2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[Purple Train]

Ah yes, that has a familiar ring to it.

Is this a strange attempt at a false equivalence? If the UK had a far-right regime committing genocide, then your point may be valid, but as we're not behaving in a remotely similar way to the far-right Israeli regime, then it's just a ludicrous comparison.

Put it another way: if a far-right regime was occupying our lands and committing genocide, do you think there is perhaps a possibility that some people may fight back?

Do you have any idea what it could be like to have your homeland occupied and be denied basic amenities?

While I don't disagree with your sentiment, I don't read the conversation you're replying to as having anything to do with the current atrocities, but with the recent history of the area? I am no scholar, either of the current war or the history behind it, and I may have completely misunderstood the conversation, but I think you've misunderstood Carlisle. Obviously if I am wrong, my sincere and profuse apologies (my eye test is on order!)

 

[GusB]

While I don't disagree with your sentiment, I don't read the conversation you're replying to as having anything to do with the current atrocities, but with the recent history of the area? I am no scholar, either of the current war or the history behind it, and I may have completely misunderstood the conversation, but I think you've misunderstood Carlisle. Obviously if I am wrong, my sincere and profuse apologies (my eye test is on order!)

While both Hamas and Hezbollah have both fired rockets into Israel, let's not forget that the oppression of Palestinians has been ongoing for decades in Gaza and the West Bank. Israeli settlers continue to kick people Palestinians off their land despite it being illegal to do so and we in the west have just looked on and allowed it to happen. I don't agree with firing rockets at civilian targets, but it doesn't happen for no reason. Israel isn't shy about killing civilians either; it cannot claim the moral high ground.

 

[AlterEgo]

Britain had a 30 year campaign of bombing and rockets and political assassinations which did not result in the carpet bombing of Derry or Belfast or an invasion of the Republic of Ireland across whose border those attacks were often conducted.

 

[Carlisle]

Britain had a 30 year campaign of bombing and rockets and political assassinations which did not result in the carpet bombing of Derry or Belfast or an invasion of the Republic of Ireland across whose border those attacks were often conducted.governments wanted peace & were willing

Both Governments throughout that period for the most part very much wanted a peaceful solution , The Hamas Government does not .

 

[AlterEgo]

Both Governments throughout that period for the most part very much desired a peaceful solution , The Hamas Government does not .

But Britain had a “military response”, so what point were you making in your original post?

 

[GusB]

Both Governments throughout that period for the most part very much wanted a peaceful solution , The Hamas Government does not .

It's quite clear that the current Israeli government has no interest in peace, either. It was Israel that broke the last cease-fire in Gaza and, despite having agreed a cease-fire in Lebanon, it continued to bomb targets there and destroy homes near the border.

Meanwhile, it's the civilian population that suffers.

 

[ainsworth74]

Both Governments throughout that period for the most part very much wanted a peaceful solution , The Hamas Government does not .

Neither Hamas nor the Israeli governments seem particularly interested in peace at this point. As has so often been the case in Palestinian history going back at least to the 1930s, they suffer twice or even three times over. Once because of Israeli government actions, twice because their Arab so called allies have always been far more interested in how best to use the Palestinian's to their own advantage and drop them like hot potatoes, and thrice due to the failures of the Palestinian leadership who themselves have often focussed on advancing an ideology or their own individual position rather than trying to get a settlement. Hamas are just the most recent group in a leadership position and one of the more cruel.

 

[brad465]

I can't recall what game this is, but someone elsewhere when talking about the Gaza situation recalled a game where killing terrorists was a large part of it, but if a civilian was killed, this created two new terrorists. While not to be taken quite so literally, this does highlight that the mass killing of civilians is a recipe for even bigger problems further down the line.

 

[GusB]

I can't recall what game this is, but someone elsewhere when talking about the Gaza situation recalled a game where killing terrorists was a large part of it, but if a civilian was killed, this created two new terrorists. While not to be taken quite so literally, this does highlight that the mass killing of civilians is a recipe for even bigger problems further down the line.

Well, quite. The whole idea that there will be no cessation in hostilities until Hamas is eradicated is just for the birds. While it's certainly possible to take out key individuals, the desire for Palestinians to live in their own lands will never go away. The next generation (whatever is left) will grow up to harbour the same resentment towards the people who killed their parents, siblings and other family members. Rinse and repeat.

 

[nw1]

Both Governments throughout that period for the most part very much wanted a peaceful solution , The Hamas Government does not .

Maybe, but this does not excuse what Netanyahu is doing right now.

It is clear that, in the past two years, the total wrong-doing committed by the current Israeli government has far exceeded that done by Hamas.

Whether Hamas want peace or not, it does not excuse the mass murder being perpetrated by Netanyahu and his government.

You're not going to get any peace by bombing Palestine into extinction and performing mass murder of its people through ultra-right-wing militarism.

Netanyahu's actions will solve nothing. Only increase resentment in the region.

 

[DustyBin]

Well, quite. The whole idea that there will be no cessation in hostilities until Hamas is eradicated is just for the birds. While it's certainly possible to take out key individuals, the desire for Palestinians to live in their own lands will never go away. The next generation (whatever is left) will grow up to harbour the same resentment towards the people who killed their parents, siblings and other family members. Rinse and repeat.

