Confirmed : HS2 West Midlands-Manchester line to be scrapped and replaced with other projects.

[Parjon]

Working in Government l've seen how things are getting worse by the day.

A bad workman always blames his tools. At least I know who to aim my complaints about how things are to now.

 

[Wolfie]

A bad workman always blames his tools. At least I know who to aim my complaints about how things are to now.

Funny how Rishi et al always try to blame the CS and wider public sector for their failings..... some might say tool indeed!

 

[Brush 4]

The media with their lack of railway knowledge, have missed out on the irony of the announcement in Manchester. Although some mentioned that the conference was in an old station, (one person called it a railway hall), they missed the bigger irony. Cancelling the Manchester HS2 in Manchester, in the former Manchester Central station, the northern terminus of the Midland line from St Pancras, the terminus of HS1! Irony Central. You couldn't make it up, except that they did.

 

[Parjon]

To be fair, I'd have more faith in Johnson delivering this sort of package. He did have some success with the new stations fund, reversing Beeching programmes.

I think that's true. It needs bullish leadership to get some things done. But then you look at how the machinery of government didn't like that, and ended up forcing him out. I don't think the politicians are so much the problem, versus those who "work in government" and blow all the cash on delivering very little. Smaller projects under more localised control have greater chance of escaping that.

 

[Arkeeos]

I think that's true. It needs bullish leadership to get some things done. But then you look at how the machinery of government didn't like that, and ended up forcing him out. I don't think the politicians are so much the problem, versus those who "work in government" and blow all the cash on delivering very little. Smaller projects under more localised control have greater chance of escaping that.

The Edinburgh tram is great example!

 

[yorksrob]

I think that's true. It needs bullish leadership to get some things done. But then you look at how the machinery of government didn't like that, and ended up forcing him out. I don't think the politicians are so much the problem, versus those who "work in government" and blow all the cash on delivering very little. Smaller projects under more localised control have greater chance of escaping that.

I think that there's definitely an argument for more devolution to the regions.

 

[Wolfie]

I think that's true. It needs bullish leadership to get some things done. But then you look at how the machinery of government didn't like that, and ended up forcing him out. I don't think the politicians are so much the problem, versus those who "work in government" and blow all the cash on delivering very little. Smaller projects under more localised control have greater chance of escaping that.

The machinery of government operates with checks and balances, intended to ensure proper expenditure of public money, put in place by none other than politicians.

The Permanent Secretary of each government department, in his role of principle accounting officer, is obliged to give an annual report on expenditure to Parliament.

If you really believe that HMT and DfT will, or indeed legally can, permit your "smaller projects under localised control" to evade all of that..... the NAO would be all over it. Let's just say that it isn't going to happen.

 

[BAFRA77]

Not sure if it's been mentioned previously - it has emerged the HS2 announcement yesterday was made without consulting the cabinet, parliament, local councils or Network Rail - just Sunak by himself.

 

[Arkeeos]

Not sure if it's been mentioned previously - it has emerged the HS2 announcement yesterday was made without consulting the cabinet, parliament, local councils or Network Rail - just Sunak by himself.

I mean thats obvious just by reading the document, its quite frankly one of the worst government documents I have ever read.

 

[chris11256]

Not sure if it's been mentioned previously - it has emerged the HS2 announcement yesterday was made without consulting the cabinet, parliament, local councils or Network Rail - just Sunak by himself.

There was a rubber stamping cabinet meeting on Wednesday morning to formally approve. But realistically any resistance wouldn't have been worth while, Sunak's distaste of public transport is fairly well known.

 

[irish_rail]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall this morning at Network Rail HQ as they discuss how on earth all this is supposed to be delivered, on top of the day job of holding the rest of the railway together. Absolute pie in the sky in my view....

 

[Bantamzen]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall this morning at Network Rail HQ as they discuss how on earth all this is supposed to be delivered, on top of the day job of holding the rest of the railway together. Absolute pie in the sky in my view....

They are going to need a lot of coffee, strong, black coffee!!

 

[21C101]

I doubt there is any serious intention to build most of the alternatives, its just announcing chaff that won't be done for years and so won't be in government spending figures any time soon.

This is the elephant in the room, bond yields are still rising on both sides of the atlantic and are well beyond anything we saw under Truss (on both sides of the atlantic)

Whoever wins the next election gets a hospital pass:

"Britain will spend 10.4% of total government revenue servicing its debts in 2023, Fitch has forecast, at a total of £110bn. Interest payments on a 12-month basis reached £117bn in May 2023, double the level in the period to September 2021" [and over three times the £38 Billion paid in 2018-19]

Source:

UK faces highest debt interest costs in developed world

The UK faces the highest debt interest bill in the developed world this year, according to Fitch Ratings, due to its high proportion of inflation-linked debt.

www.investmentweek.co.uk

 

[92002]

