Disruption due to an issue at Dawlish (18/10)

[HOOVER29]

Yesterday’s failed 9-car IET. The headcode changed by Exeter panel to reflect how good these trains are

A family member lives in one of the properties on Marine Parade, they say the intensity of the vibrations through the building when waves crash against the new wall during stormy weather feel much stronger than they used to.

We’ve stayed on Marine Parade for a fair few years now just down from the tunnel on holiday
We noticed that the ‘bang’ from the sea hitting the wall has got louder

 

[Master29]

In any case there's no need to use HSTs. An emergency timetable providing an hourly 15x west of Exeter (skip stopping smaller stations) is entirely possible, even if it means having coach companies on call to release 15x from branches. This hardly ever happens in peak holiday season anyway.

In the peak holiday season no but as we are now finding out people are spreading their Devon and Cornish breaks to now cover most months barring January and February.

 

[150249]

Is 802114 still stranded on Platform 1 at Newton Abbot?

 

[irp]

Is 802114 still stranded on Platform 1 at Newton Abbot?

Traksy is showing all platforms clear at present, where as earlier it was showing platform 1 occupied with a 5xxx headcode

 

[VP185]

You would know if a wave actually hit a train, because I very much doubt it'd still be on the rails ( and if there's a wave high enough to actually break over the sea wall there would be bits of houses everywhere too ). What's hitting the train is sea spray, just quite a lot at once. But that's the same as it's always been there.

It won’t take a train off the rails but you can certainly feel the train being rocked.

If there was a chance a train could be taken off the rails then nothing would be running.

 

[Irascible]

It won’t take a train off the rails but you can certainly feel the train being rocked.

Well yes, the wave is hitting the wall & breaking up, and the parts get blown into the train - the wall's doing it's job. If there was a danger of a wave big enough to hit a train directly then Dawlish would be evacuated ( and most of the south coast I'd think! ), because it'd certainly wreck a lot of things other than the railway. I've been down that line with high waves ( quite a while ago now ), and yeah you can feel it when a wave smacks the wall & bits go upwards & get blown into the train, but you'd know if it was a direct hit, that's for sure...

These units were meant to cope with being doused and they don't. Whether GWR trying to run them through anyway makes them at fault of something is a seperate argument ( hey, maybe they're trying to prove a point here ), it doesn't change that the trains can't handle it & others can.

 

[uglymonkey]

I've been on a 2 car 150 when hit by several waves, it rocks quite a bit!

 

[VP185]

Well yes, the wave is hitting the wall & breaking up, and the parts get blown into the train - the wall's doing it's job. If there was a danger of a wave big enough to hit a train directly then Dawlish would be evacuated ( and most of the south coast I'd think! ), because it'd certainly wreck a lot of things other than the railway. I've been down that line with high waves ( quite a while ago now ), and yeah you can feel it when a wave smacks the wall & bits go upwards & get blown into the train, but you'd know if it was a direct hit, that's for sure...

These units were meant to cope with being doused and they don't. Whether GWR trying to run them through anyway makes them at fault of something is a seperate argument ( hey, maybe they're trying to prove a point here ), it doesn't change that the trains can't handle it & others can.

I’ve driven through Dawlish enough times to know when I’m being hit by waves or spray. Not all waves hit the wall and break up. The ones that don’t hit the wall are the ones that often sends large volumes of water over the wall and onto the railway and trains. Sea spray will not rock the train. Waves will, and they certainly do wreck things, it’s the waves coming over that causes line to flood and the reason why the ballast is glued. Spray is just a fine mist. As for a wave requiring an evacuation of the whole South Coast, that’s probably one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve read on here!

The trains are not designed to be doused. They are designed to cope with sea spray which they do.

 

[GWRrrr]

Looks like 802114 left Newton Abbot today, with some help.

Realtime Trains | 5Z74 1516 Newton Abbot to Stoke Gifford | 19/10/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Z74 1516 departure from Newton Abbot to Stoke Gifford on 19/10/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[swt_passenger]

Something that seems to get lost in the background, is that there are significant stretches of the seawall between the Warren and Teignmouth that have not been altered at all yet. I’m never sure if there’s going to be a future phase from Coastguards footbridge towards the north?

