North Wales Main Line Electrification

[Krokodil]

If it really was clearly a great thing worth the cost it would still be getting done.

Rubbish. Pretty much every expert, not to mention every former PM and various other grandees have condemned the decision to cancel. The PM has gone rogue, with the obsessive Gilligan whispering in his ear.

 

[Meerkat]

Rubbish. Pretty much every expert, not to mention every former PM and various other grandees have condemned the decision to cancel. The PM has gone rogue, with the obsessive Gilligan whispering in his ear.

PMs and grandees isn’t a national consensus.
There is loads of anti-HS2 feeling and a lot of those who aren’t anti are pretty ambivalent.

 

[Krokodil]

PMs and grandees isn’t a national consensus.
There is loads of anti-HS2 feeling and a lot of those who aren’t anti are pretty ambivalent.

Well if you want to make important decisions on national infrastructure based on what Jez was ranting about down the Red Lion...

The people who knew what the project was for wanted it to happen. But then I suppose that this country has had enough of experts.

 

[BrianW]

Well if you want to make important decisions on national infrastructure based on what Jez was ranting about down the Red Lion...

The people who knew what the project was for wanted it to happen. But then I suppose that this country has had enough of experts.

Such things are decided neither by politicians, nor by Svengali nor Rasputin nor Cummings nor Mandelson nor Mata Hari whispering, nor by experts or technocrats but by the will of the Great British electorate expressed at the ballot box. Millions of flies cannot be wrong I blame the skools; I blame the parents; Brexit; Putin; .... Not me, guv!

 

[Meerkat]

Well if you want to make important decisions on national infrastructure based on what Jez was ranting about down the Red Lion...

The people who knew what the project was for wanted it to happen. But then I suppose that this country has had enough of experts.

So other PMs are experts on rail, but not the one who has to pay for it?

 

[Krokodil]

So other PMs are experts on rail, but not the one who has to pay for it?

I didn't say that at all. The other PMs will have had the same information fed to them from the DfT as the current one has (though not all of them had Gilligan in their ear). Given that each of them, plus many former transport secretaries and railway experts have all come out to disagree with him is more than a hint that he's going out on a limb.

 

[BrianW]

Well if you want to make important decisions on national infrastructure based on what Jez was ranting about down the Red Lion...

The people who knew what the project was for wanted it to happen. But then I suppose that this country has had enough of experts.

Such things are decided neither by politicians, nor by Svengali nor Rasputin nor Cummings nor Mandelson nor Mata Hari, nor by experts or technocrats but by the will of the Great British electorate expressed at the ballot box. Millions of flies cannot be wrong I blame the skools; I blame the parents; Brexit; Putin; .... ot me, guv!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In current proposals, is there not one of the now-closed railway stations between Chester and Crewe (Beeston Castle & Tarporley?) planned to be reopened and would any changes envisaged to the existing trackwork have infrastructural implications for that proposed reopening?

 

[The Planner]

In current proposals, is there not one of the now-closed railway stations between Chester and Crewe (Beeston Castle & Tarporley?) planned to be reopened and would any changes envisaged to the existing trackwork have infrastructural implications for that proposed reopening?

No, you just stick platforms in. You would also get rid of the pointwork whilst you were there.

 

[Krokodil]

You would also get rid of the pointwork whilst you were there.

Surely that's a useful crossover to have

 

[The Planner]

Surely that's a useful crossover to have

What for? Single line working is rarely used now, and I wouldnt be surprised if its out of use anyway. Its just historic for Beeston box.

 

[Krokodil]

I've used it when the HOBC was doing the down line between Steelworks and Beeston Castle. It also got used recently when a 197 wouldn't go forwards but would go backwards.

 

[The Planner]

I've used it when the HOBC was doing the down line between Steelworks and Beeston Castle. It also got used recently when a 197 wouldn't go forwards but would go backwards.

