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North Wales Main Line Electrification

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zwk500

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Network Rail, sadly, seem to have scant regard for railway heritiage. ... but Network Rail's attitude to date hasn't filled me with confidence that they are treating listed buildings approriately.
This is not true. NR take great care over railway heritage but their job is to run a modern transport system not a giant heritage railway.
Is it that easy to list a building (or in this case a bridge)?
Yes you can list things overnight, as NR found out in Yorkshire when they turned up to resignal a station the name of which escapes me and somebody quickly got the signal box listed which forced NR to cancel the works mid-project. I'm fairly sure the listing happened after people had begun work on site. And after Nr had sat down with various heritage bodies to agree what should and shouldn't be preserved.
That's one possibility, but there's a second (and it could also be both). The second possibility is that there is a deep-seated determination to spend as much of the transport investment budget as possible on road (and possibly air) schemes.
theres another possibility that the government is determined to spend as little as possible on any transport schemes.
Different people say HS2 is for different things. If we were doing it for what I consider to be the correct reasons, Rishi didn't cancel the right parts of the project in my view (the parts that need cancelling don't include Euston either).
out of interest what would have been the right parts and for which reasons?
 
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eldomtom2

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Yes you can list things overnight, as NR found out in Yorkshire when they turned up to resignal a station the name of which escapes me and somebody quickly got the signal box listed which forced NR to cancel the works mid-project. I'm fairly sure the listing happened after people had begun work on site. And after Nr had sat down with various heritage bodies to agree what should and shouldn't be preserved.
I'd like actual details before believing such anecdotes...
 

The Planner

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I'd like actual details before believing such anecdotes...
Willing to bet it was Bridlington. It got listed in October 2021 right in the middle of the re-signaling scheme.
 

Western Lord

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If you have enough clout you can avoid the "problem" of having buildings listed. The owners of Heathrow Airport were allowed to demolish all of the 1950's central area buildings (Queens Building, Europa Building, latterly known as terminal 2 and the original control tower buildings) without a whisper from English Heritage who were presumably told (by the Government?) to not even think about it. Meanwhile BR buildings of similar vintage have been listed up and down the country.
 

eldomtom2

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Willing to bet it was Bridlington. It got listed in October 2021 right in the middle of the re-signaling scheme.
Of course, we don't know the circumstances behind that listing...
 

RobShipway

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Of course, we don't know the circumstances behind that listing...
As well as signal boxes being listed, you have had some being moved either as part of being listed or being saved in some way by being moved to a heritage railway line. Some of the movements of the signal boxes, as far as I am aware have actually been done with Network Rail approaching the heritage railway lines, as it has been a suggestion from a member of their staff. I believe that was certainly the case with the moving of the Cabin for the Brighton Upper Goods Yard signal box to Kingscote on the Bluebell Railway.
 

zwk500

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As well as signal boxes being listed, you have had some being moved either as part of being listed or being saved in some way by being moved to a heritage railway line. Some of the movements of the signal boxes, as far as I am aware have actually been done with Network Rail approaching the heritage railway lines, as it has been a suggestion from a member of their staff. I believe that was certainly the case with the moving of the Cabin for the Brighton Upper Goods Yard signal box to Kingscote on the Bluebell Railway.
Plenty of other examples around there, as well as smaller bits like point rodding and the mechanical interlocking parts being recovered even if the box itself cannot be. Even down to the wooden walkways on signal gantries/brackets, as in the case on the SVR at Bridgnorth, IIRC. The Bluebell has done rather well out of it with the Brighton Goods Yard cabin mentioned, the Wymondham signal box now in the museum, and the Bridge Spans ear marked for the Ardingly branch when that happens.
I got the sense that Peter Hendy is very conscious of NR's heritage and puts in lots of effort to make sure that important and useful heritage assets are not chucked out with the bathwater.
 

The Planner

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Of course, we don't know the circumstances behind that listing...
No we don't, what are you suggesting? It was discussed in the past here.
 

yorkie

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Can we please stick to North Wales Main Line Electrification in this thread, thanks :)
 

Rhydgaled

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If you have enough clout you can avoid the "problem" of having buildings listed.
This is the attitude that Network Rail appears to have had with Steventon bridge and Cardiff Central. While they don't avoid the 'problem' entirely (as can be seen by the fact their excessive destruction was stopped at Steventon) they seem to be pretty confident of getting approval from the planners. I still fear for Cardiff Central - extensive demolition is still on the cards as far as I know.

This is not true. NR take great care over railway heritage but their job is to run a modern transport system not a giant heritage railway.
Having now had a bit more time to think about it, I must admit that some counter-examples have now come to mind, where parts of a listed structure have been saved during demolition. I maintain however that their proposals for both Cardiff Central and Steventon bridge showed a lack of care in those cases - perhaps there are different departments with different attitudes?

