December 2023 Timetable Change

[175001]

Reported on Twitter that EMR are shaking up diagrams on the Liverpool - Norwich that'll see more 170s on the route with some running as 6 cars between Nottingham and Liverpool.

 

[louis97]

Reported on Twitter that EMR are shaking up diagrams on the Liverpool - Norwich that'll see more 170s on the route with some running as 6 cars between Nottingham and Liverpool.

Its just one return working to Liverpool as a trial Monday to Friday. 0635 Nottingham-Liverpool and 0951 Liverpool-Norwich (3 car beyond Nottingham and for the rest of the diagram).

 

[Kite159]

Shame it's not on a Saturday where 6 coaches between Liverpool & Nottingham would be more useful

 

[louis97]

Shame it's not on a Saturday where 6 coaches between Liverpool & Nottingham would be more useful

I thought exactly the same, especially given the 0852 departure from Liverpool, like the morning and evening missing Crewe services, isn't returning on a Saturday.

 

[Llandudno]

But which train has the most seats..
6 Car Class 170
or
4 Car Class 158

 

[Kite159]

But which train has the most seats..
6 Car Class 170
or
4 Car Class 158

And a 170 has a larger area for standing passengers (and is much better at dealing with the 90% turnover those services have in Manchester with the wider doors.

 

[hexagon789]

But which train has the most seats..
6 Car Class 170
or
4 Car Class 158

The exact number of seats will depend on layout, but a 6-car 170 formation seats considerably more than a 4-car 158 formation; even if the 170 has First Class sections still fitted and merely declassified.

(An all Std 170 seats about 200 or so, if it has First Class both ends, it's about 190 seats. 158s are usually about 134-138 depending on layout.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

As someone who has in previous years made pretty extensive use of this service when it's been 158s and 170s in Central Trains days, I'd definitely say the 170 is a better fit. It's not an intercity service - it's a load of semifast local services strung together with a LOT of passenger turnover. I recall the 0749 off Lime St taking nearly 10 minutes to unload at Oxford Road in 158 days, the 170 would definitely solve that.

The lack of gangway is a pain, but being 2 coaches longer and doors at quarters will really help.

As for a trolley, does it even still have one? They're pretty rare these days.

 

[jojoseph72]

Does anyone have an explanation for the additional Thameslink service to East Grinstead?
The 7:03 Bedford - Three Bridges will now instead run to EGR and form a new 9:14 service back into London.

I’m sure there’s a valid reason but, does seem weird with it being outside the peak services they run.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

being outside the peak services they run.

Will almost certainly cater for the high proportion of people travelling just after the conclusion of peak to save money.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Does anyone have an explanation for the additional Thameslink service to East Grinstead?
The 7:03 Bedford - Three Bridges will now instead run to EGR and form a new 9:14 service back into London.

I’m sure there’s a valid reason but, does seem weird with it being outside the peak services they run.

It's mainly for providing an additional route knowledge opportunity for the East Grinstead line.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does anyone have an explanation for the additional Thameslink service to East Grinstead?
The 7:03 Bedford - Three Bridges will now instead run to EGR and form a new 9:14 service back into London.

I’m sure there’s a valid reason but, does seem weird with it being outside the peak services they run.

It's mainly for providing an additional route knowledge opportunity for the East Grinstead line.

It‘s mainly to releive the Bedford to Thameslink services either side of it (9R05 and 9T13) which are aboslutely heaving M-Th. 9T13 is even getting to the point of sllsests being taken on Fridays!

Sending it to E Grinstead is purely for convenience.

 

[ChrisC]

I thought exactly the same, especially given the 0852 departure from Liverpool, like the morning and evening missing Crewe services, isn't returning on a Saturday.

It’s Saturdays when the 0852 departure from Liverpool is really needed. It’s the missing train further along the route from Manchester and especially between Sheffield and Nottingham where the real problems occur on busy Saturday mornings. With that EMR service missing, the 2 carriage hourly Northern Leeds to Nottingham trains are not adequate south of Sheffield mid morning on Saturday. Passengers trying to board at Alfreton, Langley Mill and Ilkeston get left behind.

 

[DaveN]

It‘s mainly to releive the Bedford to Thameslink services either side of it (9R05 and 9T13) which are aboslutely heaving M-Th. 9T13 is even getting to the point of sllsests being taken on Fridays!

