2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[21C101]

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[RailWonderer]

Israel exists because Palestine was a British dependancy under a mandate and at that time, nobody in Palestine asked the pre-UN international community for sovereignty and recognition (the League of Nations in the interwar years) By 1947 when the Brits pulled out, it was too late.

If Hamas weren’t terrorists, they’d bomb the empty new housing developments at night, the ones under construction on the West Bank where no civilians are about making the act sabotage rather than terrorism. That way they aren’t deliberately killing civilians.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

As I understand it, the US supports a two state solution.
But they say that the borders should be negotiated between the two sides, rather than just reverting to pre-1967.

I seem to recall Trump tried to change that, as he was currying favour with the Bible Belt extremists in his own country for votes. Many of them, incidentally, hold a radical belief that the successful re-establishment of a Jewish temple on the site currently occupied by the Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem will signify the Second Coming and bring about biblical Armageddon (which in their eyes is a good thing.) What he ended up giving them was a compromise, the US moved its embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem to effectively signify that it was being recognised as the capital of a unified Jewish state.

I would be worried about a second Trump presidency in this current Middle Eastern environment.

 

[GS250]

The lastest Israeli casualties are 600 dead and 100 hostages and still rising.

That compares with between 776-983 Israelis killed in the 1967 Six Day War.

The difference being that this time the vast majority of those killed were civilians.

I think it is fair to say that the merde is going to hit the fan shortly. Frankly I wouldn't put Netanyahu past nuking Tehran.

Israel's nuclear capability has always been something of a mystery. However, I very much doubt they would use it against Iran unless Iranian forces were directly targeting civilian targets in Israel.

Either way some of the anti-semitic behaviour I've seen in the UK this weekend (witnessed first hand in London today) does not bode well if this conflict escalates.

 

[Mogster]

Israel's nuclear capability has always been something of a mystery.

If I was in a similar position to the Israelis I’d be happy for my enemies to think I had underground bunkers stuffed with nuclear weapons. Even if I didn’t. Tbh I’d be more surprised if they didn’t have them.

The rumours persist that nukes were airborne during Yom Kippur in 1973. Golda Meir phoning Nixon asking for supplies, telling him they were going to use the nukes if things continued going badly, the supplies then being rapidly authorised.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

For as long as Israel does not allow Palestine to exist as an independent state, there will be no end.

For as long as the organisation in charge of the Palestinian territories refuses to compromise on the "two state" solution, there will be no end.

There aren't good guys and bad guys in this one, Israel has done some pretty horrible things in the past, and has breached prior agreements over settlements in the West Bank. However the Palestinian authorities aren't innocent either. Hamas is a banned organisation in the UK and has committed many terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. They also hide their militants among schools and hospitals, putting their own people in harm's way for the propaganda value. They may have been democratically elected, but I note that rather conveniently no elections have been held since.

In this latest flare-up, the Palestinians (specifically Hamas, aided by their Iranian paymasters) have been the instigators. Israel is well within its rights to respond in kind.

 

[Meerkat]

Israel can not afford to have a fully independent Palestinian state any more - it’s just a huge existential risk.
There would have to be decades of democratic moderate Palestinian governments that weren’t puppets of Iran and militant Islam before they could be trusted. Israel is tiny, the gap between Gaza and the West Bank is 30km, from the West Bank to Tel Aviv waterfront 20km. They could Be cut in half by an armoured attack before they had chance to respond.

 

[Cloud Strife]

When people say that Palestine should become an independent state (and I agree they should have their own land), does this mean the current State of Palestine, or the more historical Palestine borders which cover all of current Israel?

I'm personally supportive of a four state, not two state solution. I would give Gaza independence as a separate state, because with a young population that is technologically literate, they have the potential to become a thriving city state. It would also mean not having to solve the problem of connecting the West Bank with Gaza, meaning that Israel doesn't have to worry about agreeing to transit routes.

