December 2023 Timetable Change

[Nicholas Lewis]

Agreed, it looks a more logical structure, with a much better service for Gatwick passengers and very little if any detrimental effect for local users. If travelling to or from Gatwick it was an annoyance that if you just missed the direct train, the poor Southern connection at Redhill meant that using the Redhill terminator was little better than waiting an hour for the next through service. At certain times of day the Redhill train seemed to lay over at Reading for extended periods too, which might now have been eliminated.

Let's hope it works reliably in practice.

No reason for it not to be as the interface with GTR/SWR are all on standard hourly patterns

 

[JonathanH]

I am also impressed at the Reading to Gatwick journey times - they look like they are roughly 1h30, when the "fast" service currently takes 1h25 anyway

Time was when the service was 1h15 between Reading and Gatwick with the semi-fast stops. The 1034 from Reading would arrive at Gatwick 1149, and come back as the 1203 from Gatwick, back in Reading at 1318. The elongation to 1h25 is a more recent change.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Time was when the service was 1h15 between Reading and Gatwick with the semi-fast stops. The 1034 from Reading would arrive at Gatwick 1149, and come back as the 1203 from Gatwick, back in Reading at 1318. The elongation to 1h25 is a more recent change.

Indeed schedules have been eased out over the years now and overall journey to gatwick will be at least 10mins longer than it used to be. Mind you not sure journey time is that big a driver when people are going on holiday and this is main driver here to generate revenue and have to applaud DfT agreeing to an increased service even if its a fudge up.

 

[infobleep]

I am also impressed at the Reading to Gatwick journey times - they look like they are roughly 1h30, when the "fast" service currently takes 1h25 anyway - I'm sure every single passenger will welcome 2tph even if it means a service that takes 5 mins longer.

From some stations getting to Gatwick Airport will be faster. So perhaps they can promote it from that angle, given TOCs like to talk about time improvements.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2023 ==

Furious?
At the moment demand is still lagging on the Birmingham route compared to Manchesters.

If that is the case, should one become furious at the general public for not using the railway enough so it can return?

 

[Class 170101]

If that is the case, should one become furious at the general public for not using the railway enough so it can return?

Chicken and egg, does a good service need to be provided for people to use it or do lots of people need to use it to provide a good service?

 

[infobleep]

Agreed, it looks like a more logical structure, with a much better service for Gatwick passengers and very little if any detrimental effect on local users. If travelling to or from Gatwick it was an annoyance that if you just missed the direct train, the poor Southern connection at Redhill meant that using the Redhill terminator was little better than waiting an hour for the next through service. At certain times of day, the Redhill train seemed to lay over at Reading for extended periods too, which might now have been eliminated.

Let's hope it works reliably in practice.

When I needed to be in Haywards Heath around 18:30, I often didn't wish to get the 16:40 Guildford to Gatwick Airport service, as I would arrive too early and have to hang around. I would also have to finish work earlier.

So I would get the 17:11 and change at Redhill and Gatwick Airport or Horley. This got me into Haywards Heath at either 18:31 or 18:34.

If I missed the 17:11, I would have a 28-minute wait until 17:39. If trains were slightly delayed at Gatwick Airport, I could get into Hauwqrds Heath as early as 18:40 and even if they were on time at 18:43.

So by leaving 28 minutes later, I would only arrive only 6 to 12 minutes later! The reason I wouldn't usually get the 17:39 is that I needed to be in around 18:30 and getting in later would delay me where I needed to be.

So this improved service will be so much better for connections south of Redhill. Yes, I will be in before 18:30 but not around 45 minutes earlier!

There have been times when I have been grateful for the x32 Gatwick Airport to Redhill service. If I missed the x29 to Guildford, it would mean arriving 27 minutes later, solely by departing Gatwick Airport 3 minutes later! That highlights his poor the connections are and why the change will be so good.

Delay repay would be rarely due however because I rarely allowed the official 10-minute connection time at Gatwick Airport. I mostly don't need it. 4 to 5 minutes is enough for me or less if it's a cross-platform change as it is for the 19:29.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Time was when the service was 1h15 between Reading and Gatwick with the semi-fast stops. The 1034 from Reading would arrive at Gatwick 1149, and come back as the 1203 from Gatwick, back in Reading at 1318. The elongation to 1h25 is a more recent change.

Don’t forget the proposed timetable and recent timetables use the slowing cl769 timing loads. The summer timetable next year should see new turbo timing loads.

 

[infobleep]

Don’t forget the proposed timetable and recent timetables use the slowing cl769 timing loads. The summer timetable next year should see new turbo timing loads.

I guess one needs to compete it to the pee 769 timing loads.

 

[FenMan]

Don’t forget the proposed timetable and recent timetables use the slowing cl769 timing loads. The summer timetable next year should see new turbo timing loads.