It will be looked at based upon how many incidents and the money it could have saved vs its capital cost of renewal and putting it into any new interlocking. If it stacks up then it will probably stay, but i suspect the asset managers will try and get rid.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It will be looked at based upon how many incidents and the money it could have saved vs its capital cost of renewal and putting it into any new interlocking. If it stacks up then it will probably stay, but i suspect the asset managers will try and get rid.

Some bi-di on the line might be useful, as in the Crewe-Shrewsbury design and at Flint on the North Wales line (replacing the complications at Holywell Jn).
Beeston Castle is about half-way.

 

[The Planner]

Some bi-di on the line might be useful, as in the Crewe-Shrewsbury design and at Flint on the North Wales line (replacing the complications at Holywell Jn).
Beeston Castle is about half-way.

Crewe Shrewsbury was a shambles of a resignaling.

 

[AndrewE]

Crewe Shrewsbury was a shambles of a resignaling.

How so? Budget trimmed 20%, leaving us with 50% functionality? Please tell!

 

[The Planner]

How so? Budget trimmed 20%, leaving us with 50% functionality? Please tell!

Functionality that can't really be used, no improvement in capacity, was meant to be the singing example of modular signaling.

 

[Bald Rick]

and over budget. badly.

 

[zwk500]

Some bi-di on the line might be useful, as in the Crewe-Shrewsbury design and at Flint on the North Wales line (replacing the complications at Holywell Jn).
Beeston Castle is about half-way.

You could quite reasonably have the bi-di as Crewe Steelworks to Chester East Jn though, as it'd be emergency use only and it'd be mainly for the London train. But it'd ramp the cost up on a line that so far hasn't made the case to replace a manual signal box with TCB.

 

[The Planner]

You could quite reasonably have the bi-di as Crewe Steelworks to Chester East Jn though, as it'd be emergency use only and it'd be mainly for the London train. But it'd ramp the cost up on a line that so far hasn't made the case to replace a manual signal box with TCB.

Its another one that got close with a design etc only to get canned.

 

[richa2002]

PMs and grandees isn’t a national consensus.
There is loads of anti-HS2 feeling and a lot of those who aren’t anti are pretty ambivalent.

Quite. To pretend such individuals represent a bell-weather of sensible thought is bonkers by now. They all think and say the same things that suit the acquisition of power and money to the fewest possible number of people. Don't listen to them.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Functionality that can't really be used, no improvement in capacity, was meant to be the singing example of modular signaling.

and over budget. badly.

Isn't all that down to Network Rail design and project management?
Or was the contract awarded before the design was done?
Is modular signalling dead - I thought it was the only way non-ETCS resignalling was "affordable"?

 

[Krokodil]

Quite. To pretend such individuals represent a bell-weather of sensible thought is bonkers by now. They all think and say the same things that suit the acquisition of power and money to the fewest possible number of people. Don't listen to them.

Well they're talking more sense than the cabinet are. Still if you'd rather take the viewpoint of Rishi "Helicopter" Sunak over the previous cross-party consensus then you do you.

 

[The Planner]

Isn't all that down to Network Rail design and project management?
Or was the contract awarded before the design was done?

No idea, but it felt like a scheme that was designed in a silo with no input from anyone else.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well they're talking more sense than the cabinet are. Still if you'd rather take the viewpoint of Rishi "Helicopter" Sunak over the previous cross-party consensus then you do you.

The problem stems from the number of ministries in existence. No-one should be expected to spout pearls of wisdom in speeches on matters that affect any of those ministries. It could be at shuffle time, you are expected to talk on railway subjects then after you have a new ministry, you are expected to speak knowledgably on matters that the new ministry cover.

Sir Humphrey would explain this far better than I can.

 

[Mikey C]

PMs and grandees isn’t a national consensus.
There is loads of anti-HS2 feeling and a lot of those who aren’t anti are pretty ambivalent.

The reality is that HS2 has always been a controversial project, and not just from the right either. Ian Hislop (a well known rail fan) was pleased by the decision on Have I got News for You on Friday for example.