Jerusalem itself should be under international rule, not Israeli or Palestinian. I'd go as far as saying that there's probably cause for creating a system where there would be Jewish and Palestinian sectors, but that access to the city would be controlled by the UN. There wouldn't be free access from either Israel or the new West Bank state, unless both states agreed otherwise.

 

[rapmastaj]

The whole situation is an utter disaster. A two-state solution could have been nice, but sadly Israel action's in recent years - ramping up settlement building, increasing their control over the West Bank and changing the 'facts on the ground' - have effectively made this impossible.

The parallels with Apartheid South Africa where Blacks were forced to live in 'homelands' are so strong. Palestinians are split between those living in the West Bank, Gaza, Jerusalem, and Israel proper, with limited movement allowed between these zones, plus the 'security fence' and numerous checkpoints. Gaza suffers from the direst situation, but elsewhere for example, villages in areas like the Jordan Valley are systematically declared illegal and demolished; while in Jerusalem Palestinian houses are demolished one by one; the centre of one of the largest West Bank cities is off limits to Palestinians to protect a small number of Israeli settlers who live there; Palestinians living in Israel are denied the same constitutional rights as other Israelis...

Obviously none of this justifies the Hamas attack. I can see things getting a whole lot worse before there's any hope of improvement.

 

[Meerkat]

As with children who can’t share a toy peacefully maybe we should just demolish Jerusalem and turn it into a nice nature reserve!

 

[Coolzac]

Some of the comments here don't recognise one basic fact:
Palestinians have never accepted the right of Israel to even exist. Whilst I don't condone every action by Israel, they have been trying to deal with enemies all around ever since their creation. The mess has been created by the fact that the Palestinians(sometimes with outside support) have always wanted to expel the Jews. If Israel ever lost a war, it would be Holocaust number 2. Think I'm exaggerating? Look at what happened over the weekend. All civilians they could find were just murdered or kidnapped.

 

[renegademaster]

Palestinians have never accepted the right of Israel to even exist.

If Welsh people turned up in London telling everyone to up sticks because they lived their a 1000 years id expect them to get pretty resoundingly resented. But you are correct Israelis would be pretty suicidal to back track now and a 2nd Holocaust wouldn't be off the table

But also I can understand why Jews don't want to be a permanent minority and want to actually control their own destiny too. It's a tough question. Theirs been plenty of other proposed alternatives to where Israel could have been placed but they all run into the same fundamental problem that they'd be stepping on somebody else's feet instead, and in places they have no historical links

 

[Bluejays]

If Welsh people turned up in London telling everyone to up sticks because they lived their a 1000 years id expect them to get pretty resoundingly resented. But you are correct Israelis would be pretty suicidal to back track now and a 2nd Holocaust wouldn't be off the table

But also I can understand why Jews don't want to be a permanent minority and want to actually control their own destiny too. It's a tough question. Theirs been plenty of other proposed alternatives to where Israel could have been placed but they all run into the same fundamental problem that they'd be stepping on somebody else's feet instead, and in places they have no historical links

To be fair, the uprooting came after the conflicts started in and around partition. Jews were moving to Palestine initially and building new cities or buying up places. The local Arabs didn't like this of course and had a bit of a revolt about it. It wasn't just a case of turning up straight away and saying 'f off we're here now', although obviously a hell of a lot of that did occur once conflict started .

Also important to note that whats referred to as Palestine was a part of the ottoman empire. An empire that contained a lot of Jews, who were banned from moving to the areas around Jerusalem in large numbers, while lots of the Jewish immigration to Palestine was European Jews, lots was from Jews who'd always been citizens of the ottoman empire but now had the ability to move to palestine.

The original partition was also a '2 state solution'. The new Jewish state was happy with that, the Arabs weren't and invaded .

So while it is 100% correct to say that many hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were evicted from their land. It's certainly not the case that the Jews just rocked straight up, got off the boat and booted them out. A fair bit happened(at least half of it caused by the Arabs) to lead to that situation.

