1992 stock Refurbishment?

[Basil Jet]

The moquette seems to be made of a combination of the Underground roundel and the Metropolitan Railway logo, which is a curious choice for trains that will only ever run on the Central Line (and perhaps the Waterloo & City). You can see the old logo here...

 

[Goldfish62]

The moquette seems to be made of a combination of the Underground roundel and the Metropolitan Railway logo, which is a curious choice for trains that will only ever run on the Central Line (and perhaps the Waterloo & City). You can see the old logo here...

Yes, definitely a lot of heritage in the moquette.

I also picked up on it being grey, red and black, same as the 1962 stock.

Thank goodness it wasn't another iteration of Barman!

 

[bramling]

Wouldn't be surprised if the originals have survived on the W&C but not the Central, due to the difference in 'clientele' on the two lines - the W&C customers being less inclined to kick them hard enough to break them off!

As CCTV has been added, I hope that the risk of potential vandalism is now no longer an excuse to not add stuff like armrests to the trains.

Is there any real need for armrests. We seem to have managed quite well without them since the mid-90s.

 

[Goldfish62]

Is there any real need for armrests. We seem to have managed quite well without them since the mid-90s.

I knew someone would question it because that's the nature of this forum!

In that vein there's probably no need for the entire refurbishment!

 

[Nym]

Wouldn't be surprised if the originals have survived on the W&C but not the Central, due to the difference in 'clientele' on the two lines - the W&C customers being less inclined to kick them hard enough to break them off!

As CCTV has been added, I hope that the risk of potential vandalism is now no longer an excuse to not add stuff like armrests to the trains.

CCTV does basically nothing to prevent vandalism on LUL.

This business case is not formed around any kind of reduction in vandalism.

 

[bramling]

I knew someone would question it because that's the nature of this forum!

In that vein there's probably no need for the entire refurbishment!

The refurbishment is mainly driven by the need to address the chronic unreliability of the trains and to achieve compliance with accessibility requirements, both of which have an effect on the service provided to the end user. Do we *really* think that the lack of armrests has the same negative effect? Does the average user even notice?

 

[Snow1964]

The refurbishment is mainly driven by the need to address the chronic unreliability of the trains and to achieve compliance with accessibility requirements, both of which have an effect on the service provided to the end user. Do we *really* think that the lack of armrests has the same negative effect? Does the average user even notice?

It depends if the armrests are part of the safety system, bit like car seatbelts. If part of their job is to stop everyone sliding sideways into a heap in the event of a crash, then shouldn't be missing.

If however they are more decorative, aesthetic and nice to have, then no not required.

 

[Goldfish62]

The refurbishment is mainly driven by the need to address the chronic unreliability of the trains and to achieve compliance with accessibility requirements, both of which have an effect on the service provided to the end user. Do we *really* think that the lack of armrests has the same negative effect? Does the average user even notice?

The lack of armrests results in people spreading across seats and leaning into other passengers with the heavy braking on those trains. They serve a distinct function and that's why TfL specify them for longitudinal seats.

My view is that the limited budget has prevented any plan for reinstatement, whereas if I understand your view it's that they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

 

[Recessio]

It depends if the armrests are part of the safety system, bit like car seatbelts. If part of their job is to stop everyone sliding sideways into a heap in the event of a crash, then shouldn't be missing.

If however they are more decorative, aesthetic and nice to have, then no not required.

In that case though, armrests would do nothing for the standing passengers, so I doubt it's a safety thing.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

Also has anybody noticed that the door chimes have been converted back to their original state, due to them now making multiple beeps when opening and one prolonged beep for the full duration of the closure. While prior to refurbishment it was just one short beep when opening and closing.

The original door chimes were modified in 1995 to improve the timings of the Janet Mayo announcements at stations and to also reduce dwell times, as often Mayo would play “This is XX” just as the doors were closing and the ” This train terminates at XX“ announcement would play just as the train started to move and often it was triggerd twice, which still occasionally occurs to this day.

 

[bramling]

The lack of armrests results in people spreading across seats and leaning into other passengers with the heavy braking on those trains. They serve a distinct function and that's why TfL specify them for longitudinal seats.

My view is that the limited budget has prevented any plan for reinstatement, whereas if I understand your view it's that they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Personally I prefer the trains without them. Especially for a line with long sections in the open, it gives the opportunity to face forwards when the train is lightly loaded. I value that, hence am quite happy if they’re not reinstated. And as we have managed quite happily since the trains were almost new, one has to question if spending money on armrests is a good use of what is now extremely scarce money.

Also has anybody noticed that the door chimes have been converted back to their original state, due to them now making multiple beeps when opening and one prolonged beep for the full duration of the closure. While prior to refurbishment it was just one short beep when opening and closing.

The original door chimes were modified in 1995 to improve the timings of the Janet Mayo announcements at stations and to also reduce dwell times, as often Mayo would play “This is XX” just as the doors were closing and the ” This train terminates at XX“ announcement would play just as the train started to move and often it was triggerd twice, which still occasionally occurs to this day.

I noticed the tone has reverted. It feels rather retro as the trains didn’t last long at all in that state when new.

 

[boiledbeans2]

What type of motor does the refurbished train have? The latest PMSMs or the traditional induction motors?

 

[Dstock7080]

Bombardier Mitrac, similar to 2009/S Stock

 

[RacsoMoquette]

It is intresting if the reverted beeps will increase station dwell times as now the is a gap of at least five seconds between door opening and Adrian Heiett playing.

 

[357]

It is intresting if the reverted beeps will increase station dwell times as now the is a gap of at least five seconds between door opening and Adrian Heiett playing.

