The fundamental point is surely that steam is different to what you see every day. A diesel is still a diesel, for anyone who isn't interested in industrial history

You could do something quite simple like printing some flyers with a steam loco, and a some with a diesel, and seeing which were taken first

 

[paul1609]

If you've seen the latest Mission Impossible film you'd know- Diesels are the worst kind of person.

 

[30907]

The fundamental point is surely that steam is different to what you see every day. A diesel is still a diesel, for anyone who isn't interested in industrial history.

Except that you don't see diesel-hauled passenger trains every day, unless you live on the Marches line or spot a TPE class 68 - or the sleepers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's usually down to a lack of run round facilities (spa valley at Eridge) or trains too long for the run round facilities or the steam engine can't manage the train on its own. The coal you save from having a diesel assisting is pretty marginal and it's quite likely the cost of running the diesel will exceed the money saved.

Had a ride on the Spa Valley earlier (having mentioned on another thread that I was in Southernland) and while it was a top and tail steam and diesel the steam loco sounded like it was doing most of the work.

With regard to the thread title they seemed rather reluctant to actually take any money off me, the booking clerk protesting that she had already cashed up and was really trying to turn me away until the buffet coach guy came over and said he'd put it through his till. You'd think they would need any money they could get!

 

[James H]

they seemed rather reluctant to actually take any money off me

This chimes with my experience on another heritage railway a few weeks ago. Whilst I'm all for an easygoing attitude, given the challenges the sector is facing it was actually disappointing that the volunteers on the front line weren't a bit sharper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This chimes with my experience on another heritage railway a few weeks ago. Whilst I'm all for an easygoing attitude, given the challenges the sector is facing it was actually disappointing that the volunteers on the front line weren't a bit sharper.

What grated a bit about this was that it was a bit unfriendly - I would have been fine with "pay the guard" or "when you get home donate us the fare online" but she really was trying very hard (without being actually rude) to get me to go away entirely. Bizarre.

Had it not been an hour until the next Southern, for which I had no intention of sitting around, the sale may well have been lost, and future sales too.

 

[eldomtom2]

Except that you don't see diesel-hauled passenger trains every day, unless you live on the Marches line or spot a TPE class 68 - or the sleepers.

I don't think the general public makes much of a distinction between loco-hauled and MU trains. Certainly nowhere near the distinction between steam and diesel.

 

[Calthrop]

With regard to the thread title they seemed rather reluctant to actually take any money off me, the booking clerk protesting that she had already cashed up and was really trying to turn me away until the buffet coach guy came over and said he'd put it through his till. You'd think they would need any money they could get!

This chimes with my experience on another heritage railway a few weeks ago. Whilst I'm all for an easygoing attitude, given the challenges the sector is facing it was actually disappointing that the volunteers on the front line weren't a bit sharper.

What grated a bit about this was that it was a bit unfriendly - I would have been fine with "pay the guard" or "when you get home donate us the fare online" but she really was trying very hard (without being actually rude) to get me to go away entirely. Bizarre.

Had it not been an hour until the next Southern, for which I had no intention of sitting around, the sale may well have been lost, and future sales too.

Giving the staff concerned, a certain amount of benefit-of-the-doubt -- that they are not paid "jobsworths"; but volunteers doing their stuff because they genuinely like the railway on which they do it -- one discerns an element of cognitive dissonance: something which humans have always been good at. They enjoy what they do for their railway; they want their railway to succeed; but they signally fail to make the connection, that the railway needs all the money that it can acquire: so they should be ready to do some inconveniencing of themselves, for the chance to get a bit more of said money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Giving the staff concerned, a certain amount of benefit-of-the-doubt -- that they are not paid "jobsworths"; but volunteers doing their stuff because they genuinely like the railway on which they do it -- one discerns an element of cognitive dissonance: something which humans have always been good at. They enjoy what they do for their railway; they want their railway to succeed; but they signally fail to make the connection, that the railway needs all the money that it can acquire: so they should be ready to do some inconveniencing of themselves, for the chance to get a bit more of said money.

That was exactly my thought. She wasn't a jobsworth, just trying to knock off as quickly as possible by cashing up early, but without considering that by doing that the railway might miss out on income.

The lad however did get it, commenting something like "that's a nice last minute extra in my till".

 

[Skymonster]

With a few exceptions (Flying Jockman, maybe Tornado), normals don’t get pulled in by a specific steam loco or class of steam loco. To the vast majority of normals, an A4 delivers a similar experience to any other steam loco, albeit some are bigger than others. Instead they visit heritage railways to ride behind steam locos, because steam locos are very different to the vehicles used by the big railway and because steam is evocative of a bygone era. Heritage diesels on the other hand, even if they are painted green or blue, do if we’re being honest superficially appear to be fairly similar to the locomotives used on the big railway (yes yes I know its primarily only TPE, Chiltern now). THey offer a broadly similar experience, and make similar noises to the locos they can ride behind on the mainline railway. Units even more so - to the average punter a Gen I DMU or a Pacer sounds and feels much like a 158 or even a 195. So these normals are less likely to be drawn into a heritage railway and pay good money to ride behind a diesel or on a unit when they can do similar in the normal course of their lives.