 

[rapmastaj]

The history is complicated but the key moments are very clear. Millions of Palestinians were forced to leave their homes in 1947 by violent means. They have never been allowed to return, and multiple generations have lived as refugees. Meanwhile someone like me, who has never even been to Israel, could choose to move there and become a citizen if I wanted to, simply because I am Jewish. The Israeli state is founded on racism as a state policy.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

For anyone who is interested to learn about the history of this part of the Middle East, the origins of today‘s conflicts and cultural clashes etc and (broadly speaking) the underlying reasons and who to blame - clue; it’s much closer to home than you might think! - I heartily recommend two very readable books by James Barr:

A Line In The Sand

Lords of the Desert

The first covers the late colonial period including the Sykes-Picot Agreement, rivalries between British and French interests, the ‘Lawrence’ story and periods through the World Wars. The second book takes the story forward to the post-WW2 period, the establishment of the Jewish state during the Truman era and the subsequent regional conflicts and their aftermaths. As an illustration of how external factors influenced the Palestine issue, the second book tells of how Truman’s decision to back the creation of Israel was done to win Zionist votes in a New York mayoral election which was seen as a bellwether for the following mid-terms. (How very Trumpian of him.) Britain was pressured into supporting it, thereby breaking various agreements with Arab leaders who had traditionally been our allies in the region. Meanwhile Israeli paramilitaries were already planning various attacks on British interests to push them out of the Mandate entirely. (I knew about the King David Hotel bombing but I never knew at least one bomb was actually detonated in the UK itself!)

 

[GusB]

Some of the comments here don't recognise one basic fact:
Palestinians have never accepted the right of Israel to even exist. Whilst I don't condone every action by Israel, they have been trying to deal with enemies all around ever since their creation. The mess has been created by the fact that the Palestinians(sometimes with outside support) have always wanted to expel the Jews. If Israel ever lost a war, it would be Holocaust number 2. Think I'm exaggerating? Look at what happened over the weekend. All civilians they could find were just murdered or kidnapped.

Is that a basic fact? I'm happy to agree the fact that some Palestinians don't accept the right of Israel to exist; I don't agree that all Palestinians think this way. For balance, not all Israelis are far right racists intent on wiping out the Palestinians, either. The extremism exists on both sides, but it only really makes the headlines when it's Palestinians are the so-called aggressors. Israeli aggression occurs regularly, but we just don't hear about it.

I'm appalled by the actions of Hamas, but let's not pretend that this is a one-sided conflict. Israel has blatantly flouted UN resolutions and has consistently managed to get away with it. It isn't challenged because we're so scared to be branded as anti-Semitic and to be labelled as sympathising with terrorists. We need to stop the othering and recognise that Palestinians are ordinary human beings who just want to get on with their lives.

 

[yorkie]

Some of the comments here don't recognise one basic fact:
Palestinians have never accepted the right of Israel to even exist. Whilst I don't condone every action by Israel, they have been trying to deal with enemies all around ever since their creation. The mess has been created by the fact that the Palestinians(sometimes with outside support) have always wanted to expel the Jews. If Israel ever lost a war, it would be Holocaust number 2. Think I'm exaggerating? Look at what happened over the weekend. All civilians they could find were just murdered or kidnapped.

Meanwhile you are clearly missing many 'basic' (!) facts

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Oct 2023 ==

The history is complicated but the key moments are very clear. Millions of Palestinians were forced to leave their homes in 1947 by violent means. They have never been allowed to return, and multiple generations have lived as refugees. Meanwhile someone like me, who has never even been to Israel, could choose to move there and become a citizen if I wanted to, simply because I am Jewish. The Israeli state is founded on racism as a state policy.