There is a need to shift people from plane to train for travelling between the Scotland and South of England to reduce CO2 emissions and the only practical way to substantially increase capacity on the trains is to use the two train paths an hour currently used by the AWC trains from London Euston to Glasgow to run 400 metre double set trains and dividing and joining them at Carlisle with one 200 metre set to Glasgow and one 200 metre set to Edinburgh as stated in Annex B of the 2020 full business case for High Speed Two phase one. Also can still run 400 metre trains to Birmingham with the High Speed Two Stations built as currently planned and it is possible that High Speed Two to Manchester could still be built at some point in the future. For all these reasons I would argue that all four High Speed Two Phase One stations including Euston should be built for 400 metre long trains. Scrapping HS2 phase two to Manchester may require there to be trains of different lengths, some 200 metre sets and some 250 metre sets, to make best use of High Speed Two capacity but this is a consequence of the Government's decision to scrap HS2 phase two to Manchester. I assume that to follow the plan in Annex B of the 2020 full business case they would have had to lengthen platforms at some stations on the West Coast Mainline so they should also look at lengthening platforms at some WCML stations.

Perhaps that's all part of the plan. Use HS2 sets as Pendolino replacements Most Glasgow trains are non stop from Warrington whilst the Edinburgh ones go via Birmingham and could use HS2.Offering shorter journey times.Same could easily apply to Liverpool and Manchester trains

 

[Sunday8pm]

So am I right in thinking the plan is to electrify the MML to Nottingham as currently in the works, but now to continue that on the Newark line to the northeast of Nottingham station? Is Newark Castle going to remain, or be bypassed with a new ECML connection to the west of Newark?

Is the idea here to improve Nottingham - Leeds but also relieve capacity on the M1 corridor route?

 

[hux385]

The amount of utter rubbish that has come out of this Tory conference is unbelievable. All they are aiming for is publicity through their empty promises and click-baity soundbites - and they don't seem to care about whether what they say is truthful or kind. They are obviously flailing and panicking with the upcoming election, and deservedly so, because they are completely incompetent.

They are trying to pit everyone against each other, whether that is North vs South, rail vs road users, striking staff vs commuters/patients/students, rich vs poor, native vs immigrant, cis vs trans, eco-concious vs greedy capitalists...

I don't believe that the current government has any kind of commitment to anything, whether that is these 'Network North' promises, or in fact any other kind of project/investment in any other sphere. The sooner they are gone the better.

 

[BrianW]

The expense of needless platinum plating for Manchester has always been at Liverpool's expense. You are quite right: the two mayors are to be told to negotiate the outcome. If Manchester wants to blow the £12bn on themselves, they'll have to convince us!

No doubt the Tory hope is that it splits the Burnham/rotheram axis. With any luck, we will actually get a sensible outcome. For once.

Ps. It's Liverpool city region mayor LCR and Merseyside are not coterminous.

Thank you for putting me straight, and gently I appreciate that wars have been fought over such differences.

 

[Cestrian21]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall this morning at Network Rail HQ as they discuss how on earth all this is supposed to be delivered, on top of the day job of holding the rest of the railway together. Absolute pie in the sky in my view....

I suspect the DfT are in a similar position, wondering what on earth they're meant to doing (if anything) with this cobbled together wish list.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

I suppose in the cold light of day people in Leeds / Manchester etc will prefer a regular service to their destination, that they can rely on and know that they will get a seat.

Would that desire be possible and still have completed HS2 with a better design/ control/ management of phase 1. I'd like to think yes.

 

[21C101]

I suspect the DfT are in a similar position, wondering what on earth they're meant to doing (if anything) with this cobbled together wish list.

Easy. Nothing other than put it in future as yet unfunded plans for the next 10-15 years and wait until the next government decides what to do (or more realistically the IMF decide what to do as none of the parties are willing to get state debt under control and would rather things get to the stage where the IMF do it for them and tbey can blame the IMF (now they can't do that with the EU anymore).

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

There was a rubber stamping cabinet meeting on Wednesday morning to formally approve. But realistically any resistance wouldn't have been worth while, Sunak's distaste of public transport is fairly well known.

I think you've added the word transport!

 

[reddragon]

His speech reminded me of a scene in Die Hard where the Hans Gruber is demanding the release of various terrorists as a cover to his heist, some very obscure & 1 made up to delay & confuse the police.

Seems that posters on this thread have fallen into that trap! We have a lame duck Government so hell bent on survival that they are just making stuff up. Their Heist is to win another election when fools believe their lies, whilst you all discuss schemes pulled out of a hat to win votes but will never get delivered or delayed forever as always.

If they were at all serious, full discussion would have gone on in the background with those who know but they didn't. HS2 has sky rocketed in price due to endless political interference, changes and all risks being outsourced so that the deliverers take no risks & elevate the costs dramatically. Their hair brained list, whilst nice, is no more than a bet on black to beat red, that's it. Large Civils projects take years to plan & deliver, so like with other recent policies this just bats things into the future so nobody can accuse them of inaction.

