How *should* HS2 have been built?

[YorkRailFan]

Is there? Based on what?

Based on flights, but one would also have to look at how many people from Birmingham travel to other airports and fly from there or get Eurostar from London.

 

[The Planner]

Based on flights, but one would also have to look at how many people from Birmingham travel to other airports and fly from there or get Eurostar from London.

The maximum amount of flights to Paris is 5 a day on a Monday and Friday. Tuesday has three, Wednesday and Thursday have 4. Its likely to be one trains worth of people a day.

 

[Bald Rick]

Based on flights, but one would also have to look at how many people from Birmingham travel to other airports and fly from there or get Eurostar from London.

ln September, a little less than 24000 people flew between Birmingham and Paris (total of both ways). Thats 400 a day each way. Less than half a eurostar.

 

[YorkRailFan]

ln September, a lottle less than 24000 people flew between Birmingham and Paris (total of both ways). Thats 400 a day each way. Less than half a eurostar.

That's direct, think about how many may fly from other airports, or get Eurostar from London. A direct service could stimulate a lot of demand.

 

[Bald Rick]

think about how many may fly from other airports

How many do?

or get Eurostar from London

They are already on the rails, then.

 

[YorkRailFan]

How many do?

No idea, but it must be a lot.

 

[SynthD]

No idea, but it must be a lot.

It is a lot, it’s half a Eurostar a day. That’s spread out across a few departure times, and probably takes similar time door to door.

 

[mike57]

24000 people flew between Birmingham and Paris

What about travellers from the West Midlands who use other airports, as well those who travel to London and use Eurostar. I wonder what the total W Midlands > Paris flow is. Probably quite difficult to establish.

 

[Peter Sarf]

That's direct, think about how many may fly from other airports, or get Eurostar from London. A direct service could stimulate a lot of demand.

I don't see how a train can compete with a few plane loads from different airports. It would have to go on a roundabout route to serve say York, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool and then Birmingham with all the attendant facilities at each.

Those getting Eurostar from London already are doing it and so are not flying. I can imagine they would be benefiting from frequent domestic train services from their various cities around the UK so might not find a single through service to be at a convenient time.

It is a bit like the UK sleeper situation. The day trains are now so fast and frequent that they have dissolved the demand for sleepers. Gone are some of the London to Scotland sleepers, gone are the Scotland to SW sleepers. A fast and frequent high speed rail network to London will cover most bases and then we should worry about a frequent shuttle between Euston and StPancras.

For Euston to StPancras a shuttle would not be a train but autonomous vehicles or mini-busses, or a travelater (as seen linking Heathrow terminals 2 and 3) if you are ambitious enough. Not saying that is easy or possible but probably more use and easier to construct than a heavy rail link.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I don't see how a train can compete with a few plane loads from different airports. It would have to go on a roundabout route to serve say York, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool and then Birmingham with all the attendant facilities at each.

Those getting Eurostar from London already are doing it and so are not flying. I can imagine they would be benefiting from frequent domestic train services from their various cities around the UK so might not find a single through service to be at a convenient time.

It is a bit like the UK sleeper situation. The day trains are now so fast and frequent that they have dissolved the demand for sleepers. Gone are some of the London to Scotland sleepers, gone are the Scotland to SW sleepers. A fast and frequent high speed rail network to London will cover most bases and then we should worry about a frequent shuttle between Euston and StPancras.

For Euston to StPancras a shuttle would not be a train but autonomous vehicles or mini-busses, or a travelater (as seen linking Heathrow terminals 2 and 3) if you are ambitious enough. Not saying that is easy or possible but probably more use and easier to construct than a heavy rail link.

An Edinburgh-Newcastle-York-Leeds-Doncaster-HS1-Channel Tunnel-Paris could be very successful.

 

[Peter Sarf]

An Edinburgh-Newcastle-York-Leeds-Doncaster-HS1-Channel Tunnel-Paris could be very successful.

The question is how many trains could be filled ?. Would that justify the connection and all the considerable customs and security check spaces required for the passengers at each station ?.

 

[HSTEd]

An Edinburgh-Newcastle-York-Leeds-Doncaster-HS1-Channel Tunnel-Paris could be very successful.

Such a service would require dozens of comparatively highly paid staff roles.
I can't see it being economically attractive compared to a urban gondola or similar connection between Euston and St Pancras

 

[Peter Sarf]

Such a service would require dozens of comparatively highly paid staff roles.
I can't see it being economically attractive compared to a urban gondola or similar connection between Euston and St Pancras

My bold - I like that description.

Incidentally anyone experienced the "Pods" at Heathrow terminal five ?.

Linky.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Incidentally anyone experienced the "Pods" at Heathrow terminal five ?.

Never, I always arrive by public transport.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2023 ==

Such a service would require dozens of comparatively highly paid staff roles.
I can't see it being economically attractive compared to a urban gondola or similar connection between Euston and St Pancras

With significant subsidies, it could work.