I have a broadly similar analogy: I crew trams at a heritage location in Derbyshire - the open toppers are most popular, the other vintage double deckers nearly as popular, the streamlined double deckers a little less so and the enclosed single deckers such as Blackpool Brush 630 least popular. I think its because the experience riding Blackpool 630 isn‘t a million miles away from travelling on the current Nottingham / Sheffield / Birmingham vehicles. Whereas riding an open top tram is something one can really only do at a heritage operation.

So its going to be difficult to market diesels or units to normals as most won’t perceive the offer to be substantially different to what is available on the big railway, and won’t [want to] understand the nuances of heritage versus current diesels / units. Heritage railways need to largely leave the diesels and units to the enthusiast market and galas because diesels isn’t where the majority of their business will come from.

 

[Magdalia]

With a few exceptions (Flying Jockman, maybe Tornado), normals don’t get pulled in by a specific steam loco or class of steam loco.

For many children the specific steam locomotive that they know and recognise is Thomas the Tank Engine. The Awdry stories are their first introduction to railways and that engrains a "steam good diesel bad" attitude that often lasts a lifetime. The original Awdry stories are now more than 50 years old and they cast a very long shadow.

 

[The exile]

With a few exceptions (Flying Jockman, maybe Tornado), normals don’t get pulled in by a specific steam loco or class of steam loco. To the vast majority of normals, an A4 delivers a similar experience to any other steam loco, albeit some are bigger than others. Instead they visit heritage railways to ride behind steam locos, because steam locos are very different to the vehicles used by the big railway and because steam is evocative of a bygone era. Heritage diesels on the other hand, even if they are painted green or blue, do if we’re being honest superficially appear to be fairly similar to the locomotives used on the big railway (yes yes I know its primarily only TPE, Chiltern now). THey offer a broadly similar experience, and make similar noises to the locos they can ride behind on the mainline railway. Units even more so - to the average punter a Gen I DMU or a Pacer sounds and feels much like a 158 or even a 195. So these normals are less likely to be drawn into a heritage railway and pay good money to ride behind a diesel or on a unit when they can do similar in the normal course of their lives.

I have a broadly similar analogy: I crew trams at a heritage location in Derbyshire - the open toppers are most popular, the other vintage double deckers nearly as popular, the streamlined double deckers a little less so and the enclosed single deckers such as Blackpool Brush 630 least popular. I think its because the experience riding Blackpool 630 isn‘t a million miles away from travelling on the current Nottingham / Sheffield / Birmingham vehicles. Whereas riding an open top tram is something one can really only do at a heritage operation.

So its going to be difficult to market diesels or units to normals as most won’t perceive the offer to be substantially different to what is available on the big railway, and won’t [want to] understand the nuances of heritage versus current diesels / units. Heritage railways need to largely leave the diesels and units to the enthusiast market and galas because diesels isn’t where the majority of their business will come from.

From recent (highly unscientific) observations on “two train operations” lines, the public seemed to be perfectly happy on the diesel (be it hauled or MU) as long as there was also a steam loco out and about. The various curiosities of Mk I stock seemed to be of just as much interest as what was on the front- that’s for those who didn’t spend the entire journey glued to their mobiles.

 

[Iskra]

From recent (highly unscientific) observations on “two train operations” lines, the public seemed to be perfectly happy on the diesel (be it hauled or MU) as long as there was also a steam loco out and about. The various curiosities of Mk I stock seemed to be of just as much interest as what was on the front- that’s for those who didn’t spend the entire journey glued to their mobiles.

I agree- interiors seem to draw a lot of interest. The 101 on the GCR with its First Class and pleasant interior, good views, amusing changes of the destination blind etc was popular with 'normals' when I visited earlier this year. The 37 set out had a hard core of enthusiasts in the first coach behind the loco, but while the rest of the train was busy there was a notable lack of excitement compared to on the steam-hauled services (and not just from the kids).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree- interiors seem to draw a lot of interest. The 101 on the GCR with its First Class and pleasant interior, good views, amusing changes of the destination blind etc was popular with 'normals' when I visited earlier this year. The 37 set out had a hard core of enthusiasts in the first coach behind the loco, but while the rest of the train was busy there was a notable lack of excitement compared to on the steam-hauled services from the kids.

I think classic DMUs are specifically interesting because you can watch the driver. Some mucky old dlesel locomotive on a rake of Mk1s much less so, though if they're particularly nicely preserved or even better compartment stock then the Mk1s may themselves provide a point of interest whatever happens to be pulling them.

 

[paul1609]

For many children the specific steam locomotive that they know and recognise is Thomas the Tank Engine. The Awdry stories are their first introduction to railways and that engrains a "steam good diesel bad" attitude that often lasts a lifetime. The original Awdry stories are now more than 50 years old and they cast a very long shadow.

Indeed, however I was shocked to find that Diesels are the worst kind of person as one of the main story lines of the latest Mission Impossible film!

 

[Titfield]

This chimes with my experience on another heritage railway a few weeks ago. Whilst I'm all for an easygoing attitude, given the challenges the sector is facing it was actually disappointing that the volunteers on the front line weren't a bit sharper.

It appears to me that a) volunteers are quite challenging to manage especially to change behaviours b) there is a lack of appreciation of the financial imperative to generate revenue.