Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

[Mikey C]

I'm amazed the 150s are still going with their original engines. How many miles have they done by now?

 

[DanNCL]

They’ve been in service 9 months, and can still hardly manage to get above 500 MTIN, which is abominable.

They’re still a brand new fleet. Some of the UK’s most reliable fleets were equally dire at that early stage.

Alstom has also recently (just 4 weeks ago) reorganised its legal divisions and factory in Poland, and will be exporting to multiple countries

Alstom integrates its operations in Poland to form a single company, ALSTOM Polska S.A. and solidifies its leading position in the market

Alstom has merged all the entities previously operating in Poland into one company

www.alstom.com

It is also expecting to deliver first of 37 trains for Romania next month from Konstal factory in Katowice, Poland

Alstom to deliver the first of the 37 trains to Romania in November

On November 25, Alstom will deliver to Romania the first train of the 37 RE-IR1 electric frames to be provided under the contract signed by the Railway Reform Authority (ARF) and Alstom Ferroviaria SpA in March 2022, ARF informed on October 6. This first train will serve the Bucharest-Constanta...

www.romania-insider.com

Makes me wonder if it it still needs Derby as a production site

The Coradia Stream has been produced at the Konstal site since it was launched. I think it would have been more surprising if the Romanian units weren’t to be built there.

Dedicating production of each products to a single site makes a lot of sense. For example Coradia Stream at Konstal, Traxx at Kassel, TGV at La Rochelle etc.

Derby’s role would be the Aventra, but as Bombardier ****ed it and Alstom haven’t managed to fix it they’d need something pretty radical to keep Derby going. The monorail sets they’ve being building won’t be enough on their own to keep Derby going.

Alstom has bigger issues to sort out though. Derby isn’t the only Alstom site producing crap, Hennigsdorf produced Talents that were so bad ÖBB cancelled the order after they were all built*, and their US division has delivered a load of Avelia sets to Amtrak that are full of defects. And they can’t blame Bombardier for the last one!

*there were of course other reasons why the order was cancelled too

 

[Chester1]

Alstom has also recently (just 4 weeks ago) reorganised its legal divisions and factory in Poland, and will be exporting to multiple countries

Alstom integrates its operations in Poland to form a single company, ALSTOM Polska S.A. and solidifies its leading position in the market

Alstom has merged all the entities previously operating in Poland into one company

www.alstom.com

It is also expecting to deliver first of 37 trains for Romania next month from Konstal factory in Katowice, Poland

Alstom to deliver the first of the 37 trains to Romania in November

On November 25, Alstom will deliver to Romania the first train of the 37 RE-IR1 electric frames to be provided under the contract signed by the Railway Reform Authority (ARF) and Alstom Ferroviaria SpA in March 2022, ARF informed on October 6. This first train will serve the Bucharest-Constanta...

www.romania-insider.com

Makes me wonder if it it still needs Derby as a production site

It is not a great sign. A fairly crude look at a map would indicate that there is space at Widnes to expand the facility to something between the size of CAF Newport and Hitachi Newton Aycliffe. A multi use facility with mid hundreds of assembly staff might be the level of UK production needed, especially if some of the heavier work can be moved from Derby to Crewe too. The design staff don't need to occupy a prime development site next to centre of Derby.

It wouldn't be a great outcome for Derby staff, the city or UK as a whole but Alstom isn't a charity. They would need a near monopoly on UK tenders over next decade to keep Derby at current staffing levels.

 

[Sonik]

It wouldn't be a great outcome for Derby staff, the city or UK as a whole but Alstom isn't a charity. They would need a near monopoly on UK tenders over next decade to keep Derby at current staffing levels.

The issue is that there are now too many factories, which is an entirely predictable consequence of putting relentless competition before industrial strategy. A similar situation exists in shipbuilding.

The overall market is simply not large enough for the number of players that now exist, and I don't see much evidence that intense competition produces better or cheaper trains, if anything it's the opposite as it becomes a race to the bottom with all vendors struggling to sustain their skills & industrial base. Closing well established factories and opening new ones in different places (often with regional development subsidies) is not really what I would call efficient.

 

[Mikey C]

Going back to the 80s, we had 3 major assembly plants then, BREL Derby and York, and Metro Cammell, and all survived until the drought of the mid 90s. Indeed wasn't York the main EMU construction plant then?

 

[ac6000cw]

Indeed wasn't York the main EMU construction plant then?

Yes - I think the 365's were the last EMUs built there (it was owned by ABB by then).

 

[IndianPacific]

It is not a great sign. A fairly crude look at a map would indicate that there is space at Widnes to expand the facility to something between the size of CAF Newport and Hitachi Newton Aycliffe. A multi use facility with mid hundreds of assembly staff might be the level of UK production needed, especially if some of the heavier work can be moved from Derby to Crewe too. The design staff don't need to occupy a prime development site next to centre of Derby.