AIUI the immediate repairs made to the length involved in the 2014 breach did not increase the sea wall height, and also did not include the recurve profile used in the later stages. So before the “seawall project” is criticised shouldn’t it be determined exactly where the worst water damage happens?

 

[irish_rail]

Looks like 802114 left Newton Abbot today, with some help.

Realtime Trains | 5Z74 1516 Newton Abbot to Stoke Gifford | 19/10/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Z74 1516 departure from Newton Abbot to Stoke Gifford on 19/10/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Yes the plan to rescue it with a loco had to be axed as Hitachi weren't prepared to provide a fitter to do the coupling up apparently.

In any case there's no need to use HSTs. An emergency timetable providing an hourly 15x west of Exeter (skip stopping smaller stations) is entirely possible, even if it means having coach companies on call to release 15x from branches. This hardly ever happens in peak holiday season anyway.

The problem is , the 150s are more prone to damage from heavy seas such as smashed passenger windows etc. It is generally the debris, not the waves that cause the physical damage and 150s are by no means a perfect answer. The idea that some on here mention that Devon and Cornwall just gets abandoned every time there is a storm is also completely barmy and must not be allowed to happen. The only solution in my opinion is to divert some investment down this way and build some kind of avoider.

Also a question for those in the know, of the sets that failed I see many where 802s. Where they all perhaps using the regenerative brakes that are only operational on the 802s and not the 800s? That braking system is interesting to say the least, very much disliked by drivers , it wouldn't actually surprise me if it played a part in all this!

 

[43096]

Yes the plan to rescue it with a loco had to be axed as Hitachi weren't prepared to provide a fitter to do the coupling up apparently.

Hitachi aren't prepared to do very much for their customers at all, really. Starting with trains that meet the specifications set out for them.

 

[VP185]

150s are by no means a perfect answer. The idea that some on here mention that Devon and Cornwall just gets abandoned every time there is a storm is also completely barmy and must not be allowed to happen. The only solution in my opinion is to divert some investment down this way and build some kind of avoider.

You’ve got two companies that effectively can’t run when the sea state is rough. Sourcing replacement coaches is extremely difficult these with fewer and fewer coach companies operating so the only option should have been to retain two full length HST sets to run shuttles, the cost of which should be shared between the two companies.
When not required for shuttles, they could be hired out, used for additional capacity by both companies for events etc or diversify and utilise for their own charter work…. you have Pullman dining crew available for instance, work together. Why not once in a while offer those in the South West a late Saturday night departure from London giving people a chance of a Saturday night out in the capital for shows and the theatre?

 

[liamf656]

When not required for shuttles, they could be hired out, used for additional capacity by both companies for events etc or diversify and utilise for their own charter work…. you have Pullman dining crew available for instance, work together. Why not once in a while offer those in the South West a late Saturday night departure from London giving people a chance of a Saturday night out in the capital for shows and the theatre?

Because if they did this then they may as well use the stock they have. If the HSTs are only used in Dawlish during bad weather such as yesterday then they'd be seriously under utilised the rest of ths time, which brings us back to the idea of using 150s or 158s on shuttles, but having said that this will probably be moved to the speculative area now

 

[qantas330]

800007 took 802114 to Stoke Gifford

 

[VP185]

Because if they did this then they may as well use the stock they have. If the HSTs are only used in Dawlish during bad weather such as yesterday then they'd be seriously under utilised the rest of ths time, which brings us back to the idea of using 150s or 158s on shuttles, but having said that this will probably be moved to the speculative area now

The stock they have wouldn’t stretch that far. A Penzance to Pad service with Dawlish closed to IETs effectively needs 3 sets. There isn’t enough 15x’s to cover the current work and they certainly wouldn’t be able to provide the capacity from a busy London or XC service.
The HSTs would have been only the viable option, provided you seek to find them alternative work to help with costs when not required.
You can’t close the railway line to XC and IETs and offer no alternative everytime the sea is rough.