Well said!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Oct 2023 ==

Is that a basic fact? I'm happy to agree the fact that some Palestinians don't accept the right of Israel to exist; I don't agree that all Palestinians think this way. For balance, not all Israelis are far right racists intent on wiping out the Palestinians, either. The extremism exists on both sides, but it only really makes the headlines when it's Palestinians are the so-called aggressors. Israeli aggression occurs regularly, but we just don't hear about it.

I'm appalled by the actions of Hamas, but let's not pretend that this is a one-sided conflict. Israel has blatantly flouted UN resolutions and has consistently managed to get away with it. It isn't challenged because we're so scared to be branded as anti-Semitic and to be labelled as sympathising with terrorists. We need to stop the othering and recognise that Palestinians are ordinary human beings who just want to get on with their lives.

Very true

 

[Noddy]

The history is complicated but the key moments are very clear. Millions of Palestinians were forced to leave their homes in 1947 by violent means. They have never been allowed to return, and multiple generations have lived as refugees. Meanwhile someone like me, who has never even been to Israel, could choose to move there and become a citizen if I wanted to, simply because I am Jewish. The Israeli state is founded on racism as a state policy.

As you say history is complicated. But it should be pointed out that in 1947 the Jewish leadership were in favour of the UN resolution that would have created the states of Israel and Palestine and a neutral Jerusalem. While we can never ever know what would have happened if the plan had been enacted, it would likely be very different to what has subsequently occurred.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Oct 2023 ==

I'm personally supportive of a four state, not two state solution. I would give Gaza independence as a separate state, because with a young population that is technologically literate, they have the potential to become a thriving city state. It would also mean not having to solve the problem of connecting the West Bank with Gaza, meaning that Israel doesn't have to worry about agreeing to transit routes.

Jerusalem itself should be under international rule, not Israeli or Palestinian. I'd go as far as saying that there's probably cause for creating a system where there would be Jewish and Palestinian sectors, but that access to the city would be controlled by the UN. There wouldn't be free access from either Israel or the new West Bank state, unless both states agreed otherwise.

I absolutely agree with this. Geographic partition of Palestine might have worked in 1947 (however notably it didn’t with Pakistan) but today a single Palestinian state is very unlikely to survive given that the last 70 years (basically a lifetime) have driven geopolitical divides within Palestine that are not going to be easily resolved and healed.

 

[Coolzac]

Is that a basic fact? I'm happy to agree the fact that some Palestinians don't accept the right of Israel to exist; I don't agree that all Palestinians think this way. For balance, not all Israelis are far right racists intent on wiping out the Palestinians, either. The extremism exists on both sides, but it only really makes the headlines when it's Palestinians are the so-called aggressors. Israeli aggression occurs regularly, but we just don't hear about it.

I'm appalled by the actions of Hamas, but let's not pretend that this is a one-sided conflict. Israel has blatantly flouted UN resolutions and has consistently managed to get away with it. It isn't challenged because we're so scared to be branded as anti-Semitic and to be labelled as sympathising with terrorists. We need to stop the othering and recognise that Palestinians are ordinary human beings who just want to get on with their lives.

I'm happy to accept that some Palestinians accept the existence of Israel, but at the political level they never have, and have always tried to destroy Israel. In 1947 they could have just got on with their lives, but instead they fought a war to try and destroy Israel before it even got going.

Israel's aggression has always been a response to this backdrop. And this weekend, you see how much worse it would be if the Palestinians had the superior armed forces, rather than Israel. Whilst I don't support everything Israel does, if the shoe was on the other foot, Millions of Jews would be killed.

 

[Yew]

I'm happy to accept that some Palestinians accept the existence of Israel, but at the political level they never have, and have always tried to destroy Israel. In 1947 they could have just got on with their lives, but instead they fought a war to try and destroy Israel before it even got going.

Israel's aggression has always been a response to this backdrop. And this weekend, you see how much worse it would be if the Palestinians had the superior armed forces, rather than Israel. Whilst I don't support everything Israel does, if the shoe was on the other foot, Millions of Jews would be killed.

