What can you do if somebody sits on your booked seat ?

[Lurcheroo]

What an awful idea. When I am with the lads going on a day out there may be four of us or eight of us, but we want to sit together around a table. If its a busy Saturday and we are not getting on the train at its very first station, we need to be able to reserve these table seats.

This is an issue I still have on services with no reservations.
“There’s no seats”
Yes there is, the trains not even half full, what they really mean is there’s not two tables next to next free so we can all sit together.
On a Saturday when everyone’s off out for the night, you couldn’t have enough coaches and tables for everyone to get it as they wish.

 

[43096]

I don't think it would be a bad idea to limit the automatic issuing of reservations to Advance tickets only, seeing as many people on flexible tickets won't necessarily travel on their reserved train.

I disagree. I would abolish reservations on advance tickets - it cannot be right that those on the highest fares have least chance of getting a seat.

Instead, I’d introduce “guaranteed seat” which would be a chargeable extra and would have a “reserved seat”. The fee would be waived for groups such as disabled, pregnant, elderly etc.

 

[noddingdonkey]

I'd be baffled if I had a reservation, wanted to sit there, and was told it can't be enforced. If I'm being prevented from sitting at all, then I think a 1st class seat is many people's expectation of good customer service.

This may be apocryphal but there is a story which does the rounds on social media from time to time of a passenger in this situation telling the Guard that they would go find a seat in First Class.

On being told that he couldn't do that, the passenger reminded the Guard that he had just admitted he had no means to stop him from doing so.

Not sure if ever happened or how it ended if it did.

 

[40fan]

Around 30 years ago I was on a HST travelling from Derby to Luton. After Leicester the guard came through my coach with a couple. I was sitting at a bay of four with a table. The guard rudely told me to move so that two people could sit there. When asked why he said these passengers had reserved seats and someone was already sitting them. I politly told him where to go, and added that he may want to move the people in the reserved seats in the first place. The maddening thing about it was that the train was very lightly loaded.

 

[TheSmiths82]

This has happened to me several times, but in every case the passenger politely gave up their seat. I have also sat in reserved seats, but only if it looks like they haven't turned up and also knowing that I may very well be told to shift in a minutes time. I have found that the reserved seat next to mine is only usually taken up about half of the time, so I assume they just don't turn up or don't use their reserved seat.

 

[Falcon1200]

As has been explained already by @yorkie the primary responsibility of a conductor or train manager is safety.

Yes - when necessary! But when a train is proceeding normally, there is no reason for a Guard not to walk through their train and assist passengers, who after all are the reason for the train running in the first place. It is especially important on a journey like mine, where passengers have been inconvenienced by the cancellation of the previous train and gross overcrowding on this one, with many unable to find a seat despite having reservations.

But, to be fair, that was a rare example and in my experience the vast majority of on-train staff do indeed carry out their duties in exemplary fashion.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Yes - when necessary! But when a train is proceeding normally, there is no reason for a Guard not to walk through their train and assist passengers, who after all are the reason for the train running in the first place. It is especially important on a journey like mine, where passengers have been inconvenienced by the cancellation of the previous train and gross overcrowding on this one, with many unable to find a seat despite having reservations.

But, to be fair, that was a rare example and in my experience the vast majority of on-train staff do indeed carry out their duties in exemplary fashion.

I did give a possible, and only possible, explanation as to why but there are loads of possible reasons why they may not come through, they could be caught up dealing with something else entirely, but again 2 hours is just a very long time to not seen them for that to seem reasonable.

If you had severe overcrowding then that would more likely explain it. If the train is full and standing then almost no guard would push through the crowds of people, it’s just not worth it unfortunately.

 

[Goldfish62]

If a train is grossly overcrowded (ie Cross Country) and it's inevitable that someone will be sat in my seat I will resign myself to standing until a seat becomes available. One reason why I try to avoid Cross Country for long journeys. It doesn't help on the Voyagers that the reservation screen cannot be viewed from the seat to which it applies.

 

[al78]

I disagree. I would abolish reservations on advance tickets - it cannot be right that those on the highest fares have least chance of getting a seat.

