2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[yorkie]

Israel will defend itself, as it's entitled to do so, and because it's superior, there probably (but not certainly be more deaths).

That's what tends to happen when you shoot your neighbours civilians when your neighbour has a more organised and equipped army.

Israel goes well beyond "defence'; it retaliates disproportionately and breaches international law at will.

As for 'this is what tends to happen'; I'm sorry but that is exactly the sort of view that will perpetuate the war.

 

[alex397]

Massacring 260 kids at a music festival is like shooting hippies at Glastonbury because you hate the Tories.

Reading about this event is difficult. It sounds particularly horrific and brutal. I’m not sure I even want to repeat what is reported to have happened there, but it appears they did more than just kill people.
A music festival full of young people is probably going to have a lot of progressive types who support the Free Palastine movement, so that’s hardly going to increase support for their cause, and is evidence that Hamas may just want to get rid of Israelis completely.

 

[dakta]

It doesn't justify making no response when 260 of it's civilians are systematically killed.

I am not saying Israel has clean hands, but again - you poke the tiger in the eye.

And yes it's correct they did more than kill, there have been reports of naked bodies being paraded etc

As for 'this is what tends to happen'; I'm sorry but that is exactly the sort of view

It's not a view, it's a concept. Take an ill equipped force, go attack a large/more professional force's civillians and once it's all over count who comes off worst.

 

[Bluejays]

Interestingly, Haaritz, which is Israel’s older newspaper and apparently well respected, is blaming the Israeli government. Good to see journalism that doesn’t just blindly follow the government. Although not particularly surprising considering it’s described as left wing, whereas the government is anything but.

I can only quote the first paragraphs as the rest is behind a paywall.
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/edi...sibility/0000018b-0b9d-d8fc-adff-6bfd1c880000

His inviting in of the likes of smotrich and ben gvir is a stain on the history of Israel.

Interestingly I think the heads of the parties asked to join the 'unity government ' are making it dependent on these filth being removed. Hopefully they'll be successful.

 

[GS250]

Reading about this event is difficult. It sounds particularly horrific and brutal. I’m not sure I even want to repeat what is reported to have happened there, but it appears they did more than just kill people.
A music festival full of young people is probably going to have a lot of progressive types who support the Free Palastine movement, so that’s hardly going to increase support for their cause, and is evidence that Hamas may just want to get rid of Israelis completely.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Attack the very people that may be useful in influencing a more peaceful longer term solution. However without going off on a tangent too much, it also shows a wooly, naive outlook of those who plaster their social media channels with the usual banners. There are some people who you just can't mediate with. You have to either eliminate them or heavily contain them. Show them an inch of weakness and they will happily kill you if you don't fit their ideal. It's a sad fact of human nature that some groups want their way or nothing. Hammas fit this description well. As did ISIS when they decided to blow up/gun rampage through progressive parts of Paris.

I have to admit I'm genuinely concerned about this particular escalation though. Actually more so than what's happened in Ukraine.

 

[BananaRepublic]

…..And yes it's correct they did more than kill, there have been reports of naked bodies being paraded etc

It isn’t just reports, there a videos circulating on social media of the bodies of the kidnap victims being paraded and abused, with crowds cheering them on and chanting.
The fate of the German girl with dual Israeli nationality, is horrifying.
Seized with others from the festival, reportedly raped to death and then her naked body (since identified by the distinctive tattoos on her legs) has been shown being dragged around Gaza City with people spitting on her and behaving like deranged barbarians.

God knows what the fate of other captives will be.


Whatever deaths have been caused by Israeli action over the years, none of it has been as a result of the sort hate and barbarism we have witnessed over the last few days.

Whether Israel have acted disproportionately, out of revenge or retribution is one matter, the fact that those actions have mostly been spurred by acts of violence initiated or instigated by the Palestinian terrorist groups cannot be disputed.
Israel have treated the Palestinians population extremely badly, but most of those Palestinians deaths have been brought about by the actions of those movements that come from among their own people.


.

 

[Bluejays]

Sad to think that the Oslo accords are now 30yrs old. A hard negotiated roadmap for peace that was comprehensively derailed by the inflammatory words of Netanyahu and the suicide bombs of Hamas.
Even sadder to think that 30yrs later these 2 bad actors are still around. Benji and Hamas are almost symbiotic, a large part of their appeals depends on having the other as bogeyman.

 

[Herefordian]

Innocent Israeli civilians have been abducted, raped and murdered by these barbarians. For what?

Those responsible for these heinous acts must be punished by a neutral party within international law.

I agree Israel and Netanyahu are far from innocent in all of this. But if they simply defend against those responsible for this atrocity, it won't be enough.

The risk of Hamas regrouping and doing it again, in Israel or elsewhere, is too great. Their military capabilities must be dismantled.

On the other side, Netanyahu needs to be removed from office and held accountable for his actions.

Innocent Israeli and Palestinian people have suffered for something which is no fault of their own. It's tragic.

 

[GS250]

Whatever deaths have been caused by Israeli action over the years, none of it has been as a result of the sort hate and barbarism we have witnessed over the last few days.

We are seeing what 'fascists' and the 'far right' actually look like. Not a lot of difference between what we are seeing now and what the Nazi Party did.

That's the far right Ladies and Gents. Maybe we can start using this term a bit more appropriately in the future.

 

[21C101]

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[GRALISTAIR]

Leaving all questions of ethics and morality aside. I am trying to work out what exactly Hamas are trying to achieve by doing this since they can't hope to win a military battle.

Fighting asymmetric warfare?

 

[renegademaster]

Leaving all questions of ethics and morality aside. I am trying to work out what exactly Hamas are trying to achieve by doing this since they can't hope to win a military battle.