 

[SynthD]

With significant subsidies, it could work.

What’s the political reason to subsidise this, rather than the far smaller plans above to build a gondola along the length of Phoenix Rd to join up HS1/2?

 

[YorkRailFan]

What’s the political reason to subsidise this, rather than the far smaller plans above to build a gondola along the length of Phoenix Rd to join up HS1/2?

With more and more countries banning short haul flights, there is a political reason to subsidise it.

 

[SynthD]

With more and more countries banning short haul flights, there is a political reason to subsidise it.

Which of those countries subsidise the rail journey? France builds a substantial high speed network and people want to use it. I don’t know SNCF financials. We would better achieve your aims by building HS2 to the full extent, without the headline one train per day that goes all the way through.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Which of those countries subsidise the rail journey? France builds a substantial high speed network and people want to use it. I don’t know SNCF financials. We would better achieve your aims by building HS2 to the full extent, without the headline one train per day that goes all the way through.

I think that both HS2 in full and cross-channel services from other cities should happen. France hasn't subsidised trains, but for countries to make replacing short haul flights with trains affordable for passengers, subsidies must be involved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With more and more countries banning short haul flights, there is a political reason to subsidise it.

You'd gain more if you were going to put subsidy in from subsidising the fares down a bit.

As for a gondola, what a waste of money. They just need an eastern entrance to Euston Square LU then the change would be easy.

 

[HSTEd]

With significant subsidies, it could work.

But there is little reason to subsidise a through train when it would cost orders of magnitude more than improving the links between Euston and King's Cross - which won't require half empty international trains to consume precious paths on UK railway infrastructure.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The flaw with HS2 and its lack of Birmingham through station, is that a NoL Eurostar can't run from Manchester and pick up at Birmingham. I'm sure it'll fill up two-thirds of a TGV Reseau unit if it did so.

But as such a service would probably also need to call at Ebbsfleet or Ashford or both, as others have said it'll be quicker to just change in London - sadly.

 

[The Planner]

The flaw with HS2 and its lack of Birmingham through station, is that a NoL Eurostar can't run from Manchester and pick up at Birmingham. I'm sure it'll fill up two-thirds of a TGV Reseau unit if it did so.

But as such a service would probably also need to call at Ebbsfleet or Ashford or both, as others have said it'll be quicker to just change in London - sadly.

Why not? just has the journey time penalty of going to Curzon St.

 

[SynthD]

France hasn't subsidised trains, but for countries to make replacing short haul flights with trains affordable for passengers, subsidies must be involved.

But France are replacing short haul flights with trains, by force rather than appeal. In this country we're trying neither and proclaiming to be all out of ideas.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Why not? just has the journey time penalty of going to Curzon St.

Why not what?

 

[JamesT]

Why not what?

I read it as why can't a NoL Eurostar from Manchester go via Birmingham with the current HS2 layout? It would just have to reverse at Curzon Street.

 

[The Planner]

Why not what?

I read it as why can't a NoL Eurostar from Manchester go via Birmingham with the current HS2 layout? It would just have to reverse at Curzon Street.

This. It just turns right at Delta Jn, goes to Curzon St and then off to London.

 

[YorkRailFan]

You'd gain more if you were going to put subsidy in from subsidising the fares down a bit.

Of course, that's where the subsidies would go towards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2023 ==

But there is little reason to subsidise a through train when it would cost orders of magnitude more than improving the links between Euston and King's Cross - which won't require half empty international trains to consume precious paths on UK railway infrastructure.

One could argue that there is no reason to subsidise rail routes in rural areas if bus services are launched. The rail industry has to take the first step, making these changes today will ensure a better service for the public tomorrow. Additionally, this train could come from Manchester, meaning that it wouldn't be half full.

 

[Bald Rick]

An Edinburgh-Newcastle-York-Leeds-Doncaster-HS1-Channel Tunnel-Paris could be very successful.

Define “successful”.

With more and more countries banning short haul flights, there is a political reason to subsidise it.

Which countries have or are banning short haul flights?

The flaw with HS2 and its lack of Birmingham through station, is that a NoL Eurostar can't run from Manchester and pick up at Birmingham. I'm sure it'll fill up two-thirds of a TGV Reseau unit if it did so.

There is a through station, and it’s right by the airport!

 

[YorkRailFan]

Which countries have or are banning short haul flights?

France, plus Austria and Spain are looking into it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2023 ==

Define “successful”.

Enough demand to fill at least 3-4 daily trains.

 

[zwk500]

France, plus Austria and Spain are looking into it.

The French 'ban' affects a handful of people, as connecting tickets are exempt.

Enough demand to fill at least 3-4 daily trains.

Really? You think 3,000-3,500 people daily From Edinburgh, Newcastle and Leeds will want to match the 3/4 daily trains departure times instead of flying largely at their convenience. And return. It's 1tp2h from St Pancras, and King's Cross is just over the road.