Sending it to E Grinstead is purely for convenience.

The change on the north side is actually that the 0715 Bedford to Three Bridges gets reinstated and the 0711 Bedford to Elephant & Castle starts from Luton like it used to.

 

[Lewisham2221]

It’s Saturdays when the 0852 departure from Liverpool is really needed. It’s the missing train further along the route from Manchester and especially between Sheffield and Nottingham where the real problems occur on busy Saturday mornings. With that EMR service missing, the 2 carriage hourly Northern Leeds to Nottingham trains are not adequate south of Sheffield mid morning on Saturday. Passengers trying to board at Alfreton, Langley Mill and Ilkeston get left behind.

What is EMR's excuse for services like this and the missing Crewe trains still not running? There's clearly demand for them.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

What is EMR's excuse for services like this and the missing Crewe trains still not running? There's clearly demand for them.

Because those services aren’t specified by the DfT to operate. It’s not EMR’s choice.

Just because something ran before Covid doesn’t necessarily mean DfT want it to run post Covid.

 

[Jamesrob637]

As someone who has in previous years made pretty extensive use of this service when it's been 158s and 170s in Central Trains days, I'd definitely say the 170 is a better fit. It's not an intercity service - it's a load of semifast local services strung together with a LOT of passenger turnover. I recall the 0749 off Lime St taking nearly 10 minutes to unload at Oxford Road in 158 days, the 170 would definitely solve that.

The lack of gangway is a pain, but being 2 coaches longer and doors at quarters will really help.

As for a trolley, does it even still have one? They're pretty rare these days.

An EMR I took from Stockport to Sheffield at the beginning of September had a trolley.

 

[JW4]

An EMR I took from Stockport to Sheffield at the beginning of September had a trolley.

Same for me in October (158)

 

[LowLevel]

What is EMR's excuse for services like this and the missing Crewe trains still not running? There's clearly demand for them.

DfT don't want to fund them all in one go, I suspect. They might be busy but they're not really profit makers.

 

[Killingworth]

As someone who has in previous years made pretty extensive use of this service when it's been 158s and 170s in Central Trains days, I'd definitely say the 170 is a better fit. It's not an intercity service - it's a load of semifast local services strung together with a LOT of passenger turnover. I recall the 0749 off Lime St taking nearly 10 minutes to unload at Oxford Road in 158 days, the 170 would definitely solve that.

The lack of gangway is a pain, but being 2 coaches longer and doors at quarters will really help.

As for a trolley, does it even still have one? They're pretty rare these days.

Several reasons why they may appear rare, not least shortage of staff to cover all trains at all points along the route.

On a Saturday I've seen two trolleys on the platform at Sheffield unable to get aboard successive trains that were too rammed to get any more passengers aboard let alone a trolley.

No matter how empty or full the return service were it would also have had no catering.

A minority of staff have no selling skills, maybe an inbuilt resistance to sales. On a recent journey from Liverpool I was wishing to buy a drink. No signs of a trolley - possibly knock on effect like above. After Manchester the trolley whizzed past me from behind and sold to nobody in the carriage, disappearing into the front vestibule. I expected it to re-emerge for a return pass but it didn't. After a while I walked forward and asked if I could buy a coffee. Apparently not, I'd have to wait until she came back. She came back more slowly and I had to wait while she served 4 or 5 people before she got to me. Initially she clearly wasn't expecting to sell, so didn't.

Which brought back memories of an early HST ride down to Cardiff or Bristol about 1977 on business. The very smart young lady was air hostess modelled, stopping at every seat. 'Would you like tea or coffee, sir?' We couldn't resist. She was selling to everyone. She expected to sell turning initial 'no thank you's into 'go on, if you have a hot chocolate I'll have one of them' responses. Most Rail Gourmet staff are not in that class, but some aren't too far away.

A double 170 will have the same problem as TPE with double 185s. A single unit can be too rammed for a trolley to get in, let alone get through. Same number of passengers spread through a 6 car and the trolley may not even be in the fuller of the two so sells to very few.

The economics of it all are - challenging!

 

[AlbertBeale]

It‘s mainly to releive the Bedford to Thameslink services either side of it (9R05 and 9T13) which are aboslutely heaving M-Th. 9T13 is even getting to the point of sllsests being taken on Fridays!