 

[Rich McLean]

Well yes, the wave is hitting the wall & breaking up, and the parts get blown into the train - the wall's doing it's job. If there was a danger of a wave big enough to hit a train directly then Dawlish would be evacuated ( and most of the south coast I'd think! ), because it'd certainly wreck a lot of things other than the railway. I've been down that line with high waves ( quite a while ago now ), and yeah you can feel it when a wave smacks the wall & bits go upwards & get blown into the train, but you'd know if it was a direct hit, that's for sure...

These units were meant to cope with being doused and they don't. Whether GWR trying to run them through anyway makes them at fault of something is a seperate argument ( hey, maybe they're trying to prove a point here ), it doesn't change that the trains can't handle it & others can.

Network rail will eventually asses and make the decision to put them on the no run list during Blue, Amber or Red states. Educated guess would be Amber. Voyagers can run in Amber so if red, it would be the sleeper and 15x/16x only.

 

[snowball]

Something that seems to get lost in the background, is that there are significant stretches of the seawall between the Warren and Teignmouth that have not been altered at all yet. I’m never sure if there’s going to be a future phase from Coastguards footbridge towards the north?

That reminds me that this press release with video appeared on the NR site on Monday but at the time there was no appropriate thread to post it to.

Network Rail looks to the next stages of south Devon railway resilience as rockfall shelter is completed

The completion of a new rockfall shelter marks a major milestone for Network Rail’s programme of work to protect the iconic coastal railway between Exeter and Newton Abbot from extreme weather.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

The completion of a new rockfall shelter marks a major milestone for Network Rail’s programme of work to protect the iconic coastal railway between Exeter and Newton Abbot from extreme weather.

The 109m-long shelter at the northern end of Parsons Tunnel, near Holcombe, has taken two years to build and will protect the railway from falling rocks and debris from the steep cliffs.

Made up of 185 pre-cast concrete units, coloured red to match the local sandstone, the striking structure is open on the seaward side so passengers can still enjoy the coastal views.

The teams from contractor Morgan Sindall Infrastructure carefully manoeuvred the pieces into place using a gantry crane that runs along rails. Most of the construction was carried out at night, while trains weren’t running, to keep everyone safe.

The roof of the shelter is covered with 4,100 tonnes of red sand and 5,132m³ of foam concrete was used to backfill between the shelter and the cliff. Above the structure, 7,000m² of stainless-steel netting, secured by 1,400 soil nails, has been installed to provide extra protection.

The £48m structure was funded by the Department for Transport as part of Network Rail’s South West Rail Resilience Programme, set up after the major storm of 2014 that cut off the railway to the peninsula for eight weeks.

It brings the total invested in the Programme to £165m, including the new sea wall at Dawlish and work is currently under way to install 19,700 square metres of netting secured by 6,000 soil nails on the cliffs between Dawlish and Holcombe.

Network Rail will shortly be submitting its outline business case for the final phase of the Programme between Parson’s Tunnel and Teignmouth to the Department for Transport (DfT) for consideration.

The proposed work follows three years of extensive analysis of existing data, plus further ground investigations on the 1.8km stretch of railway.

As outlined in a series of public events last November, engineers are working on a programme of targeted solutions for the cliffs ranging from soil nailing and netting to groundwater management. This would protect the railway without impacting the beaches between Holcombe and Teignmouth, leaving the track where it is.

Network Rail senior programme manager Ewen Morrison said: “We are delighted that the rockfall shelter is now complete, making journeys more reliable for our passengers on this vital transport link to the South West.

“Our teams worked through all weathers to get the job done and encountered very difficult ground conditions. Once the foundations were in place, it was impressive to watch the structure emerge. The gantry crane proved invaluable to meet the unique challenge of working in such a confined space between the cliffs and the sea.

“All that remains to do now are the finishing touches, such as planting local species on the roof of the shelter. We’d like to thank all our passengers and lineside neighbours for their patience during this essential work.

“We are now looking to the future with our submission for Parson’s Tunnel to Teignmouth to the DfT. It’s the final piece of the jigsaw puzzle in the South West Rail Resilience Programme which will help us to protect this route for generations to come.”