It wouldn't be a great outcome for Derby staff, the city or UK as a whole but Alstom isn't a charity. They would need a near monopoly on UK tenders over next decade to keep Derby at current staffing levels.

I’m sure expanding Widnes was the plan if “actual” Alstom won HS2.

 

[Chester1]

The issue is that there are now too many factories, which is an entirely predictable consequence of putting relentless competition before industrial strategy. A similar situation exists in shipbuilding.

The overall market is simply not large enough for the number of players that now exist, and I don't see much evidence that intense competition produces better or cheaper trains, if anything it's the opposite as it becomes a race to the bottom with all vendors struggling to sustain their skills & industrial base. Closing well established factories and opening new ones in different places (often with regional development subsidies) is not really what I would call efficient.

One factory having a near monopoly on UK tenders wouldn't be efficient either. There would be little incentive to improve quality and value. There will always be significant political risk through a gap in orders.

I think there is a good comparison between train manufacture and historic car manufacture in UK. Hitachi Newton Aycliffe being Nissan Sunderland and Alstom Derby being Longbridge. Four small to medium sized assembly facilities and a good level of export of train parts would be reflective of a globalised train market. If Alstom keeps significant design work in Derby then UK PLC wouldn't lose much. Newport, Newton Aycliffe, Goole and Widnes are in poorer regions of the UK, so the move has benefits.

I’m sure expanding Widnes was the plan if “actual” Alstom won HS2.

I suspect so. I think HS2 rolling stock was tendered before the end of the transition period so was under EU procurement law. I can't see Alstom picking up UK tenders with social benefit clauses unless they have a UK factory. Widnes and Crewe would allow them to keep a foothold in the UK market while reducing their exposure. Derby is only due to do final assemby and fitting of HS2 trains and this could be done at Widnes with a reasonable investment.

 

[aem7ac]

I’d have more sympathy for the Derby site if they hadn’t just churned out so much unreliable crap. The 345s aren’t exactly shining themselves in glory. And as for the 701s…

The best Derby can hope for is that Alstom gets rid of it and a more reputable manufacture (ie Stadler) bought the site. Unlikely to happen though.

It's not just Derby.
Alstom in general is turning out unreliable crap worldwide, as evidenced here in the US.
A scathing report about Amtrak's new Avelia Liberty sets built by Alstom from Amtrak Oversight was released last week.
Many more US agencies reporting poor quality and delays from recent Bombardier/Alstom products.
Alstom is slowly throwing its reputation out the window worldwide, and that does not seem to be an exception in the UK.

 

[Snow1964]

Sunday Times is reporting 600 jobs expected to be announced this week

Hundreds of jobs are at risk at the UK’s biggest train building plant following the government’s decision to axe parts of the HS2 project.

The French train giant Alstom is preparing a statutory consultation to slash approximately 600 jobs at the Litchurch Lane Factory in Derby, The Sunday Times reported.

The engineering group has reportedly scheduled talks with unions to put in the final arrangements for a redundancy programme this week.

The company’s Litchurch Lane Works, which employs 2,000 people, was first taken over by Alstom in January 2021 as part of a £4.9bn deal with previous owner Bombardier.

The factory was set to play a key role in building 54 high speed trains for HS2, under a partnership between Alstom and Japan’s Hitachi.

But the project has been heavily scaled back after the government confirmed last month it will shelve the Manchester leg of HS2 amid spiralling costs. The line will now only run from London to Birmingham, with the connection to Euston reliant on private funding.

The Times article is behind a paywall so linking another source

HS2 train supplier Alstom set to axe hundreds of UK jobs

Hundreds of jobs are at risk at the UK's biggest train building plant following the government's decision to axe parts of HS2.

uk.finance.yahoo.com

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As I've said elsewhere, cancellation of HS2 Phase 2 is not the reason for Alstom cutbacks at Derby.
They were never due to be in production yet.
It's all about the glut of EMUs in the UK after major Aventra orders were completed.
We are back to feast or famine and having had the feast, the train-builders are about to enter the famine period.
Alstom didn't win (did they even bid?) the recent LNER EMU order which went to CAF.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

As I've said elsewhere, cancellation of HS2 Phase 2 is not the reason for Alstom cutbacks at Derby.
They were never due to be in production yet.
It's all about the glut of EMUs in the UK after major Aventra orders were completed.
We are back to feast or famine and having had the feast, the train-builders are about to enter the famine period.
Alstom didn't win (did they even bid?) the recent LNER EMU order which went to CAF.

Derby has Rolls Royce Alstom is French the outcome is obvious

 

[Mordac]

Derby has Rolls Royce Alstom is French the outcome is obvious

Sixth law of Informed Sources strikes again.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There was nothing to stop a British firm taking over BREL/Derby works in 1989.
But nobody wanted to, in fact the direction was always the other way, for a European group to take over (ie ABB/ADtranz/Bombardier/Alstom).
It's worth remembering that, before we blame the French (and Alstom is a much more diversified firm these days, than when it shut Met-Camm).
Groups like GEC and BAe also walked away from owning UK manufacturing assets, in both cases to concentrate on defence interests (with a high US potential).
Some French assets work very well for the UK, such as Airbus, despite BAe having sold its stake to the other shareholders.

