Excessive Refund Fraud - AWC

[cappiskoepka]

Hi there,

So i’ve just received an email from AWC claiming that there’s a potential fraud due to the excessive refund claims being submitted. I usually bulk buy tickets in advance for office/personal travels (for myself and/or on behalf of someone else) but there are quite a lot of times where plans do change (sickness, strikes, etc) when the time comes. Hence, i’ve submitted refunds in bulk once every month for all the unused, untravelled tickets (not used but unscanned or delay repay fraud) which, i believe i’m fully eligible and entitled for the refunds.

i’ve replied stating the reasons aforementioned and i was wondering, anyone been in the same situation? If so, how does it play out after the first reply? I know a lot people here would rather not reply to not incriminate oneself but i would rather get this over with since i’m not in any wrong here.

Appreciate any thoughts

 

[island]

You must understand that this is a highly abnormal way of doing things. Normal people do not bulk-buy single/return tickets that they may or may not use, because of the £10 refund fee. So Avanti will be finding this suspicious.

What exactly does the letter say? Does it say they’re cutting off your access to automated refunds and will have to go via customer service in future? Or are they threatening potential prosecution? Your next steps will depend heavily on this.

 

[MotCO]

(not used but unscanned or delay repay fraud)

Because of the vagaries of the English language, it took me a little while to work out what this meant, and wonder, if you used the same expression to the rail company, it may have confused them as well. Maybe use of quotation marks might help - not 'used but unscanned' nor 'delay repay fraud'.

The other thing is do you board or depart at unbarriered stations? The rail company may think that you could board a train and leave without having to scan your ticket or show to a ticket inspector.

 

[cappiskoepka]

You must understand that this is a highly abnormal way of doing things. Normal people do not bulk-buy single/return tickets that they may or may not use, because of the £10 refund fee. So Avanti will be finding this suspicious.

What exactly does the letter say? Does it say they’re cutting off your access to automated refunds and will have to go via customer service in future? Or are they threatening potential prosecution? Your next steps will depend heavily on this.

They said:

“
Working with various industry systems and data, we have identified that you have submitted a significant number of refunds for travel on Avanti West Coast Services. The number of refunds has highlighted your Trainline transactions leading to further investigation.

We understand that mistakes can happen, and it is possible there may be a misunderstanding or error in our records. Our aim is to ensure that our processes are transparent and fair to all our valued customers.

…

Based on your response the decision will be to either (a) offer you the opportunity to repay any funds relating to claims that you have not been entitled to make; (b) pass your file to our prosecuting services or the British Transport Police for further action to be taken; or (c) to close the case and cease any further investigations into your transactions.”

Because of the vagaries of the English language, it took me a little while to work out what this meant, and wonder, if you used the same expression to the rail company, it may have confused them as well. Maybe use of quotation marks might help - not 'used but unscanned' nor 'delay repay fraud'.

The other thing is do you board or depart at unbarriered stations? The rail company may think that you could board a train and leave without having to scan your ticket or show to a ticket inspector.

The journey simply never happened, so there’s no boarding or departing at any stations at all.

I bought the tickets, did not show up, applied for refund afterwards as the tickets were not used at all - hopefully this makes more sense?

 

[30907]

The journey simply never happened, so there’s no boarding or departing at any stations at all.
I bought the tickets, did not show up, applied for refund afterwards as the tickets were not used at all - hopefully this makes more sense?

I think this slightly misses the point - on those occasions when you or your colleague actually travel using Avanti, do you start or finish at an unbarriered station (eg in the GM suburbs)?

Perhaps you should reply with an attached letter with your business header, confirming that your/your colleague's trips were frequently cancelled and that you can demonstrate (on request) from the work diary that you/they did not travel on the dates when you claimed refunds.
Obviously it is more difficult to do this for personal journeys.

Incidentally, do you travel with other TOCs or are all your trips up and down the West Coast route?

 

[172007]

Thinking about this. If I was AWC I would go to court* and let them sort it out. In the balance of probability it seems tickets are bought, if not scanned or used through the barrier then refunded. How many people buy too much of anything and then when they don't use / eat it are happy with a £10 refund penalty. Just does not happen in the real world to be honest unless someone here cab think of an example.

Very sorry but that's my take on it.

*if the tickets were bought for work colleagues at the start of the month then the company legal department should represent you and bring copies of emails to demonstrate cancelled meeting etc. In that scenario there would surely be a straight forward evidential paper chain.

 

[cappiskoepka]

I think this slightly misses the point - on those occasions when you or your colleague actually travel using Avanti, do you start or finish at an unbarriered station (eg in the GM suburbs)?