I would doubt it even normally, however they may be reduced because of the screens. At any point a passenger can now look up from their phone and see where they are, so less people are likely to be shocked that they've arrived at their station.

 

[Mikey C]

Personally I prefer the trains without them. Especially for a line with long sections in the open, it gives the opportunity to face forwards when the train is lightly loaded. I value that, hence am quite happy if they’re not reinstated. And as we have managed quite happily since the trains were almost new, one has to question if spending money on armrests is a good use of what is now extremely scarce money.

A more accurate description surely would be that we've put up with no armrests since the trains were almost new... Just as we put up with the low and uncomfortable seating of the 92s.

 

[Silent]

Bombardier Mitrac, similar to 2009/S Stock

They appear to actually sound milder than the s stocks motors in the YouTube videos I’ve watched. I may be wrong though.

 

[thomalex]

The moquette seems to be made of a combination of the Underground roundel and the Metropolitan Railway logo, which is a curious choice for trains that will only ever run on the Central Line (and perhaps the Waterloo & City). You can see the old logo here...

I think it might be a nod to some of the diamond pattern in the original 92 stock moquette, you also have diamonds used elsewhere such as on the Victoria moquette.

I hope we get a press release or interview where the design is explained as there's usually more details in these designs than you initially expect.

 

[D365]

What type of motor does the refurbished train have? The latest PMSMs or the traditional induction motors?

Please expand on the abbreviation.

 

[rebmcr]

Please expand on the abbreviation.

Permanent Magnet Synchronous Motor

 

[leytongabriel]

Wouldn't be surprised if the originals have survived on the W&C but not the Central, due to the difference in 'clientele' on the two lines - the W&C customers being less inclined to kick them hard enough to break them off!

As CCTV has been added, I hope that the risk of potential vandalism is now no longer an excuse to not add stuff like armrests to the trains.

They looked tatty really quickly without any 'help' from passengers. The moquette rubbed away (as it does with little padding underneath) and the enamel chipped.

 

[boiledbeans2]

Bombardier Mitrac, similar to 2009/S Stock

I did examine the Bombardier Mitrac system before posting as it was mentioned earlier in this thread.

But the Bombardier Mitrac seems to be a very generic name for its propulsion system and includes both asynchronous (induction) motors and the newer PMSMs.

For example, in this conference publication, on page 13, Bombardier lists the MITRAC TM 3700F as an "air cooled, three phase asynchronous motor"

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/561e6ed5e4b039248a6a94aa/t/565f6971e4b0860912bcf10c/1449093489348/ALP-45DP+Locomotie+Paper-2008.pdf

While in this presentation, Bombardier explains their new (at that time) MITRAC PM motors, with slide 9 listing some ongoing projects (at that time).

http://www.gronataget.se/upload/PM%20motors%20for%20railway%20applications.pdf

From wiki, the S stock uses asynchronous (induction) motors. However, they are already more than 10 years old, so I was wondering if the 1992 stock uses the newer PMSM technology.

 

[100andthirty]

To the best of my knowledge asynchronous induction motors are used on retractioned 1992 tube stock.

Siemens use their own permanent magnet AC motors on 2024 tube stock where each motor has its own inverter

 

[Busman]

This is not a comprehensive refurb, yeah, they've replaced the flooring, cleaned exterior a bit, changed the moquette and added visual screens. In one video, you can still see chipped pain on the doors, there are gaping holes and gaps where the cab is on the passenger wall side. So yeah, not overly impressed to be honest.

This is in no way as drastic and transformative as that of the District and Picc lines were years ago.

 

[Recessio]

I'm glad they prioritised adding CCTV, wheelchair space and passenger information screens than painting, given the budget restrictions. Hopefully they can find some additional budget in future (perhaps from reduced maintenance costs) to finish the rest of the refurb.

But I think they've done an excellent job given the tight budget restrictions they seemed to have had.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Bombardier Mitrac, similar to 2009/S Stock

Although it must be said that it doesn't sound a bit like the 2009 stock (the sound of which I usually describe as like an Electrostar on steroids). It is an almost identical sound to the S Stock taking off though.

 

[Silent]

This is not a comprehensive refurb, yeah, they've replaced the flooring, cleaned exterior a bit, changed the moquette and added visual screens. In one video, you can still see chipped pain on the doors, there are gaping holes and gaps where the cab is on the passenger wall side. So yeah, not overly impressed to be honest.

This is in no way as drastic and transformative as that of the District and Picc lines were years ago.

For me though, although I’m of different opinion and you can have yours. I feel the refurb feeds on my nostalgia, funnily enough nostalgia is probably a bigger thing than it was in the 90’s/early 00’s. It’s makes the refurb look good that it was subtle.

 

[Lockwood]

Nostalgia isn't what it used to be

 

[Goldfish62]

This is not a comprehensive refurb, yeah, they've replaced the flooring, cleaned exterior a bit, changed the moquette and added visual screens. In one video, you can still see chipped pain on the doors, there are gaping holes and gaps where the cab is on the passenger wall side. So yeah, not overly impressed to be honest.

This is in no way as drastic and transformative as that of the District and Picc lines were years ago.

Have to agree, but it was done on an extremely restricted budget. I'm sure TfL would have done a lot more were the funding available.

 

[Samzino]

Although it must be said that it doesn't sound a bit like the 2009 stock (the sound of which I usually describe as like an Electrostar on steroids). It is an almost identical sound to the S Stock taking off though.

The Vic picks up faster acceleration wise so the frequency sounds different but at the same acceleration and gearing they'd be somewhat similar