Instead, I’d introduce “guaranteed seat” which would be a chargeable extra and would have a “reserved seat”. The fee would be waived for groups such as disabled, pregnant, elderly etc.

Fares and seating have no correlation. Paying a fare is paying to be transported, not to guarentee being able to sit down whilst being transported. Those on the highest fares have the choice to reserve a seat and thus give themselves an equal chance of getting a seat as someone who has paid an advance fare, so the it's-unfair argument doesn't hold whichever way you look at it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fares and seating have no correlation. Paying a fare is paying to be transported, not to guarentee being able to sit down whilst being transported. Those on the highest fares have the choice to reserve a seat and thus give themselves an equal chance of getting a seat as someone who has paid an advance fare, so the it's-unfair argument doesn't hold whichever way you look at it.

Interestingly TfW/Arriva used to have a policy whereby they'd issue reservations on walk up fares and counted places on Advances, so at least someone thought it should relate to the fare paid.

 

[thaitransit]

This is easily fixed. Make all long distance trains compulsory reservations. Everyone on the train will have an allocated seat and no standing passengers. Train full! Bad luck book on another train! Simple more comfortable journeys and those on board the train happy. Those who don't book in advance will learn the hard way.

 

[skyhigh]

This is easily fixed. Make all long distance trains compulsory reservations. Everyone on the train will have an allocated seat and no standing passengers. Train full! Bad luck book on another train! Simple more comfortable journeys and those on board the train happy. Those who don't book in advance will learn the hard way.

Glad you think that's an easy solution. The simple truth is that is not the way UK trains operate and there would be significant opposition to this change.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is easily fixed. Make all long distance trains compulsory reservations. Everyone on the train will have an allocated seat and no standing passengers. Train full! Bad luck book on another train! Simple more comfortable journeys and those on board the train happy. Those who don't book in advance will learn the hard way.

People often sit in the wrong seat on compulsory reservation trains e.g. Eurostar and refuse to move. So CR doesn't solve "I booked this table and that guy's sat there with his laptop and refusing to move, and the only other seats involve our family of 4 sitting across 4 coaches".

People sometimes even board them without a reservation and take a seat - if staff are reluctant to simply ask someone to move, are they going to enforce that unless an RPI gang gets on?

Crikey, you must surely have read about enough cases of people stealing others' seats on aircraft and refusing to move? It happens all the time, and aircraft are *properly* CR with no way of getting on board without being booked on.

 

[thaitransit]

Glad you think that's an easy solution. The simple truth is that is not the way UK trains operate and there would be significant opposition to this change.

Are people in the UK that lazy they can't go on the train companies website and book a ticket which comes with a seat reservation? Can't use the internet? call up the booking office or travel to a local station the day or 2 prior to book in person. Some trains in Queensland you have to book weeks in advance just to get a ticket. Eg Brisbane to Cairns trains. But people accept this and book well in advance.

People often sit in the wrong seat on compulsory reservation trains e.g. Eurostar and refuse to move. So CR doesn't solve "I booked this table and that guy's sat there with his laptop and refusing to move, and the only other seats involve our family of 4 sitting across 4 coaches".

People sometimes even board them without a reservation and take a seat - if staff are reluctant to simply ask someone to move, are they going to enforce that unless an RPI gang gets on?

The onboard staff normally deal with this and if they can't the police will meet the train at next station and the "Arsehole Passenger" will be removed from the train.

 

[1D54]

Are people in the UK that lazy they can't go on the train companies website and book a ticket which comes with a seat reservation? Can't use the internet? call up the booking office or travel to a local station the day or 2 prior to book in person. Some trains in Queensland you have to book weeks in advance just to get a ticket. Eg Brisbane to Cairns trains. But people accept this and book well in advance.

The onboard staff normally deal with this and if they can't the police will meet the train at next station and the "Arsehole Passenger" will be removed from the train.

Are you being serious? The Police are having a hard enough time of it already and what are the chances of them turning up for such a minor matter.

How many long distance trains do you use to believe that compulsory reservations will work?

 

[thaitransit]

Are you being serious? The Police are having a hard enough time of it already and what are the chances of them turning up for such a minor matter.

How many long distance trains do you use to believe that compulsory reservations will work?

They will turn up for on train issues. These issues tend to become violent very quickly.