Sending it to E Grinstead is purely for convenience.

sllsests??

 

[Jamesrob637]

sllsests??

All seats - possible tipsy or fast typing!

 

[TheBigD]

But which train has the most seats..
6 Car Class 170
or
4 Car Class 158

2x2 car EMR 158 has 284 seats.
3x3 car EMR 170/4* has 372 seats.
Both have a small number of tip up seats in the vestibules.

*170/2 3 car has a different layout and seat count (I think it's higher but not 100% sure)

I'm sure someone will full in the blanks/correct the errors...

EMR 170s...
170/2 2 car 119 seats
170/5 2 car 122 seats
170/2 3 car 188 seats (not 100% sure)
170/4 3 car 186 seats.

A fair few units have the tip up seats near the disabled area out of use as they are knackered

Not sure if the 170/4s that went to Southern before EMR have retained their original scotrail interior layout.

 

[LowLevel]

Several reasons why they may appear rare, not least shortage of staff to cover all trains at all points along the route.

On a Saturday I've seen two trolleys on the platform at Sheffield unable to get aboard successive trains that were too rammed to get any more passengers aboard let alone a trolley.

No matter how empty or full the return service were it would also have had no catering.

A minority of staff have no selling skills, maybe an inbuilt resistance to sales. On a recent journey from Liverpool I was wishing to buy a drink. No signs of a trolley - possibly knock on effect like above. After Manchester the trolley whizzed past me from behind and sold to nobody in the carriage, disappearing into the front vestibule. I expected it to re-emerge for a return pass but it didn't. After a while I walked forward and asked if I could buy a coffee. Apparently not, I'd have to wait until she came back. She came back more slowly and I had to wait while she served 4 or 5 people before she got to me. Initially she clearly wasn't expecting to sell, so didn't.

Which brought back memories of an early HST ride down to Cardiff or Bristol about 1977 on business. The very smart young lady was air hostess modelled, stopping at every seat. 'Would you like tea or coffee, sir?' We couldn't resist. She was selling to everyone. She expected to sell turning initial 'no thank you's into 'go on, if you have a hot chocolate I'll have one of them' responses. Most Rail Gourmet staff are not in that class, but some aren't too far away.

A double 170 will have the same problem as TPE with double 185s. A single unit can be too rammed for a trolley to get in, let alone get through. Same number of passengers spread through a 6 car and the trolley may not even be in the fuller of the two so sells to very few.

The economics of it all are - challenging!

You know what they say about paying peanuts. There are some absolutely superb RG hosts who I would have working as guards or in first class tomorrow who are underpaid and under appreciated.

There are also terrible ones, but then the hours and conditions don't exactly encourage them.

 

[Kite159]

You know what they say about paying peanuts. There are some absolutely superb RG hosts who I would have working as guards or in first class tomorrow who are underpaid and under appreciated.

There are also terrible ones, but then the hours and conditions don't exactly encourage them.

I guess it's the same as when SWR had catering on the West of England line services before Covid, some trolley hosts were better than others at selling products & making multiple passes throughout the journey, whereas some did one pass before locating to one of the larger vestibules not lasting that long in the job (I can recall the catering contractor at Salisbury were nearly always recruiting new staff)

 

[43074]

The change on the north side is actually that the 0715 Bedford to Three Bridges gets reinstated and the 0711 Bedford to Elephant & Castle starts from Luton like it used to.

There's also an additional 12-car in the mix as well, the 0733 from Bedford becomes a 12-car which returns in the evening peak at 1653 from Gatwick (1741 from St Pancras).

The reinstatement of the 0715 means the core has 21tph arriving at St Pancras between 0735 and 0835.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The reinstatement of the 0715 means the core has 21tph arriving at St Pancras between 0735 and 0835.

Is that as many as it's ever had back in 2019?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is that as many as it's ever had back in 2019?

Yes, there was a spell of 22tph.

 

[A S Leib]

I don't know if it's already been mentioned, but Wrexham Central–Bidston is going to ~every 45 minutes with Hawarden Bridge a request stop.

 

[Verulamius]

Yes, there was a spell of 22tph.

Next reinstatement would be a 7.45 from Bedford forming a 8.18 fast from St Albans?