I see that the latest stock for LUL is air conditioned. I always thought this wasn't possible, as the aircon would simply take heat out of the train and dump it into the surrounding air (the tunnels and stations), heating them up still further (they are already unbrearably hot in summer).
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Aircon on the Tube
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The Victoria and W&C would be the hardest to aircon, being all underground. The "tube" lines that have surface running could perhaps have aircon systems that are only active on the surface?
The Subsurface lines, being rather less enclosed- even the Circle, other than along the Embankment, has a lot of open sections- are much more suited. Even the tunnels are rather airier- remeber, the Circle used to be steam powered.
The Subsurface lines, being rather less enclosed- even the Circle, other than along the Embankment, has a lot of open sections- are much more suited. Even the tunnels are rather airier- remeber, the Circle used to be steam powered.
ChrisCooper
Established Member
Another problem with aircon on the tube trains is that is takes up too much space. On normal units the aircon is in the roof, but with tube trains there would not be room to fit it without effecting headroom. There is not enough space to fit it underfloor on a normal unit (although much of it is underfloor on hauled stock), let alone on a tube train.
From experience with the air-con NY Subway, enclosed stations get very hot. Probably, with Tube lines, it would be better to cool some of the major stations, Oxford Circus would be a good start, and rely on the piston effect of trains going along tunnels to distribute the cooled air.
Blindtraveler
Established Member
How are the 2009 stock working in terms of onboard fans/general air circulation? Not yet used one but i've always thought, hot though they are that you get a good breez on the 67 stock units
Was on one today (albeit a rather quiet one) and it seemed OK, certainly no worse than the 67 stock
I find the Victoria Line very hot, and when changing from the Bakerloo to Victoria Line at Oxford Circus, as soon as you walk from the joining corridor onto the platform itself the heat seems to hit you. Any idea why that is?
I also find the new trains very warm, blowing around a lot of the warm air - as they have powerful fans. Maybe it varies from train to train, but there was very warm air being blown about on a train at about 11pm when it was virtually empty, so it's not as if the people on the train heated it up.
However, the service frequency - even at that time of night - was surprising. An old train left as we got to the platform, and a new one was right behind that we boarded. Obviously we caught up (the 09 stock being somewhat faster than 67 stock) so we were stuck in tunnels for quite a bit. When we got off at King's Cross, another train was on the platform before we'd walked to the exit!
Maybe when trains run that close together, there's more heat in the tunnels - but while you could say that is to be expected, the point is that they are going to be uncomfortably hot when running well; add in loads of commuters and they're going to be quite nasty in the coming months. The only 'upside' is that warmer weather will mean people not wearing thick clothing and coats.
I also find the new trains very warm, blowing around a lot of the warm air - as they have powerful fans. Maybe it varies from train to train, but there was very warm air being blown about on a train at about 11pm when it was virtually empty, so it's not as if the people on the train heated it up.
However, the service frequency - even at that time of night - was surprising. An old train left as we got to the platform, and a new one was right behind that we boarded. Obviously we caught up (the 09 stock being somewhat faster than 67 stock) so we were stuck in tunnels for quite a bit. When we got off at King's Cross, another train was on the platform before we'd walked to the exit!
Maybe when trains run that close together, there's more heat in the tunnels - but while you could say that is to be expected, the point is that they are going to be uncomfortably hot when running well; add in loads of commuters and they're going to be quite nasty in the coming months. The only 'upside' is that warmer weather will mean people not wearing thick clothing and coats.
causton
Established Member
Whenever I use the Victoria line it always seems very warm and dry - I often feel like I'm about to pass out waiting for a train (forget which platforms though!) until I get on a train (usually not too long thankfully :P ) to stand near the end door to cool me down
Blindtraveler
Established Member
Whys that? Do the 09's create less heat than the 67s in opperation? How long til full rollout is complete. Incidentally, hows the S stocks AC coping in the recent hot weather?
SteamontheMet
Member
Wasn't there an idea at some deep level tube stations, they where going to install waterpipes in the walls and pump cool/cold water through them in order to cool the station.
A few years ago in the summer the heat was unbearable at Oxford Circus, but for the past year and recently in hot weather i find the central line platforms, staircases and escalators quite cool, I am just wandering whether this is the Waterpipe cooling system or something else?
I think i heard somewhere the Oxford Circus was the pilot for this system?
A few years ago in the summer the heat was unbearable at Oxford Circus, but for the past year and recently in hot weather i find the central line platforms, staircases and escalators quite cool, I am just wandering whether this is the Waterpipe cooling system or something else?
I think i heard somewhere the Oxford Circus was the pilot for this system?
Don't know about elsewhere, but this system is currently in use at Victoria at the bottom of the interchange escalators and if you stand underneath it you can definitely feel some cool air coming out. I understand the installations are about to expire; I couldn't say how successful they've been, but it's only one of a package of improvement measures.
It was featured in a BBC documentary broadcast in 2007. Go to http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/climateexperiment/whattheymean/theuk.shtml and click to view the video called "Heat / Transport" (it's the 2nd one along the top row). David Waboso (now LU's Capital Programmes Director) explains it.
As part of the upgrade for the Victoria line, fan shafts are being upgraded and the fans increased in number (including in some shafts where they were decommissioned).
The 2009 stock uses regen braking. The energy should be fed back in to the track, however this has caused problems for the older stock and so is currently being converted to heat energy.
That heat is being drawn back into carriages via the air circulating fans.
That heat is being drawn back into carriages via the air circulating fans.
causton
Established Member
That certainly explains a lot - thanks
Ah, thanks for that. I thought it was just me expecting too much - as I have felt the air and it's always been pretty warm. Combined with the heat from equipment under the seats, the carriage doesn't really stand a chance.