The police in NSW take it seriously now due to a horrific incident in 2013 where a passenger was attacking staff and the police failed to attend and that resulted in that passenger was killed by onboard staff as to protect the rest of the passengers due to police inaction to what they felt were minor issues. The inquest fully blamed the police and the railway staff were found to have dealt with it the best they could with zero outside help. The result of this is all staff on NSW Trainlink have body cameras now and the police must attend all on train matters urgently and the police can be pulled off other jobs eg highway patrol etc to make sure its done.

As to compulsory reservations they work fine on all NSW Trainlink services and Queensland Rail's long distance trains. So no idea what the problem is with booking and reserving a seat in advance. You have to book the hotel in advance so why not the train too.

 

[skyhigh]

Are people in the UK that lazy they can't go on the train companies website and book a ticket which comes with a seat reservation? Can't use the internet? call up the booking office or travel to a local station the day or 2 prior to book in person. Some trains in Queensland you have to book weeks in advance just to get a ticket. Eg Brisbane to Cairns trains. But people accept this and book well in advance.

Why should you have to?

"Those who don't book in advance will learn the hard way" - you mean those on the most expensive, revenue generating tickets?

Let's say I need flexibility due to a meeting so book an Anytime Single from King's Cross to Edinburgh, £193.90. I book a seat reservation for a train that is hopefully suitable but the meeting starts late - there are no seats left on later trains that day but I still need to travel. Your answer to that would be "Train full! Bad luck book on another train!"?

What about if your train was cancelled due to a fault, but all the later trains were fully booked. What do you do then? Push all the passengers onto a train the next day?

The fact is that the majority of UK rail, even long distance, is somewhat turn-up-and-go. The distances involved are nothing like Australia. It destroys the advantage of UK rail that if you buy a flexible ticket you have the freedom to travel whenever you want. The railway should be encouraging people to use it, not turn them away through a complete lack of flexibility.

Not to mention this doesn't solve people sitting in the wrong seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The onboard staff normally deal with this and if they can't the police will meet the train at next station and the "Arsehole Passenger" will be removed from the train.

Perhaps that's what happens in Australia, but it's not what happens here.

 

[skyhigh]

They will turn up for on train issues.

Lovely that they might do in Australia, but we're talking about the UK here. They are significantly overstretched and won't turn up to remove passengers who don't have a reservation.

that resulted in that passenger was killed by onboard staff as to protect the rest of the passengers

Back on planet Earth no rail staff in the UK will be killing any passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As to compulsory reservations they work fine on all NSW Trainlink services and Queensland Rail's long distance trains. So no idea what the problem is with booking and reserving a seat in advance. You have to book the hotel in advance so why not the train too.

You don't have to book a car journey in advance, though. That's what UK rail is competing with primarily, I don't know about Oz.

Back on planet Earth no rail staff in the UK will be killing any passengers.

Do traincrew carry guns in Oz?

 

[Llanigraham]

This is easily fixed. Make all long distance trains compulsory reservations. Everyone on the train will have an allocated seat and no standing passengers. Train full! Bad luck book on another train! Simple more comfortable journeys and those on board the train happy. Those who don't book in advance will learn the hard way.

What happens to people who haven't booked and are "turn up and go" passengers?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What happens to people who haven't booked and are "turn up and go" passengers?

In most countries, they are sold a ticket up to the point that all seats are reserved, at which point they are turned away, as would happen if you turned up for a coach, flight, hotel, theatre performance, gig or whatever without having booked.

It has downsides (particularly in effectiveness at competing with the car), but it's certainly a practical way of operating, as most things where there's limited capacity work that way, so any argument of non-viability is flawed by definition.

 

[zero]

I hate compulsory reservations.

After reading @TT-ONR-NRN's excellent trip report on his experience of long distance trains in Australia I can say that I will be flying rather than taking the train when I travel around Australia next year (as part of my permanent move to that country).

I have also avoided the high speed trains in the Romance countries in favour of the German-speaking countries for this reason.

 

[Bletchleyite]

After reading @TT-ONR-NRN's excellent trip report on his experience of long distance trains in Australia I can say that I will be flying rather than taking the train when I travel around Australia next year (as part of my permanent move to that country).

