Travelled with out-of-date railcard

[Verbena]

I would like some advice, please.

I've received a letter from South West Railway prosecution department informing me I will be taken to court unless I pay an out of court settlement. This relates to a journey I made in the summer when the guard pointed out to me that my railcard was out of date. It's no defence, I know, but I had believed my railcard to be valid - my fault, of course, for not checking. The guard said it would probably be okay but he would have to take down my details. He didn't offer me the chance to pay the excess owed on the ticket.

The next day I travelled home, again on a ticket I had previously purchased when believing my railcard to be valid. My ticket and railcard were not checked at any point. I should have purchased a new railcard before making this journey, but that did not occur to me at the time.

On checking back in my Trainline app, I have noticed that I made one other journey a few weeks earlier, again using the out of date railcard. I didn't realize this at the time, and my railcard wasn't checked at any point.

The amount I have to pay is over £700, made up of 'fare avoided' plus admin fees. My query is whether this is likely to be for the single journey on which my railcard was checked, or for the additional journeys I made. The amount seems hugely out of proportion to the amount of fare I avoided, even if the other journeys are included.

Any advice or info would be appreciated.

 

[30907]

It sounds as though they want the full Anytime Single/Return fare for each journey they have identified, to which they will add £100+ in admin costs.

Does that come anywhere the total?

 

[swt_passenger]

They usually ask for admin fees of around the £100-£200 level, if they’ve looked at historic journeys on an online account they could add up to quite a large sum because they‘ll charge Anytime fares and won’t make any allowance for the reduced fares you paid.

Can you give us an idea of the overall journey length? I see you’ve put down Christchurch on joining the forum, obviously there’s a fairly high Anytime fare to Waterloo...

 

[Mzzzs]

It would be of great help if you could post any letters you have received.

 

[Gloster]

Just to be clear. You did not buy a new railcard after you had been stopped on the outward journey, so you returned the following day using the return part of the ticket that had a railcard discount, but still without a valid railcard.

 

[Verbena]

Just to be clear. You did not buy a new railcard after you had been stopped on the outward journey, so you returned the following day using the return part of the ticket that had a railcard discount, but still without a valid railcard.

Yes, that's right.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2023 ==

They usually ask for admin fees of around the £100-£200 level, if they’ve looked at historic journeys on an online account they could add up to quite a large sum because they‘ll charge Anytime fares and won’t make any allowance for the reduced fares you paid.

Can you give us an idea of the overall journey length? I see you’ve put down Christchurch on joining the forum, obviously there’s a fairly high Anytime fare to Waterloo...

The journey on which i was spoken to was Crewkerne to Waterloo, and the following day I travelled Waterloo to Christchurch. My journey of a few weeks earlier was a day return from Christchurch to Waterloo.

They have asked me for £472 for fares avoided and £254 for operational and admin costs.

 

[swt_passenger]

[…]
The journey on which i was spoken to was Crewkerne to Waterloo, and the following day I travelled Waterloo to Christchurch. My journey of a few weeks earlier was a day return from Christchurch to Waterloo.

They have asked me for £472 for fares avoided and £254 for operational and admin costs.

The £472 does seem high if those are the only journeys.

 

[Verbena]

The £472 does seem high if those are the only journeys.

That's what I thought, but wondered if there was an element of 'fine' included as well as the actual fares?

I have emailed them asking them if they can give me details of which journey/journeys they are looking to prosecute me for. I wonder if they are obliged to tell me this or not?

 

[30907]

That's what I thought, but wondered if there was an element of 'fine' included as well as the actual fares?

I have emailed them asking them if they can give me details of which journey/journeys they are looking to prosecute me for. I wonder if they are obliged to tell me this or not?

I can't get the fares above about £270, so I think it is reasonable to ask clarification.

 

[Verbena]

I can't get the fares above about £270, so I think it is reasonable to ask clarification.

Thank you

 

[furlong]

Have you supplied a copy of your old railcard? Otherwise they may be trying to make you pay again for earlier journeys they've found, assuming you never had a valid railcard.

 

[Verbena]

Have you supplied a copy of your old railcard? Otherwise they may be trying to make you pay again for earlier journeys they've found, assuming you never had a valid railcard.

They haven't asked for it. I have since bought a new railcard and used that for a couple of journeys, so maybe they could also be charging me for those. There's no way of knowing since they haven't provided any breakdown of the penalty fee. I've emailed them, but the automatic reply says it could take up to two weeks to reply. It's a bit worrying as payment is due within 21 days of receiving their letter.

Hi again, I've received information from SWR on which journeys I am being charged for. I agree with the journeys, but I don't understand why they seem to be charging me double for the journeys between Bournemouth and London, and Christchurch and London. But not for the Crewkerne to London journey. Is anyone able to explain this, I would be so grateful. Attaching a clip from the document they have sent me.

 

[island]

Hi again, I've received information from SWR on which journeys I am being charged for. I agree with the journeys, but I don't understand why they seem to be charging me double for the journeys between Bournemouth and London, and Christchurch and London. But not for the Crewkerne to London journey. Is anyone able to explain this, I would be so grateful. Attaching a clip from the document they have sent me.

Unfortunately it’s not possible to discern that from the very small screenshot you’ve provided. It’s possible it’s a clerical error, which they might correct if you ask.

