LU/Elizabeth Line 4G update

[sor]

The point is that mobile networks are explicitly designed for high capacity use cases like this. They're very good at scheduling throughput for a large number of devices (this is broken down into small units called "resource blocks") and doing this fairly in order to provide peak speeds to high traffic users but also low latency to other users of the site who just need to load an email for a few hundred milliseconds.

Yes, they *can* be designed for that, but is that the case here - are they putting in the investment for max performance, or is it for basic service? There are no shortages of places above ground where performance is dubious and that's with the MNOs being in full control of what they choose to deploy, whereas there are middlemen involved for the TfL rollout

Roaming on Wi-Fi is a mess!

It doesn't have to be - especially with enterprise grade equipment and configuration/tuning (which is what it essentially is)

I wouldn't say that homes are that well controlled - unless you're in the middle of nowhere, you'll be sharing the spectrum with your neighbours

 

[jon0844]

Roaming on Wi-Fi is usually device controlled and while you can implement steering to try and encourage movement, it often doesn't work as intended. Plus you usually lose connectivity, even if only for a short time, which can impact some services.

Mesh networking is better than it was, but there are still limitations that don't exist on cellular which was designed for movement.

And at home my Wi-Fi 6 network has nobody nearby that causes any issues, and airtime sharing is much better than Wi-Fi 5 and below anyway.

It isn't so much the congestion but just how you roam within a home or office. Most devices are likely fixed, so it's your phone and tablet moving around at home and you won't be so worried about handing off issues (yet my phone despite being Wi-Fi 7 ready and using 6 with my network) will still cling on to the original AP for longer than it should. So 900Mbps calls to 200-300. Toggle flight mode and it reconnects to the mesh node and back to 900!

Then there are the issues for APs allowing connection of legacy devices. I have a separate SSID for Wi-Fi 4 devices so I don't need to use old standards for an old set top box and some IoT stuff. Public hotspot have to allow all, and older standards can impact throughout for all.

 

[MrJeeves]

There are no shortages of places above ground where performance is dubious and that's with the MNOs being in full control of what they choose to deploy, whereas there are middlemen involved for the TfL rollout

There are almost always middlemen above ground. O2 and Vodafone operate a sharing agreement through a joint venture called Cornerstone (CTIL), and Three and EE do the same with MBNL.

They each then also contract works to third party rigging and engineering companies.

Then you have landowners who refuse to allow access or upgrades to sites.

There's always middlemen.

In fact, the TfL rollout is probably one of the simplest. All the infrastructure is in place. Networks have all the infrastructure in place for them already, and just need to plug in some radios, connect them to the antennas, and link them back to basebands and their network core.

EE manages gigabit on the tube on 4G only.

 

[Gigabit]

Is TCR live on all lines?

@MrJeeves is our secret Vodafone employee? I worked there many years ago.

 

[JonnyM]

Is TCR live on all lines?

@MrJeeves is our secret Vodafone employee? I worked there many years ago.

OK, so TCR was live this morning when I got the Central line but this evening there was no signal all, either 4G or 5G. Not sure if it was switched on by mistake, or it was somehow testing which was not completed. This morning it was live on the Northern and Central line platforms. Not sure about the EL.

 

[Gigabit]

I think they test the system intermittently. I've had service with a different cell ID on the District Line platforms at Notting Hill Gate at various times - I am not aware of any stations on that line with kit on the wall but NHG certainly does have it.

So perhaps they just test it intermittently.

 

[MrJeeves]

This morning it was live on the Northern and Central line platforms. Not sure about the EL.

This will be the configuration when it officially goes live in the next few days

 

[Gigabit]

This will be the configuration when it officially goes live in the next few days

So is Elizabeth Line possibly going live too? One blink for yes? Two blinks for no?

 

[JonnyM]

This will be the configuration when it officially goes live in the next few days

Hopefully TPTB are configuring more than one

 

[Gigabit]

I wonder which stations will go live or will it just be the one?

All of the Northern Line?

 

[JonnyM]

I wonder which stations will go live or will it just be the one?

All of the Northern Line?

From looking Vodafone’s web page it will either be TCR, Euston, Oxford Circus. Either one or all, take your pick. My bet is on TCR only.

 

[MrJeeves]

So is Elizabeth Line possibly going live too? One blink for yes? Two blinks for no?

Two blinks! :P

From looking Vodafone’s web page it will either be TCR, Euston, Oxford Circus. Either one or all, take your pick. My bet is on TCR only.

More than just TCR

 

[JonnyM]

Two blinks! :P


More than just TCR

Ah! Hopefully all three, or more than three! Send smoke signals.....

 

[Gigabit]

Elizabeth Line is never going live at this rate

@MrJeeves I am sure is a Voda man, I am sure he won't publicly say so.

No service at TCR on Central Line this morning on Vodafone

 

[MrJeeves]

I am sure is a Voda man, I am sure he won't publicly say so.

Hah, sadly not. I'll happily say (it's on my Twitter and GitHub) that I work at Raileasy on the TrainSplit Android app.

Mobile networking is just my hobby, and I am part of a wider group of nerds who have various connections within the industry happy to share information to us.