I’m probably clutching at straws here, but there have been recent anti-Hamas protests in Gaza which Hamas appear to have been unable to deal with in the usual manner. If (and it’s a huge if obviously) Hamas were to be overthrown, the world (or more likely a coalition of key nations) really needs to step in and find a permanent solution. If there’s an opportunity to break the cycle it needs to be taken IMO.

 

[nw1]

Both Governments throughout that period for the most part very much wanted a peaceful solution , The Hamas Government does not .

Did the IRA want a peaceful solution though? The actor most similar to Hamas in the Northern Ireland situation was presumably them.

 

[jonnycoleraine]

Did the IRA want a peaceful solution though? The actor most similar to Hamas in the Northern Ireland situation was presumably them.

They did not until they realised they couldnt "win" by violence

 

[Carlisle]

It is clear that, in the past two years, the total wrong-doing committed by the current Israeli government has far exceeded that done by Hamas.

I’m sure you’re right, not forgetting Hamas always had the option to surrender, but if Netanyahu can’t now end this war very soon given current casualties he must surely be facing serious isolation on the international stage alongside hopefully domestic failure but against tyrants like Putin, Xi Jinping & Kim Jong Un, bin Salman etc I guess he’s still a relatively moderate guy who’s at least been elected in a meaningful way

 

[GusB]

I’m sure you’re right, not forgetting Hamas always had the option to surrender

Israel has always had the option to stop allowing settlers to expand into Palestinian land. It also has the option to use means other than 2000lb bombs to tackle Hamas. It has the option to have a meaningful discussion about how various ethnic groups could live side-by-side.

What's your point, exactly?

I'm utterly fed up with people saying that the principle aim of Hamas is to obliterate Israel when the hardcore nutcases in the Israeli goverment want nothing more than to wipe out the Palestinian population. It's hypocrisy of the highest order.

Come on then, let's hear your suggestions. How do you propose that Israelis and Arabs live peaceably? What is your solution?

but if Netanyahu can’t now end this war very soon given current casualties he must surely be facing serious isolation on the international stage alongside hopefully domestic failure but against tyrants like Putin, Xi Jinping & Kim Jong Un, bin Salman etc I guess he’s still a relatively moderate guy who’s at least been elected in a meaningful way

Netanyahu isn't "moderate". It's a monster.

It doesn't matter if it was elected by democratic means; it doesn't act like the leader of a democratic country. It is a tyrant, no matter how you wish to dress it up.

@Carlisle

‘One of the most heartbreaking tragedies’: Gaza doctor’s last goodbye before nine children killed in airstrike

Dr Alaa al-Najjar was at work when Israeli strike destroyed her home, leaving one son and her husband as survivors

www.theguardian.com

In the early hours of Friday, as she did every day, Dr Alaa al-Najjar said goodbye to her 10 children before leaving the house. The youngest, Sayden, six months old, was still sleeping. And like every day, with war raging in Gaza and Israeli strikes landing just metres from her neighbourhood in Khan Younis, Najjar worried about leaving them at home without her.

But Najjar, 35, had little choice. One of Gaza’s dwindling number of medics, a respected paediatrician at the Nasser medical complex, she had to go to work to care for injured babies who had barely survived Israeli attacks. She could never have imagined that that farewell to her family would be her last.


A few hours later, the charred bodies of seven of her children, killed by an Israeli airstrike on Khan Younis, arrived at her hospital. Two other bodies, including Sayden’s, remained under the rubble. Of her 10 children, only one had survived, along with their father, Hamdi al-Najjar, 40, also a doctor. Both are now in hospital.

I can't find anything written so far, but I've just heard on the BBC World Service that this doctor's husband has since died. Are you happy about this?

 

[nw1]

Israel has always had the option to stop allowing settlers to expand into Palestinian land. It also has the option to use means other than 2000lb bombs to tackle Hamas. It has the option to have a meaningful discussion about how various ethnic groups could live side-by-side.

What's your point, exactly?

I'm utterly fed up with people saying that the principle aim of Hamas is to obliterate Israel when the hardcore nutcases in the Israeli goverment want nothing more than to wipe out the Palestinian population. It's hypocrisy of the highest order.

Come on then, let's hear your suggestions. How do you propose that Israelis and Arabs live peaceably? What is your solution?


Netanyahu isn't "moderate". It's a monster.

It doesn't matter if it was elected by democratic means; it doesn't act like the leader of a democratic country. It is a tyrant, no matter how you wish to dress it up.

@Carlisle

‘One of the most heartbreaking tragedies’: Gaza doctor’s last goodbye before nine children killed in airstrike

Dr Alaa al-Najjar was at work when Israeli strike destroyed her home, leaving one son and her husband as survivors

www.theguardian.com

I can't find anything written so far, but I've just heard on the BBC World Service that this doctor's husband has since died. Are you happy about this?

To be fair I thought @Carlisle's post was reasonably measured, though I would disagree about Netanyahu being a moderate.

The kind of posts that really get my back up are the "what do you expect after 7 October?" ones, as if bombing Palestine to oblivion is a legitimate response. Usually made by the anti-woke brigade, strangely.

I hope that the people brought to trial and jailed after this is over include Eliyahu. Without any exaggeration Eliyahu is truly an evil, evil monster. Anyone who threatens nuclear weapons against anyone else is a monster and deserves to be sentenced to life imprisonment, as in "life means life".