As far as Crewe-Chester electrification is concerned, the structures most likely to be issues (though they may not be) are the brick arch bridges and the tunnel under the canal. If the bridges require work (did Steventon require track lowering?), are much the same as each other architecturally and are not hugely significant on a national level perhaps the thing to do would be to pick one or two (where there is least flood risk) for preservation through track-lowering and demolish the rest with new thin-deck modern replacements. That's the sort of thing the listing system is presumably supposed to be doing, but it doesn't seem to be working like that (not just talking about the railway here, but society as a whole).

theres another possibility that the government is determined to spend as little as possible on any transport schemes
I suppose if you look at rail in isolation that could also be the cause. However, with one possible exception (was wiring TPE, MML, GWML to Swansea, ValleyLines and the electric spine, plus HS2, ever all 'going ahead' at the same time?) there has tended to be a good deal of capital investment in motorway and trunk road schemes (and possibly airport expansion - was there ever any government funding pledged to the Heathrow 3rd runway?)
 

Chester1

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This is the attitude that Network Rail appears to have had with Steventon bridge and Cardiff Central. While they don't avoid the 'problem' entirely (as can be seen by the fact their excessive destruction was stopped at Steventon) they seem to be pretty confident of getting approval from the planners. I still fear for Cardiff Central - extensive demolition is still on the cards as far as I know.

Having now had a bit more time to think about it, I must admit that some counter-examples have now come to mind, where parts of a listed structure have been saved during demolition. I maintain however that their proposals for both Cardiff Central and Steventon bridge showed a lack of care in those cases - perhaps there are different departments with different attitudes?

As far as Crewe-Chester electrification is concerned, the structures most likely to be issues (though they may not be) are the brick arch bridges and the tunnel under the canal. If the bridges require work (did Steventon require track lowering?), are much the same as each other architecturally and are not hugely significant on a national level perhaps the thing to do would be to pick one or two (where there is least flood risk) for preservation through track-lowering and demolish the rest with new thin-deck modern replacements. That's the sort of thing the listing system is presumably supposed to be doing, but it doesn't seem to be working like that (not just talking about the railway here, but society as a whole).

I suppose if you look at rail in isolation that could also be the cause. However, with one possible exception (was wiring TPE, MML, GWML to Swansea, ValleyLines and the electric spine, plus HS2, ever all 'going ahead' at the same time?) there has tended to be a good deal of capital investment in motorway and trunk road schemes (and possibly airport expansion - was there ever any government funding pledged to the Heathrow 3rd runway?)

Heathrow third runway was / is a privately funded project. The Western approach would be funded by Heathrow, along with any other public transport infrastructure.

Chester - Crewe costs would be hugely reduced by discontinous electrification but it would rule out HS2 services.
 

eldomtom2

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Could you expand on whatever it is you are insinuating?
I am not insinuating anything. I am just saying we don't know enough about the decision-making process of the listing of Bridlington signalbox to say whether the idea of people rushing to list it to block development is accurate.
 

AndrewE

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As far as Crewe-Chester electrification is concerned, the structures most likely to be issues (though they may not be) are the brick arch bridges and the tunnel under the canal. If the bridges require work (did Steventon require track lowering?), are much the same as each other architecturally and are not hugely significant on a national level perhaps the thing to do would be to pick one or two (where there is least flood risk) for preservation through track-lowering and demolish the rest with new thin-deck modern replacements. That's the sort of thing the listing system is presumably supposed to be doing, but it doesn't seem to be working like that (not just talking about the railway here, but society as a whole).
Crewe to Chester currently closed again due to serious flooding (!) Time to look at resilence enhancements, clear or replace the old bridges and build the track fromation up above the flood risk. Deal with the tunnel as appropriate.
It's tragic that NR can reinstate vulnerable track without any controls, but any improvements are vetoed because they are not part of an approved / budgeted / funded enhancement scheme.
I fear that the gloomy outlook will mean things will just get worse, after seeing the NR predictions of managed decline and increasing disruption from track and signal failures.
 

Bald Rick

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Crewe to Chester currently closed again due to serious flooding (!) Time to look at resilence enhancements, clear or replace the old bridges and build the track fromation up above the flood risk.

Today has been very, very extreme rainfall. Im not sure that soending hundreds of millions to deal with very occaisonal disruption of this nature 8s a good use of taxpayers cash.
 

Krokodil

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Today has been very, very extreme rainfall. Im not sure that soending hundreds of millions to deal with very occaisonal disruption of this nature 8s a good use of taxpayers cash.
Flooding on this route isn't unusual though.
 

Bald Rick

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Yes, today is an exceptional occurrence. What about all of the other days that the Crewe-Chester line is closed due to flooding? They're not so exceptional.

How many days in the last decade? (i have no idea)
 

eldomtom2

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Today has been very, very extreme rainfall. Im not sure that soending hundreds of millions to deal with very occaisonal disruption of this nature 8s a good use of taxpayers cash.
It's disruption that by all indications will get more frequent in the future...
 
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