 

[Gigabit]

How does one become an insider? I used to work Vodafone many years ago and only have a couple of contacts left. I did get some information about the Three merger that I could share if anyone is interested.

 

[JonnyM]

Two blinks! :P


More than just TCR

Any chatter about when the Jubilee line is going to be finished? Along with the EL it seems the eastern end of the Jubilee (from Green Park to Finchley Road) has been forgotten about.

 

[MrJeeves]

Any chatter about when the Jubilee line is going to be finished? Along with the EL it seems the eastern end of the Jubilee (from Green Park to Finchley Road) has been forgotten about.

Jubilee Line Extension was always a trial deployment, but the rest of the line is included within the wider rollout plans.

No idea as to when, though.

 

[Gigabit]

@MrJeeves will they come back and update the trial deployment to be in spec with the rest of the network?

 

[MrJeeves]

@MrJeeves will they come back and update the trial deployment to be in spec with the rest of the network?

If they do, I'm quite sure it will be after 2024, to be honest.

 

[JonnyM]

If they do, I'm quite sure it will be after 2024, to be honest.

There was this regarding the Jubilee line which was posted a while ago - https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.p...-rollout-on-london-underground-completes.html

I thought it was rather vague at the time and still think so when re-reading now. I read it the quotes as “complete” because it’s clearly not.

 

[Gigabit]

If they do, I'm quite sure it will be after 2024, to be honest.

I don't think they'll even hit the 2024 target if I am honest.

I can't think doing the work on the District Line is going to be easy as I assume they have to work with Network Rail. And as I found from my FOI request, it's not covering outdoor areas even though some outdoor sections have poor coverage.

 

[JonnyM]

This will be the configuration when it officially goes live in the next few days

It appears there was some further config work at TCR this morning as 4G was live on the Northern line platforms, but not the on the Central line ones, nor in the connecting passageways. Hopefully soon!

I don't think they'll even hit the 2024 target if I am honest.

I can't think doing the work on the District Line is going to be easy as I assume they have to work with Network Rail. And as I found from my FOI request, it's not covering outdoor areas even though some outdoor sections have poor coverage.

They will need a miracle in order to meet the "end of 2024" deadline.

 

[Gigabit]

Every station that comes online seems to have some teething issues, I know it's an old structure and each station is unique etc but I would have thought they'd getter at each station they do. They've actually slowed down.

 

[Dstock7080]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66733420

The first Tubes stations in London's West End have received high-speed mobile coverage.
4G and 5G is available at Oxford Circus and Tottenham Court Road ticket halls and on the Central line between the stations.
Further sections of the Northern and Central line will be getting coverage in the coming months.
By December, 33 stations with underground platforms will have mobile coverage, increasing to 40 in 2024.

 

[jon81uk]

But for London Underground Wi-Fi, why not just disable it altogether at stations with good 4G and 5G coverage? Do we need station Wi-Fi anymore?

For laptops and tablets without a 4G modem. Yes it’s less likely compared to a National Rail station, but some people might be using a Wi-Fi only device.

 

[Mojo]

Press release issued by TfL this morning:

• High-speed mobile coverage now available in ticket halls and Central line between Oxford Circus and Tottenham Court Road, with further sections of the Northern and Central line getting coverage in coming months
• First Elizabeth line stations to go live by end of the year, with all stations and tunnelled sections getting coverage by the end of Spring 2024
• Coverage will also now be expanded to provide uninterrupted high-speed mobile connectivity on the Docklands Light Railway and between Highbury & Islington and New Cross on the London Overground within the next two years
• Progress means that a significant proportion of the entire Tube network will have 4G and 5G mobile coverage by the end of 2024

The press release also includes a map (https://cdn.prgloo.com/media/a9d5a45c6b5e4b9cbd40e3917ad63e6c?width=580&height=580). Which shows the only sections to receive coverage by Spring 2024 will be the Central line between White City and Bank, the Northern line between Golders Green / East Finchley and Euston (City) / Tottenham Court Road, and the Piccadilly line between Russell Square and Covent Garden; and the Elizabeth line between Paddington and Stratford / Abbey Wood.

 

[JonnyM]

Press release issued by TfL this morning:


The press release also includes a map (https://cdn.prgloo.com/media/a9d5a45c6b5e4b9cbd40e3917ad63e6c?width=580&height=580). Which shows the only sections to receive coverage by Spring 2024 will be the Central line between White City and Bank, the Northern line between Golders Green / East Finchley and Euston (City) / Tottenham Court Road, and the Piccadilly line between Russell Square and Covent Garden; and the Elizabeth line between Paddington and Stratford / Abbey Wood.

Thanks. It's very exciting!

 

[MrJeeves]

Shame they didn't meet the summer deadline for some of the other stations, but another excuse to update my map, I suppose.

 

[JonnyM]

Shame they didn't meet the summer deadline for some of the other stations, but another excuse to update my map, I suppose.

The map on TfL's website shows a tiny fraction of the entire network that is due to be complete by Spring 2024. Better than nothing I suppose.

Your map and information on the page is really useful. I see you state the date when it was updated, can you just briefly mention what content you've updated? Thanks.