 

[Snow1964]

Looks like Paintbox Transportation (a company that paints trains at Alstom Derby) is appointing Administrators

A company which paints new rail carriages at Alstom’s Litchurch Lane site in Derby is facing an uncertain future.

Paintbox Transportation Services, which is part of the Paintbox Group, has posted a notice of intention (NOI) to appointment administrators. The move gives the company around two weeks of breathing space to try and find a way forward – and protects it from creditor action.

The Paintbox Group has also posted a NOI for its Paintbox Banbury business, where it paints and assembles full vehicle and lightweight car body panels. The facility specialises in bespoke vehicle painting and coating of Carbon and composite materials.

Rail carriage painting firm facing uncertain future | TheBusinessDesk.com

Company, which provides painting services at Alstom's Derby plant, has posted a notice of intention to appointment administrators

www.thebusinessdesk.com

 

[Dan G]

So maybe Alstom Derby haven't been developing any products to follow the Aventra. Presumably the Derby site will close after the HS2 vehicle work.

 

[greyman42]

Looks like Paintbox Transportation (a company that paints trains at Alstom Derby) is appointing Administrators

Rail carriage painting firm facing uncertain future | TheBusinessDesk.com

Company, which provides painting services at Alstom's Derby plant, has posted a notice of intention to appointment administrators

www.thebusinessdesk.com

So was the painting of rail vehicles at Derby outsourced as opposed to their own tradesmen doing it, and if so, why and when?

 

[Dan G]

Shocking isn't it. Apparently Alstom don't mine the bauxite and smelt it into the aluminium they use either.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So maybe Alstom Derby haven't been developing any products to follow the Aventra. Presumably the Derby site will close after the HS2 vehicle work.

There will be plenty of trains needing building over the next 5 years or so, mostly bi/tri-modes.
The question is whether Derby can produce competitive designs to meet those requirements.
Or find export work.

As an example, the Hitachi class 802 fleet was assembled in three different locations: Kasado in Japan, Pistoia in Italy and Newton Aycliffe in Co Durham.
Could Alstom do similar with its products and include Derby in its wider production plans?

 

[YorkRailFan]

Alstom didn't win (did they even bid?) the recent LNER EMU order which went to CAF.

What would Alstom have brought to LNER? The HS2 trains are based off Hitachi trains, Alstom has nothing to offer in that space.

 

[aem7ac]

What would Alstom have brought to LNER? The HS2 trains are based off Hitachi trains, Alstom has nothing to offer in that space.

The Avelia family (which has been a nightmare for both Amtrak and SNCF after buying them) would've likely been their offering.

 

[YorkRailFan]

The Avelia family (which has been a nightmare for both Amtrak and SNCF after buying them) would've likely been their offering.

Single deck version then. LNER wouldn't have taken them on most likely with the Aveilas having locos at each end.

 

[aem7ac]

Single deck version then. LNER wouldn't have taken them on most likely with the Aveilas having locos at each end.

Amtrak bought a single deck version. Either way, you are correct, and seeing Alstom's track record with them so far it probably would've been an automatic no-go.

 

[stuu]

Single deck version then. LNER wouldn't have taken them on most likely with the Aveilas having locos at each end.

Their Coradia trains would have been much more suitable than something designed for 300+ km/h. Although obviously they have never made a UK sized one

 

[43096]

Their Coradia trains would have been much more suitable than something designed for 300+ km/h. Although obviously they have never made a UK sized one

Classes 175 and 180 are Coradias.

 

[fgwrich]

So was the painting of rail vehicles at Derby outsourced as opposed to their own tradesmen doing it, and if so, why and when?

Some of it was - the body shells were painted in the large Litchurch Lane spray booth, but it seems the cab ends were painted offsite (presumably at this place) then delivered to site for bolting up.

 

[Snow1964]

Their Coradia trains would have been much more suitable than something designed for 300+ km/h. Although obviously they have never made a UK sized one

Although they do have the BEMU version for Ireland, which is similar size, but different rail gauge

 

[YorkRailFan]

Their Coradia trains would have been much more suitable than something designed for 300+ km/h. Although obviously they have never made a UK sized one

Only Coradias in the UK are the 180s and 175s, though I doubt that LNER would have gone for that.

 

[QSK19]

Only Coradias in the UK are the 180s and 175s, though I doubt that LNER would have gone for that.

Well, I believe a couple of the ex-EMR 180s are parked up… just in case LNER get really desperate

 

[YorkRailFan]

Well, I believe a couple of the ex-EMR 180s are parked up… just in case LNER get really desperate

They would keep on the IC225s in that case.