 

[swt_passenger]

Unfortunately it’s not possible to discern that from the very small screenshot you’ve provided. It’s possible it’s a clerical error, which they might correct if you ask.

In the full view, (which appears with a click on my iPad), it definitely looks to me like there are 3 of 7 journies that are duplicates.

 

[30907]

In the full view, (which appears with a click on my iPad), it definitely looks to me like there are 3 of 7 journies that are duplicates.

I wonder if there were journeys that were not made and refunded?

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder if there were journeys that were not made and refunded?

Not sure at all, I think we need someone to reply who knows what those long numbers mean, and whether or not they are unique to one ticket, or can cover additional purchases made in the same transaction.

 

[Hadders]

For the benefit of those who can't see the attachment the list they've provided you lists the following tickets with a date of 13.07.23:

Bournemouth to Waterloo x2 time 10:24
Waterloo to Bournemouth x2 time 22:08

The following with a date of 26.07.23:
Crewkerne to Waterloo time 10:49

And these with a date of 27.07.23:
Waterloo to Christchurch (Super off peak single) time 00:18
Waterloo to Christchurch (Evening Out SIngle) time 00:18

It does seem strange that there are multiple tickets for the same time - did you buy more than one ticket to travel on the same train (eg for a friend)?
Or is the time stated a time the tickets were purchased rather than the time of travel.

The price listed is the cost of the Anytime Single fare which is what they will seek to recover. They won't give you any credit for the value of the tickets you did purchase.

So the question is, did you buy multiple tickets.....

 

[Verbena]

Thank you so much for all of your replies. I didn't buy multiple tickets and so I referred this back to the prosecutions department, querying the multiple charges. In fact it turned out to be an admin error and they have removed the 'duplicate' journeys, reducing my fine to £524. I'm so glad I queried it and didn't just pay the £726 - I'm a bit shocked they would make such an error. The fares I am paying for come to £270 (as 30907 stated), the admin costs are £104 and the case processing costs are £150. I do begrudge paying admin costs when they messed the admin up and nearly overcharged me by quite a lot - but on the other hand, it was my mistake in the first place to use an out of date railcard!

 

[swt_passenger]

Thank you so much for all of your replies. I didn't buy multiple tickets and so I referred this back to the prosecutions department, querying the multiple charges. In fact it turned out to be an admin error and they have removed the 'duplicate' journeys, reducing my fine to £524. I'm so glad I queried it and didn't just pay the £726 - I'm a bit shocked they would make such an error. The fares I am paying for come to £270 (as 30907 stated), the admin costs are £104 and the case processing costs are £150. I do begrudge paying admin costs when they messed the admin up and nearly overcharged me by quite a lot - but on the other hand, it was my mistake in the first place to use an out of date railcard!

That’s a partially good result, well done. You may be interested that a new discussion about the justification for such a large admin and costs total is underway here:

Discussion About Excessively High Admin Fees

Moderator Note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/any-advice-sizable-fine-for-an-out-of-date-railcard.255685/ That does seem high for an admin fee (is this perhaps not a first offence? They're usually around £100) but your option is to pay it or go to Court, and the likely...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[furlong]

Well you could still justifiably ask for more clarity over the distinction between 'admin' and 'case processing' (whether or not you pay what they ask immediately) and how they are calculated as they also seem rather high and as you've already discovered one mistake - perhaps elements of those have been misattributed?

 

[Verbena]

I thought I would give you the final outcome, as it might be of interest. I requested a reduction in the admin fees given the fact that an error had been made. My revised fine is now £270 (fares avoided) and £120 for operational and admin costs, so £390 altogether. This seems fair to me and I'm happy with the outcome.

 

[island]

Thank you for letting us know and glad you got sorted.

 

[WesternLancer]

I thought I would give you the final outcome, as it might be of interest. I requested a reduction in the admin fees given the fact that an error had been made. My revised fine is now £270 (fares avoided) and £120 for operational and admin costs, so £390 altogether. This seems fair to me and I'm happy with the outcome.

Well done for pursuing it - not an easy call to make when you have the risk of them 'getting heavy' and prosecuting, but seems to me to show that reasonable engagement on your part perhaps brought about a more reasonable response from the railway. I think this is the sort of thing other people might be able to find useful if their circs are similar to yours.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well done for pursuing it - not an easy call to make when you have the risk of them 'getting heavy' and prosecuting, but seems to me to show that reasonable engagement on your part perhaps brought about a more reasonable response from the railway. I think this is the sort of thing other people might be able to find useful if their circs are similar to yours.

Even now though, SWR’s admin fee has only been brought down to a more typical value, a wide variety of incidents resulting in out of court settlements in this forum include admin fees around about the £100 mark. The original amount of £254 split into separate admin and operational parts is relatively unusual, I think.

 

[Trainupset95]

Hi! Similar situation- by fares avoided does that mean you had to repay the full price for every journey you made? Or did you pay the difference that you saved when you used the expired railcard? Similar thing happened to me and I am wondering if it will be pay the difference or pay the whole fares all over again! Thanks

 

[Mzzzs]

Hi! Similar situation- by fares avoided does that mean you had to repay the full price for every journey you made? Or did you pay the difference that you saved when you used the expired railcard? Similar thing happened to me and I am wondering if it will be pay the difference or pay the whole fares all over again! Thanks

Hi, since we tend to find no two situations are identical, it would be best if you created your own thread.