 

[nanstallon]

Is Plymouth the biggest city to have only one railway route linking it to the rest of the country? Closing the old Southern route through Okehampton was a big mistake that can and should be rectified.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

They need to get a collection of old stock that can be parked up on the line closest to the sea in bad weather to take the brunt of the waves, then do single line working along behind it.

Well with the class 150's almost ready for the bin, I suppose these could be wheeled out (from the disused line at Newton Abbot, where they could be stored) and act as a moveable sea defence with one side being plated up to prevent the windows going through.

However this could cause even more issues, not only the line is reduced to single line working but what if a class 800 fails at Dawlish? It's going to be a lot worse than what we're seeing at the moment unless there's a turn back at both Teignmouth and Dawlish Warren, then a rail replacement bus could link the two in this event.

You’ve got two companies that effectively can’t run when the sea state is rough. Sourcing replacement coaches is extremely difficult these with fewer and fewer coach companies operating so the only option should have been to retain two full length HST sets to run shuttles, the cost of which should be shared between the two companies. When not required for shuttles, they could be hired out, used for additional capacity by both companies for events etc or diversify and utilise for their own charter work…. you have Pullman dining crew available for instance, work together. Why not once in a while offer those in the South West a late Saturday night departure from London giving people a chance of a Saturday night out in the capital for shows and the theatre?

I think the better solution would be to retain two HST workings for competence reasons, then in the event of poor weather (and to avoid class 800's from clogging up Dawlish, Teignmouth and Newton Abbot because they're aint waterproof as per the disaster on the 18th October 2023) the HST's could be pressed into a shuttle service between Exeter and Newton Abbot with class 800's connecting on either side.

 

[AndrewE]

I think the better solution would be to retain two HST workings for competence reasons, then in the event of poor weather (and to avoid class 800's from clogging up Dawlish, Teignmouth and Newton Abbot because they're aint waterproof as per the disaster on the 18th October 2023) the HST's could be pressed into a shuttle service between Exeter and Newton Abbot with class 800's connecting on either side.

This sounds by far the most sensible suggestion (unless/until an avoiding line is built, or some Dawkish-proof stock is procured.) I am sure there will be a way of working with the union to get over their objections, and after all we do have a fleet of HSTs refurbished to modern standards...

 

[uglymonkey]

They could just give up and convert the A30/a38 to a 8 lane motorway from Exeter. And pulling up the railway.

 

[sprinterguy]

The 802 were meant to be Dawlish proof by having the brake resistors on the roof, rather than having vulnerable to water equipment below the solebar, like on the 800.

The primary reason Voyagers have had issues along the Dawlish sea wall over the past twenty years or so is because their brake resistors are located on the roof.

Well yes but it was said at the time they were to be Dawlish proof, or was this just GWR just putting out little white lies?

Not a lie, the units were specified to be able to cope with salt water to some extent:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79b82e40f0b63d72fc7f58/tts-redacted.pdf

TS1983 Full Functionality of the IEP Trains must be maintained during and after exposure to salt water spray and such exposure must not cause excessive cosmetic degradation of exposed surfaces, components and equipment.

On an 80x set, a driver usually has only a limited number of resets allowed before the GU locks out and needs a fitter to reset it. In the Dawlish area they can exceed that but until the short circuit has gone, the affected engine isn’t going to start.

Essentially the same achilles heel as the Voyagers, despite the fact that the IEP spec appeared, on paper, to benefit from lessons learned from a decade of Voyager operation.

 

[Somewhere]

5H17 has been sat in Newton About P1 for most of the afternoon. Intrigued as to what that is.

5H17 is a commonly used headcode fo r a train which has something wrong with it .
5 = S
H = H
1 = I
and I'll leave you to work out what the 7 means in case I upset someone

 

[Clarence Yard]

The solution to the IET problem is to be able to isolate the Rheo brake in certain circumstances - that needs a modification to the units but should be possible. It isn’t only Dawlish that causes the issue because basically wherever you can get salty water on the roof in quantity, the traction is at grave risk of shorting out. Penzance is another area that can cause issues.