I vote for re-opening the Great Central in Full, now that announcement would have kept a few of you happy until realisation hit home

 

[87electric]

Happens in Tokyo 30 times an hour

Quite. I’ve experienced efficiency on Shinkansen every time I’ve travelled. No fuss, just, well.. efficient.
This country is just dropping like an ideological stone to the bottom. And it will matter not who resides as the elected party. Growth is not on the agenda.

 

[BAFRA77]

There was a rubber stamping cabinet meeting on Wednesday morning to formally approve. But realistically any resistance wouldn't have been worth while, Sunak's distaste of public transport is fairly well known.

That seems to be the case:

Mark Harper, the transport secretary, has had to explain this morning why No 10 kept telling us all that no decision about HS2 had been taken when Sunak had already recorded a video announcing it.

Downing Street posted a video from Sunak justifying the decision on X (formerly Twitter) at 1.18pm yesterday. It was filmed in Downing Street, and even with the most brilliant high-speed rail in the world, or one of his helicopters, he would not have been able to get there that quickly after his speech in Manchester at noon. It was recorded in advance.

On Monday No 10 issued a statement saying no final decision had been taken, and Jeremy Hunt, the chancellor, insisted on Tuesday that, still, no formal decision had been taken. Sunak was claiming the same day that he wanted to take his time, and would not be rushed.

 

[sharpener]

That seems to be the case:

Mark Harper, the transport secretary, has had to explain this morning why No 10 kept telling us all that no decision about HS2 had been taken when Sunak had already recorded a video announcing it.

To say nothing of the fact that although the various papers on .gov.uk look like the work of schoolboys they would still have taken a good 48 hours to work up.

 

[mpthomson]

Extremely depressing news - many other countries in Europe (Germany, Italy, Spain, France, Switzerland) plus even much poorer countries than the UK (Indonesia, Morocco) are managing to build high speed rail lines, why can't we?

Just another example of the decline of this country under the Tories, if I were a betting man I'd put my money on the other projects announced today never materialising as well... well, except the road related ones, since the Tories seem to love cars and hate the environment so much.

Also, if HS2 was costing so much, how can they justify spending the money on other projects anyway? It's why it makes me think that the money will never appear for these other projects, as they're just trying to cut out a big budget item and pretend that they'll totally spend the money on others instead (when the reality is they don't care as the spending commitments for these projects are probably after the next election).

Feels like outright sabotage, bet they'll be quick about selling off the land acquired for HS2 as well to make sure that Labour can't restart it if they get elected.

There was an interesting article in the Telegraph a few days ago looking into why the UK struggles with big infra projects and why they’re always late and over budget. They compared the UK to France and a good part of the delay relates to how France plc view personal land/ property etc.

One of the people interviewed was the French minister who oversaw a lot of the TGV line building and he was asked how they dealt with public consultation/objections. His response was (and these words are an exact translation) ‘You don’t talk to the frogs when draining a swamp’.

That’s just accepted in France for historic reasons and their system of govt, national psyche etc. If the state wants to build something then it just does. You can imagine how that approach would go down in the UK…

Suprisingly Keir Stamer did not directly react to Rishi's speech. And most Labour senior members keep quiet on HS2.

I don’t think it’s a surprise at all. He’s probably rather relieved as it stops him having to try to find the money for HS2 phase 2 if Labour is elected, as seems likely.

I suspect there’s almost no chance of him reinstating it even if the current govt hadn’t sold the land.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall this morning at Network Rail HQ as they discuss how on earth all this is supposed to be delivered, on top of the day job of holding the rest of the railway together.

Yes it’s been, ahem, interesting.

They are going to need a lot of coffee, strong, black coffee!!

White coffee, but yes. Third cup already.

 

[Danfilm007]

White coffee, but yes. Third cup already.

With this much caffeine in you, surely you can figure out a way to scope me some new lifts at Northwich...!

 

[fandroid]

The massive wish-list that replaces both northern legs of HS2 looks fairly attractive at first glance. However, it has one fundamental flaw above the usual ones of having had no real analysis for value or practicality. That flaw is that those schemes all assumed that HS2 provided the better links from the West Midlands, to East Midlands, Yorkshire and Lancashire.

The eastern leg, which was for some reason the first to go, was the one which would have provided the most fundamental uplift to transport of all of HS2, including the bit that's being built.

Fingers crossed that sanity will prevail and a return to the "inefficient" BR's strategies of Total Route Upgrades will transform travel in the way which HS2 was supposed to do

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

There was an interesting article in the Telegraph a few days ago looking into why the UK struggles with big infra projects and why they’re always late and over budget. They compared the UK to France and a good part of the delay relates to how France plc view personal land/ property

I don’t think it’s a surprise at all. He’s probably rather relieved as it stops him having to try to find the money for HS2 phase 2 if Labour is elected, as seems likely.

I suspect there’s almost no chance of him reinstating it even if the current govt hadn’t sold the land.

Quite , given that Labour gave the Conservatives the hospital pass in 2010 he's probably wary about going in for the tackle !