Indeed, I live in Blackwater and have copy of the 2003 timetable that shows Blackwater - Gatwick in 57m. The 769 timing loads have increased the journey time to 1h03m or more for the current semi-fasts.

 

[Minstral25]

Don’t forget the proposed timetable and recent timetables use the slowing cl769 timing loads. The summer timetable next year should see new turbo timing loads.

Are there slots available at the constricted stations to move the times they pass through to take advantage of the faster trains?

 

[DelW]

Are there slots available at the constricted stations to move the times they pass through to take advantage of the faster trains?

The Reading end surely must have flexibility, given that SWR's service is (I think) now only half hourly, and the recent rebuild added track and platform capacity. There will be 3 DC platforms available to operate two half-hourly turn-rounds.

Guildford <> Shalford Junction still has one missing Portsmouth path free, though the Farnham shuttle service now occupies p6 most of the time.

Presumably the Redhill <> Gatwick times are likely to have to stay as they are, given how busy that line is.

 

[infobleep]

The Reading end surely must have flexibility, given that SWR's service is (I think) now only half hourly, and the recent rebuild added track and platform capacity. There will be 3 DC platforms available to operate two half-hourly turn-rounds.

Guildford <> Shalford Junction still has one missing Portsmouth path free, though the Farnham shuttle service now occupies p6 most of the time.

Presumably the Redhill <> Gatwick times are likely to have to stay as they are, given how busy that line is.

It is a shame the Reading service is only half hourly, as it departs Twickenham just as a train from Kingston pulls in, resulting in a 30 minute wait for the next train. It's actually faster to go via Wimbledon and London Paddington, using the district line between the two.

 

[mangyiscute]

I'm not sure the Reading to Waterloo service has ever been more than half hourly, at least for the past 10 or so years I can't recall it being any more frequent except in peaks

 

[Farigiraf]

It seems a few Cambridge to Brightons will call at Hassocks and Preston Park again, they haven't been doing so lately
Edit: I noticed this has been mentioned earlier in the thread. Sorry

 

[sp503]

Agreed, it looks a more logical structure, with a much better service for Gatwick passengers and very little if any detrimental effect for local users. If travelling to or from Gatwick it was an annoyance that if you just missed the direct train, the poor Southern connection at Redhill meant that using the Redhill terminator was little better than waiting an hour for the next through service. At certain times of day the Redhill train seemed to lay over at Reading for extended periods too, which might now have been eliminated.

Let's hope it works reliably in practice.

Agree especially with the Redhill lay over point. The current timetable always has the Gatwicks having really tight turnarounds during the day while the Redhill sits at Reading for a nice part of the hour doing nothing, not even going to the Gatwick’s rescue when the latter was arriving Reading late. Hope the timetable recast will increase the attractiveness of the entire route. Just a bit of a shame the Sunday timetable, which I am not a fan of, stays the same.

 

[peterson]

I'm not sure the Reading to Waterloo service has ever been more than half hourly, at least for the past 10 or so years I can't recall it being any more frequent except in peaks

pre-pandemic it had crept up to 4 trains per hour for extended peak times morning and evening with the odd random missing train. It had been stated as aiming to get to 4 tph all day. The extra trains omitted Earley, Winnersh in the way that the GWR to Gatwick does.

 

[infobleep]

Agree especially with the Redhill lay over point. The current timetable always has the Gatwicks having really tight turnarounds during the day while the Redhill sits at Reading for a nice part of the hour doing nothing, not even going to the Gatwick’s rescue when the latter was arriving Reading late. Hope the timetable recast will increase the attractiveness of the entire route. Just a bit of a shame the Sunday timetable, which I am not a fan of, stays the same.

I wonder if it would have required more resources to run 2 trains an hour on a Sunday.

I don't know what airport traffic is like on a Sunday, which is obviously the key driver for this increase more generally.

Tonight I have the perfect example of why 2 trains an hour will be good.

19:12 Haywards Heath to Gatwick Airport service running with an 8-minute delay due to a late running freight train. This occurred around 18:40, which was after I'd checked how the trains were doing for a second time.

Now officially one should allow 10 minutes to connect to the Gatwick Airport train to Guildford but as it is a cross-platform change I only allow 5 minutes.

So tonight I'm on the 19:17. With a run, this would enable me to get the 19:32 to Redhill but due to an operational incident that is cancelled. The 19:19 and 19:49 seevufes were also cancelled. Thus there is no way to reach the stopping Redhill to Guildford service before it departs. So I will be an hour late I suspect

With a second train from Gatwick Airport, this would only be around 30 minutes.

I will of course travel via Clapham Junction. That might save some of the 59 minutes, given I'm arriving at 19:30.

So as it turned out as I got into Gatwick Airport on platform 5, I could see the train to Guildford so I decided to get out and leg it round.