Flying has compulsory reservations too, you know. If you don't like them hiring a car and driving is your best bet.

 

[thaitransit]

What about if your train was cancelled due to a fault, but all the later trains were fully booked. What do you do then? Push all the passengers onto a train the next day?

Generally if the train is cancelled the passengers are either put on road coaches to replace the cancelled service or if available moved to a later service which can be the next day! If your in a hurry or have no where to stay you get the road coach.

The fact is that the majority of UK rail, even long distance, is somewhat turn-up-and-go. The distances involved are nothing like Australia. It destroys the advantage of UK rail that if you buy a flexible ticket you have the freedom to travel whenever you want. The railway should be encouraging people to use it, not turn them away through a complete lack of flexibility.

Yes the distance is probably further in Australia. Most Queensland Rail long distance trains require overnight travel on board. Eg Brisbane to Cairns is 25 hours by train. The shortest train they operate is Brisbane to Bundaberg at about 4 hours 30 minutes. So almost all journeys are not day return travel.

Do traincrew carry guns in Oz?

No we have very strict gun laws. The only place you see armed staff are the "PSO guards" at Victorian train stations but these are part of the police force and there are more than 1000 of them.

In most countries, they are sold a ticket up to the point that all seats are reserved, at which point they are turned away, as would happen if you turned up for a coach, flight, hotel, theatre performance, gig or whatever without having booked.

Yes this is the norm in every country I have visited or lived in. You book something and once its sold out you miss out. Weather its a train, a show or a hotel.

 

[skyhigh]

Generally if the train is cancelled the passengers are either put on road coaches to replace the cancelled service or if available moved to a later service which can be the next day!

Great.

Whereas with the current system I could just jump on the next train in 30 mins and potentially find a vacant seat where the reservation holder hasn't turned up. Rather than waiting about for hours until a replacement bus has been found then spending double the journey time on a bus.

Yes the distance is probably further in Australia. Most Queensland Rail long distance trains require overnight travel on board. Eg Brisbane to Cairns is 25 hours by train. The shortest train they operate is Brisbane to Bundaberg at about 4 hours 30 minutes.

Probably further in Australia? Do you know the UK network at all? You're talking about something that is completely different to the UK. The longest end-to-end train in the UK takes 13 hours (Aberdeen to Penzance) - and the number of people who take the whole journey will be tiny.

Compare that to the common long-distance journeys e.g. Euston to Manchester at 2hrs15, Kings Cross to Edinburgh at 4hrs30 or London to York at under 2hrs and you will see why compulsory reservations may work in Australia but wouldn't be suitable in the UK where the distances are much smaller.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think most people would accept that having standees on long distance overnight trains is undesirable. And indeed the Caledonian Sleeper has compulsory reservations.

(Nominally the Night Riviera does too, but there's a huge surplus of seats on that so in practice it doesn't, it's more like Avanti-esque fake compulsory, whereas with the CS if you rock up to the train without one you will be turned away whether any are free or not).

 

[greyman42]

Generally if the train is cancelled the passengers are either put on road coaches to replace the cancelled service or if available moved to a later service which can be the next day! If your in a hurry or have no where to stay you get the road coach.

Are these road coaches readily available for cancellations?

 

[AlterEgo]

Are people in the UK that lazy they can't go on the train companies website and book a ticket which comes with a seat reservation? Can't use the internet? call up the booking office or travel to a local station the day or 2 prior to book in person. Some trains in Queensland you have to book weeks in advance just to get a ticket. Eg Brisbane to Cairns trains. But people accept this and book well in advance.

I don't think we should model our trains over what you have in Queensland.

Passengers in the UK expect an always-available, turn up and go railway and that's what gets delivered. Britain is not Australia.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think we should model our trains over what you have in Queensland.

Passengers in the UK expect an always-available, turn up and go railway and that's what gets delivered. Britain is not Australia.

Are Aussie IC trains three times an hour?

Manchester-London is. That's a metro style service which very much lends itself to flexibility.

And if the trains often end up full that's inadequate capacity which is bad in and of itself. CR works fine in many European countries, but they do put the capacity out there and so trains are mostly not full even on the day.