In 1914 the French could have just accepted the German annexation of the Rhineland, and got on with their lives.

 

[Coolzac]

In 1914 the French could have just accepted the German annexation of the Rhineland, and got on with their lives.

So you don't think Israel has a right to exist? I'm confused as to your point. Israel was formed out of the UN dividing Palestine, not by conquest.

 

[renegademaster]

So you don't think Israel has a right to exist? I'm confused as to your point. Israel was formed out of the UN dividing Palestine, not by conquest.

The 1948 partition plan was supposed to have consent from both sides, Britain never actually took any steps to implement it and just left and the Jews and Arabs fight it out . I can understand why Arabs didn't rush to accept it (if someone walked into your house, demanded half and you told him to go away you aren't the aggressor)

However also recognize Arab intransigence since is why they are in the state they are. If they accepted any numbers of the past offers they'd be in a much better position than they are today. Eventually they are going to have to admit they are militarily defeated.

 

[Bluejays]

260 shot at a music festival. Absolutely sick!

 

[yorkie]

260 shot at a music festival. Absolutely sick!

The deaths on both sides are totally unacceptable.

There are many more Palestinians dying through the course of this long running conflict than Israelis and the state of Israel does their best to ensure that perpetually remains the case, through retaliatory attacks.

 

[dakta]

You keep repeating that.

Let me repeat something too - 260 shot at a music festival. This wasn't collateral, this was the intended target.

 

[yorkie]

You keep repeating that.

Let me repeat something too - 260 shot at a music festival. This wasn't collateral, this was the intended target.

Yes you keep repeating that but it doesn't change the facts.

Do you deny that Israel will continually ensure that disproportionately more deaths will be inflicted for retaliation purposes?

Terrorist organisations are rightly condemned but no state should act in this way; this isn't defence, this is retaliation and oppression by a state.

By behaving in such a manner they are only going to increase the response from terrorists; it's completely counter productive and disgusting for any state to behave in such a way.

 

[Coolzac]

The deaths on both sides are totally unacceptable.

There are many more Palestinians dying through the course of this long running conflict than Israelis and the state of Israel does their best to ensure that perpetually remains the case, through retaliatory attacks.

The difference is, Israel tries it's best to limit civilian casualties. Hamas tries to actively kill as many civilians as they can.

 

[alex397]

Interestingly, Haaritz, which is Israel’s older newspaper and apparently well respected, is blaming the Israeli government. Good to see journalism that doesn’t just blindly follow the government. Although not particularly surprising considering it’s described as left wing, whereas the government is anything but.

I can only quote the first paragraphs as the rest is behind a paywall.
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/edi...sibility/0000018b-0b9d-d8fc-adff-6bfd1c880000

The disaster that befell Israel on the holiday of Simchat Torah is the clear responsibility of one person: Benjamin Netanyahu. The prime minister, who has prided himself on his vast political experience and irreplaceable wisdom in security matters, completely failed to identify the dangers he was consciously leading Israel into when establishing a government of annexation and dispossession, when appointing Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir to key positions, while embracing a foreign policy that openly ignored the existence and…..

 

[dakta]

Israel will defend itself, as it's entitled to do so, and because it's superior, there probably (but not certainly be more deaths).

That's what tends to happen when you shoot your neighbours civilians when your neighbour has a more organised and equipped army.

It is also correct to include the above, that Israel at least makes an effort to limit collateral, so there is some disparity between the two.

 

[Bluejays]

The deaths on both sides are totally unacceptable.

There are many more Palestinians dying through the course of this long running conflict than Israelis and the state of Israel does their best to ensure that perpetually remains the case, through retaliatory attacks.

Massacring 260 kids at a music festival is like shooting hippies at Glastonbury because you hate the Tories.

The are many shocking events that have occured at the hands of Israeli settlers in the west bank recently. If there'd been a thread on that I'd have expressed my revulsion, without feeling the need to try and ram some semi political point about equivalence down people's throat.