 

[HSTEd]

Isn't all that down to Network Rail design and project management?
Or was the contract awarded before the design was done?
Is modular signalling dead - I thought it was the only way non-ETCS resignalling was "affordable"?

Modular signalling was primarily proposed as a way to kick the ETCS can down the road to avoid dealing with the problems caused by the industry's current fragmentation.

A cynic might suggest it never had much chance of delivering what was promised.

 

[Bald Rick]

No idea, but it felt like a scheme that was designed in a silo with no input from anyone else.

Hey, i know who speicified it… but yes.

Ely - Norwich in the other hand was much better.

 

[Rhydgaled]

OK, then if the bridges really are listed then it's time for a new public debate:

Given that decarbonising rail haulage and encouraging modal shift from road to rail are recognised by most people as quite high priorities (even if not by the PM,) ought we to look at relatively minor landscape features, e.g. brick arch bridges in the Cheshire countryside, and decide whether electrifying the railway is more important?

I suppose you could replace the bridges with architecturally comparable designs, but the listing people really don't like pastiches like that.
Neither do they like them being demolished, so we are at an impasse.

I can't find it now, but I seem to recall reading somewhere (probably 'Modern Railways') that Network Rail had designed a standard replacement bridge for use across the Great Western Electrification Programme (GWEP) where a listed bridge had to be demolished to allow electrification. I think the design had the initials GWR on it somewhere; not sure if it was ever actually used.

Network Rail, sadly, seem to have scant regard for railway heritiage. Their proposals for Cardiff Central, a station listed for its completeness, include substatial demolition because they want to get 10-car class 800s/802s using platform 0, even though that is on the north side of the formation handy for services between Maesteg, Ebbw Vale, Hereford etc. which don't need such long trains. More-relevant here, they wanted to demolish Steventon bridge on the GWEP even though it was perfectly possible to wire it and the problem was actually the wire gradient due to the adjacent level crossings. Sure, if Network Rail and the safety regulator(s) etc. weren't trying to close level crossings then we'd need to take a long hard look at all these brick arch bridges and pick out some good examples (which should be listed and properly protected) to allow the rest to be demolished to ease electrification but Network Rail's attitude to date hasn't filled me with confidence that they are treating listed buildings approriately.

You can guarantee that they will be listed the second anyone proposes to demolish them though.

Is it that easy to list a building (or in this case a bridge)? I'd have thought it would be quite an undertaking to get the 40 odd bridges* over the line beyond Crewe and Chester listed (assuming none are already). Can't say I noticed many level crossings (though I wasn't looking for them) during my quick Google maps survey of the line though - did Steventon require track lowering (it looks pretty tight)? If not, maybe just reduced clearences would deal with most of them.

* majority arches, although this total does include at least one relatively modern highway bridge which would be no bother to electrification

I think the only conclusion we can draw is that there is a deep-seated determination in Whitehall to prevent any rail upgrades or modernisation. Without postulating some sort of determined opposition it's hard to understand why blindingly obvious next steps in the efficiency improvements and reductions in costs of our railways just don't happen.

That's one possibility, but there's a second (and it could also be both). The second possibility is that there is a deep-seated determination to spend as much of the transport investment budget as possible on road (and possibly air) schemes.

Rishi's had the option to force something through and achieve a great thing for the country, and he chose to cancel it and betray all those promises. His words and actions are contradictory and one speaks *much* louder than the other.

If it really was clearly a great thing worth the cost it would still be getting done. But this is an argument for elsewhere

The people who knew what the project was for wanted it to happen. But then I suppose that this country has had enough of experts.

Different people say HS2 is for different things. If we were doing it for what I consider to be the correct reasons, Rishi didn't cancel the right parts of the project in my view (the parts that need cancelling don't include Euston either).

 

[6Gman]

Is it that easy to list a building (or in this case a bridge)?

Getting Listed Building status is by no means easy.

(Unless it's a church. Or a theatre. Which seem to be readily listed!)