Alas, I got to platform 3 as the train departed. It did depart late, dispute arriving in plenty if time to depart. If the signaller had put our train on platform 4, it would have been okay. Note both the 19:12 and 19:27 trains stop at the same stations from Haywards Heath onwards. It would also have cleared loads of passengers from platform 4 too but that is a separate thread topic on way more passengers aren't on platform 5, which I might start.

So I ran back round hoping to get the train I had been on but wasn't lucky so I ran back to platform 4. I got on a very busy train but surprisingly managed to get a seat within a couple of minutes.

With two trains an hour, I wouldn't even be on this train. I've not actually checked how the trains are from Clapham Junction towards Guildford. I know it will involve a change at Woking but I will save just a over 10 minutes of the 60 minute delay.

It was my choice not to follow the official 10 minute connection but over time I save more time doing so than sticking to the timetable rules and occasionally getting caught out like this.

Just as an aside, the 20:27 to Salisbury is packed. No idea why. Maybe it always is being 6 carriages. so having a second train to Reading would remove additional people such as myself on this train. There are just so many additional benefits beyond people just going to the airport.

 

[Peter0124]

Annoys me that TfW are part of the cheaper London-Manchester fare and not Northern. Considering Network Rail PRIVs aren't allowed on TfW I think.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Just a bit of a shame the Sunday timetable, which I am not a fan of, stays the same.

I understand an improved Sunday North Downs plan is hoped for a future timetable change.

 

[Minstral25]

I understand an improved Sunday North Downs plan is hoped for a future timetable change.

Apparently GWR have asked for uplift to Gatwick on Sundays from Jun 24 - dependant on usual permissions from DfT (cost) and NR

 

[FenMan]

Apparently GWR have asked for uplift to Gatwick on Sundays from Jun 24 - dependant on usual permissions from DfT (cost) and NR

I'm old enough to remember the old Sunday timteable on the North Downs - an hourly semi-fast between Reading and Gatwick and a 1tp2h stopping service to Redhill. On summer Sundays the trains could resemble being in Kolkata in rush hour. The scrummage on arrival at Reading could be quite something!

 

[infobleep]

Apparently GWR have asked for uplift to Gatwick on Sundays from Jun 24 - dependant on usual permissions from DfT (cost) and NR

Here is hoping the costs work out favorably.

Good to hear they see hoping to do this though.

I remember when there was just one train an hour on Sundays.

 

[ATrainSpotter]

Are we expecting any major changes from anyone?

Hopefully southeastern gets a major boost in services.

 

[liamf656]

Hopefully southeastern gets a major boost in services.

It was already stated upthread that Southeastern aren’t changing much

 

[SeanM1997]

Is the Crewe - Birmingham West Midlands Railway Service only becoming Crewe-Stafford?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the Crewe - Birmingham West Midlands Railway Service only becoming Crewe-Stafford?

For now yes. Once whatever new line it is opens (I forget) it will revert to running to Birmingham via that route.

 

[SeanM1997]

For now yes. Once whatever new line it is opens (I forget) it will revert to running to Birmingham via that route.

Thanks - hopefully for May 2024 then

Disappointing several operators haven't returned to service levels. Avanti's Chester-London is just peak times only, meaning the once reliable half-hourly Crewe-Chester consistently has half-hourly gaps. EMR used to be hourly Crewe-Derby and now has gaps on Crewe-Nottingham... a more reliable hourly service would surely be preferred. Nantwich, a town of almost 20,000 people, still has just a two-hourly service and some additional services at peak time, if only the Crewe-Shrewsbury shuttle was hourly but TfW are not incentivised to improve services in England

Additionally, looks to be Liverpool-Birmingham goes half-hourly all day on Saturdays - extra services calling at Liverpool Lime Street, Liverpool South Parkway, Runcorn, Crewe, Stafford, Penkridge, Wolverhampton & Birmingham New Street

 

[craigybagel]

Nantwich, a town of almost 20,000 people, still has just a two-hourly service and some additional services at peak time, if only the Crewe-Shrewsbury shuttle was hourly but TfW are not incentivised to improve services in England

Crewe - Shrewsbury shuttle not running hourly is nothing to do with it being England, there just isn't the demand for it. The current 2 hourly service is very lightly loaded outside of Crewe - Nantwich. Nantwich could maybe do with some more off-peak calls in the Cardiff services - which will hopefully come when the Marches are recast, but an hourly shuttle would be a waste.

 

[The Planner]

Thanks - hopefully for May 2024 then

Doubt it, it relies on Willenhall and Darlaston opening, they won't be ready by May next year.

 

[josh-j]

Crewe - Shrewsbury shuttle not running hourly is nothing to do with it being England, there just isn't the demand for it. The current 2 hourly service is very lightly loaded outside of Crewe - Nantwich. Nantwich could maybe do with some more off-peak calls in the Cardiff services - which will hopefully come when the Marches are recast, but an hourly shuttle would be a waste.

To be fair if a town has an infrequent service fewer people will bother with it in the first place. Two hours is pretty inconvenient!