Looking at what happened at Dawlish this week and without breaking too many confidences, the decision making process to determine what colour condition should have been declared and when was interesting, as were the decisions on the service. There are fine judgements to be made by NR here and I don’t envy them (especially their staff on site) that task because it has real implications for what service you can safely operate and on which lines. A train operator is entirely reliant on NR to tell them what is possible but obviously wants to run a service.

I’m not one that likes to give up at the first opportunity but there has to be times when you should play safe, even for just a couple of hours, and not try and force things through. I have seen at first hand the damage that is done to both 15x and HST sets from running through Dawlish in bad weather and it isn’t good. You don’t usually get the instant failure that a 80x or 22x gives you (although that has occurred) but there can be damage to fix afterwards.

If the Rheo brake issue isn’t fixed soon, NR will have no choice but to restrict the IET sets, even in amber conditions. Dawlish isn’t getting any easier and days like the one this week are going to be more frequent with interruptions to service, irrespective of the stock type used, becoming more common.

 

[dosxuk]

Not a lie, the units were specified to be able to cope with salt water:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79b82e40f0b63d72fc7f58/tts-redacted.pdf

TS1983 Full Functionality of the IEP Trains must be maintained during and after exposure to salt water spray and such exposure must not cause excessive cosmetic degradation of exposed surfaces, components and equipment.

If that's the line that people think specifies the train has to be "Dawlish proof", then I suggest they re-read it. There's a big difference between "salt water spray" and the conditions that have been seen along the sea wall. While I agree they're not being hit by actual waves, the amount of water that comes on to the track is a lot more than spray.

A line in the specification for Dawlish proof would have been more along the lines of "Full functionality must be maintained during and after exposure to all but the most extreme weather conditions experienced along the route, with particular emphasis on the exposed sea wall at Dawlish, including spray and water from waves during storm conditions". I would then fully expect the engineering teams to whack a huge cost penalty onto that line and it to get downgraded to an optional feature...

 

[43096]

If that's the line that people think specifies the train has to be "Dawlish proof", then I suggest they re-read it. There's a big difference between "salt water spray" and the conditions that have been seen along the sea wall. While I agree they're not being hit by actual waves, the amount of water that comes on to the track is a lot more than spray.

A line in the specification for Dawlish proof would have been more along the lines of "Full functionality must be maintained during and after exposure to all but the most extreme weather conditions experienced along the route, with particular emphasis on the exposed sea wall at Dawlish, including spray and water from waves during storm conditions". I would then fully expect the engineering teams to whack a huge cost penalty onto that line and it to get downgraded to an optional feature...

And then you get into a definition of “most extreme”. It’s actually really simple: the trains must continue to function in any conditions when the route is open.

 

[sprinterguy]

The solution to the IET problem is to be able to isolate the Rheo brake in certain circumstances - that needs a modification to the units but should be possible. It isn’t only Dawlish that causes the issue because basically wherever you can get salty water on the roof in quantity, the traction is at grave risk of shorting out. Penzance is another area that can cause issues.

Good shout, I would think that would alleviate the cause of the immediate failure at least. I wasn't sure if such an approach would be possible.

If that's the line that people think specifies the train has to be "Dawlish proof", then I suggest they re-read it. There's a big difference between "salt water spray" and the conditions that have been seen along the sea wall. While I agree they're not being hit by actual waves, the amount of water that comes on to the track is a lot more than spray.

Yeah, it did occur to me that it depends on what is meant by "salt water spray".

 

[BRX]

And then you get into a definition of “most extreme”. It’s actually really simple: the trains must continue to function in any conditions when the route is open.

That's no good as a specification, because the train builder has no control over what conditions the route might be open in. As pointed out, that is a call that is made by Network Rail.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Could Hitachi send teams of fitters for ‘instant standby’ duties at Dawlish when adverse conditions are forecast.
From comments above they could do resets, overrides, emergency coupling and so on.
More useful than having them at Stoke Gifford.