Yet I read on here people saying it was cooler, which didn't match my own experiences at all!
subway156
Member
It's been going on for years in NYC. Some lines are both elevated and subway together. Doesn't matter, they work and they are COLD. Waiting under ground on some platforms are way hot. Steamy, dripping hot. When you into the train, it can feek a bit chilly at first especially if you're sweatin'.
Blindtraveler
Established Member
yet more proof if needed that customers in every area possible leav there common sense at home! Presumably regen breaking will be re-enabled wen the last 67 stock is withdrawn?
haha!
My dad travelled from Tottenham Hale to Green Park earlier this week and mentioned to me how uncomfortable it was (heat wise).
I really can't believe how hot the new trains are, and indeed the Victoria Line platforms. I boarded from Warren Street the other day and you go down the two escalators and it's fine, then turn to the platform - walk through the little corridor, still fine, - and 'bam!' the heat hits you like opening an oven door.
On the trains, it's very warm air coming out of the vents - at quite high speed. I actually wonder if it might be better to turn them off for the time being?
I've not seen an old train for a bit, but do wonder if it will make that much of a difference when they stop. I really do hope so!
swt_passenger
Veteran Member
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How much of the NY subway is in deep tubes? That is the fundamental problem.
Aircon on the 'tube' is orders of magnitude more difficult compared to the SSR, or the NY subway...
Not possible, owing to Manhattan being built on solid granite, so it runs just under the streets. Still absolutely sweltering when I went there, though, despite having loads of fans all over the place. The trains made it worse, by pumping heat out into the stations whenever they arrived. Not quite as bad in Boston, but the stations there are high-roofed and airy, and it was 5-degrees cooler outside.
This is why I reckon it would be easier to cool the stations and simply have pressure ventilation on the trains. Cold air sinks, so it would collect on the platforms, and the trains themselves would distribute it, by essentially acting as "pistons" going down the tunnels. That happens already, note the "wind" effect just before a train arrives.
subway156
Member
Opened in 1911, the 191st Street station is 181 feet under the street. Every car currently running in the NY system is air-conditioned. Whether a train is on the El or under ground, the temperature is the same.
You can put air conditioning on any train, but you need to vent the hot air extracted.
I've had the extraction pipe fall out of the back of my portable air conditioner. Within a matter of an hour, the room is about 35 degrees and incredibly humid. That's what the tunnels (and stations) would end up like.
The solution, regardless of the depth of the tunnels, would be a way to extract the heat from the low level stations. I have to assume they've done this somehow in NY.
I've had the extraction pipe fall out of the back of my portable air conditioner. Within a matter of an hour, the room is about 35 degrees and incredibly humid. That's what the tunnels (and stations) would end up like.
The solution, regardless of the depth of the tunnels, would be a way to extract the heat from the low level stations. I have to assume they've done this somehow in NY.
They haven't, trust me. They just expect it to convect up the station entrances and ventilation ducts. Banks of fans help a little, but apparently they get people fainting on the platforms all the time.
subway156
Member
We'll call that statement a shovel full (not a load, mind you) of manure. Fainting is not a daily experience in the NY subway system. People who do faint are probably ill to begin with. But, I went to my sources who work in the system and they tell me that many platforms do reach over 100F. If you must wait for a train, the sweat rolls off your body. Then, you freeze once you step aboard. They keep it cold because you just can't appeal to everyone's comfort level. It's on or off and that's what these customers expect. There are many vents to the street in those tunnels, as you would expect. But, many stations are very close to the surface and the heat level it not as torrid as it is elsewhere. I also want to say that although I love the NY system and road it many times as a child, I GREATLY ADMIRE London's Underground. It is beautiful. I know it has it's negatives, but because I've never ridden it (my London born did many times) I want to explore it. I read about the historic building, design and rolling stock often. I have lots of books to identify carriages. They are quite unique. I feel that New York's cars have because giant rolling toasters with no warmth, little style and are very plain. But, that's their idea of modern design. They are pretty quiet running as compared with the old timers. But those old units had that gear motor whine and compressor operation that was just so cool. Nowadays, you have to pay loads of cash to ride antique units. The fact that they can be resurrected means that they were well-built in the first place. I hope you agree.
Comes from talking to commuters in the middle of a heatwave. Perhaps we should take word-of-mouth statements to British tourists with a pinch of salt (although the effects of a pinch of salt on bull manure are unknown).
subway156
Member
I would not doubt what your countrymens' feelings about traveling abroad. The northeastern part of the U.S. has **** weather. The extremes of the cold winters and humid summers are brutal. The Spring and Fall are beautiful but fleeting. I am sure if I rode on the LU w/o a/c, I'd sweat into a lake. But, the a/c in most NY cars is COLD! No happy medium. I do not doubt any other person's feelings about things like this. It's something out of their comfort zone. Forgive me if I sounded like a wise-ass.
I'm talking about the stations. This was the end of last June when I had to do a bit of research at the UN before escaping to Canada. The trains were wonderfully cool (certainly compared to the dump I was staying in near Times Square - the a/c was broken) trouble was they dumped all that heat into the enclosed stations. Particularly one, think it was Broadway-Lafayette Street, where I found myself stuck for a long time in the rush hour, only to find that I was on the opposite platform and had to cross to the other side (never sure which side is the right side). They had banks of fans all the way along both platforms, but all they seemed to do was blow hot air around. What was needed was a nice big hole in the roof, and possibly something resembling smoke hoods over the a/c outlets on the trains so that they would duct the hot air out.
I wouldn't mind the winters, comes from spending a lot of time in Scotland. Just never again in the summer. I'm trying to persuade my mother to head over on the QM2 for her 65th birthday. It's in April, thank God!
I'll never complain about the Tube being hot again.
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