The only thing I can think it is a Grotesque trolling strategy to provoke Israel into an equally grotesque overreaction causing a grade 1 humanitarian disaster in Gaza with the purpose of claiming genocide and widening the conflict (with no regards by Hamas for the welfare of those they govern to put it mildly).

Based on reports this morning, I fear Israel may take the bait, whether others do remains to be seen.

How this will interplay with Russia /Ukraine (or how much it already is behind the scenes) remains to be seen.

Torpedoing the planned Saudi Israel deal

 

[adc82140]

Where is Egypt sitting on all this? Not really heard much about their reaction.

 

[uglymonkey]

Is the Gaza strip crossing into Egypt still open for example?

 

[Bluejays]

Is the Gaza strip crossing into Egypt still open for example?

Tends to open in fits and starts. Egypt and Hamas don't get on particularly well. Closed at present I believe

 

[21C101]

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[DC1989]

I feel for the Palestinians but until Hamas goes there's no chance of peace. As other's have mentioned, Palestine have always rejected any 2 state solution as they don't believe Israel or it's people should exist at all

 

[Yew]

Am I the only one finding the rhetoric from Israel very concerning:

Humza Yousaf: My in-laws are trapped in Gaza

Scotland's first minister says he is "worried sick" for his wife's parents who are in Gaza visiting family.

www.bbc.co.uk

"Gaza will effectively be obliterated"

Gaza 'soon without fuel, medicine and food' - Israel authorities

Israel has announced a "complete siege" on the Strip in response to Saturday's attacks.

www.bbc.co.uk

On Monday, Israel's Defence Minister Yoav Gallant said it would impose a "complete siege" on the territory.
"No electricity, no food, no water, no gas - it's all closed," he said, adding that "we are fighting animals and are acting accordingly."

If I were a government official, I'd certainly not want to be using rhetoric so close to the dehumanisation techniques used in the run up to historic genocides. I hope that this is just an emotional reaction, and that cooler heads prevail.

 

[Mogster]

Torpedoing the planned Saudi Israel deal

I thought the same. Iran is behind this.

 

[DC1989]

Am I the only one finding the rhetoric from Israel very concerning:

Humza Yousaf: My in-laws are trapped in Gaza

Scotland's first minister says he is "worried sick" for his wife's parents who are in Gaza visiting family.

www.bbc.co.uk

Gaza 'soon without fuel, medicine and food' - Israel authorities

Israel has announced a "complete siege" on the Strip in response to Saturday's attacks.

www.bbc.co.uk

If I were a government official, I'd certainly not want to be using rhetoric so close to the dehumanisation techniques used in the run up to historic genocides. I hope that this is just an emotional reaction, and that cooler heads prevail.

Unfortunately Israel's current government is propped up by ultra right wing nationalists and cooler heads are hard to come by in their current cabinet

 

[adc82140]

There's defence, there's retaliation, and there's Israel's current rhetoric. Given what went on over the weekend, Israel is perfectly entitled to the first two. But genocidal rhetoric is unacceptable in my view, no matter who it's coming from.

Unfortunately in recent years, criticism of the actions of the current Israeli government have been seen as tantamount to anti semitism. Israel is a democracy, there is an opposition with different views,so surely there must be space for dissenting voices.

 

[21C101]

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[GS250]

I thought the same. Iran is behind this.

Yep. And if proven this could rapidly get out of hand. Dare I say there will be some big conversations going on between Israel and the USA at present.

And going into extra conspiracy mode....all times to coincide with what's happening in Ukraine?? Russia involved??

 

[21C101]

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[adc82140]

And going into extra conspiracy mode....all times to coincide with what's happening in Ukraine?? Russia involved??

I don't think so. Russia has too many interests in Israel and has it's own problems with Islamic extremism. Russia also is home to 3% of the world's Jews, that's the 3rd largest percentage behind the United States and Israel.

However there's no denying it's useful for them. Draws attention away from Ukraine, and their propaganda machine is already claiming that western weapons sent to Ukraine have ended up in the hands of Hamas.

 

[DC1989]

Could this help Ukraine with US military aid? I've not been following it that closely but haven't the republicans in Congress refused to sign off any more military aid to Ukraine?

I'm sure they will be making up all kinds of reasons why US giving military aid to Israel is different but couldn't the democrats use this to tie it together?

 

[21C101]

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[Farigiraf]

BBC news seem to be talking to people from both Israel and Palestine (not Hamas, reasonable people). Good to see them on the side of peace more than anything

 

[Bluejays]

I don't think so. Russia has too many interests in Israel and has it's own problems with Islamic extremism. Russia also is home to 3% of the world's Jews, that's the 3rd largest percentage behind the United States and Israel.

However there's no denying it's useful for them. Draws attention away from Ukraine, and their propaganda machine is already claiming that western weapons sent to Ukraine have ended up in the hands of Hamas.

Very true, Israel and Russia have very close links through neccesity. Massive numbers of russian Jews moved to Israel and that means there's a huge link back between Israel and Russia. Also a large Ukrainian Jew population in Israel.
Quite an uneasy but professional relationship with the russian military aswell, who were essentially on Israels border when operating in Syria.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Am I the only one finding the rhetoric from Israel very concerning:

Humza Yousaf: My in-laws are trapped in Gaza

Scotland's first minister says he is "worried sick" for his wife's parents who are in Gaza visiting family.

www.bbc.co.uk

Gaza 'soon without fuel, medicine and food' - Israel authorities

Israel has announced a "complete siege" on the Strip in response to Saturday's attacks.

www.bbc.co.uk

If I were a government official, I'd certainly not want to be using rhetoric so close to the dehumanisation techniques used in the run up to historic genocides. I hope that this is just an emotional reaction, and that cooler heads prevail.

In a word - NO. Very worrying.