Perhaps you should reply with an attached letter with your business header, confirming that your/your colleague's trips were frequently cancelled and that you can demonstrate (on request) from the work diary that you/they did not travel on the dates when you claimed refunds.
Obviously it is more difficult to do this for personal journeys.

Incidentally, do you travel with other TOCs or are all your trips up and down the West Coast route?

Ah sorry! I get what you mean now. The stations where i board and depart are barriered stations - maybe only once out of the ten times i travel the barrier is open regardless if that makes sense? Even then, i have not submitted such ticket (travelled but unscanned) for refunds. All the refunds i’ve submitted are totally unused tickets, as in i’ve not travelled at all.

Re business trips, that would practically be impossible as my company do not hold records of employees coming in so highly unlikely they would provide any confirmation on trips happening/cancelling - more of a company policy where if you want to come in, by all means, if not, suit yourself - work at home. Be it business travels or personal, shouldn’t it be AWC the one proving any alleged wrongdoings instead of me clearing it?

And yes, i do travel with Northern and Transpennine as well - does this help in any way?

Thinking about this. If I was AWC I would go to court* and let them sort it out. In the balance of probability it seems tickets are bought, if not scanned or used through the barrier then refunded. How many people buy too much of anything and then when they don't use / eat it are happy with a £10 refund penalty. Just does not happen in the real world to be honest unless someone here cab think of an example.

Very sorry but that's my take on it.

*if the tickets were bought for work colleagues at the start of the month then the company legal department should represent you and bring copies of emails to demonstrate cancelled meeting etc. In that scenario there would surely be a straight forward evidential paper chain.

I totally understand where you’re coming from but the £10 refund penalty might not seem “normal” but, that’s not wrong isn’t it? I like to plan things in advance and my intention was just rather pay £10 for admin fee (i don’t think trainline label it as a “penalty” per se) if said ticket is not needed in the end than missing out on tickets/prices going up.

As mentioned in another response of mine, there’s no paper chain or whatsoever regarding business travels as it’s just me voluntarily heading into office whenever - company doesnt keep track on who’s in or not and employees don’t need to inform beforehand regarding last minute changes.

In any case, shouldn’t it be AWC proving that there’s some wrongdoing on my end instead of me clearing my name? I don’t know what and how can i prove to them that i didn’t get on the train and was staying at home lol

 

[John R]

I’m a bit confused as to whether these are just tickets that you would use, or ones that you are buying for other people? Also, is your company reimbursing you for the journeys undertaken? And finally, is the company aware that you have been buying and refunding tickets?

It all does sound very unusual, and I would definitely discuss with your employer before responding.

I like to plan things in advance and my intention was just rather pay £10 for admin fee (i don’t think trainline label it as a “penalty” per se) if said ticket is not needed in the end than missing out on tickets/prices going up.

The only tickets for which you run the risk of the price increasing are Advance tickets, but these are non-refundable. So this explanation doesn’t make any sense to me.

 

[cappiskoepka]

I’m a bit confused as to whether these are just tickets that you would use, or ones that you are buying for other people? Also, is your company reimbursing you for the journeys undertaken? And finally, is the company aware that you have been buying and refunding tickets?

It all does sound very unusual, and I would definitely discuss with your employer before responding.

Mixture of personal and those on behalf of others - does this affect anything? My company is not reimbursing and unaware of anything going on as they could care less of how i travel and whether even if i was in the office or not.

I’m a bit confused as to whether these are just tickets that you would use, or ones that you are buying for other people? Also, is your company reimbursing you for the journeys undertaken? And finally, is the company aware that you have been buying and refunding tickets?

It all does sound very unusual, and I would definitely discuss with your employer before responding.


The only tickets for which you run the risk of the price increasing are Advance tickets, but these are non-refundable. So this explanation doesn’t make any sense to me.

I usually get the early bird any time single, which is not available if you buy closer to the time traveling.

 

[Llanigraham]

I'm confused.
Are these tickets bought for employees undertaking journeys in respect of work away from the office, or are they bought for people just coming in to the office to work (commuting)?

 

[reb0118]

Regardless your employer not caring whether you physically turn up at the office or not (as long as the work gets done) surely there must be a register or log in book - at the very least for fire regulations - for those that do?....

You are correct in that Avanti has to prove their case against you to an acceptable standard but any credible evidence that you can provide for your own defence could see this case stopping before it gets anywhere near a court.

 

[cappiskoepka]

I'm confused.
Are these tickets bought for employees undertaking journeys in respect of work away from the office, or are they bought for people just coming in to the office to work (commuting)?

Just commuting in to office for work - not work away from office. Does this make any difference?

Regardless your employer not caring whether you physically turn up at the office or not (as long as the work gets done) surely there must be a register or log in book - at the very least for fire regulations - for those that do?....

You are correct in that Avanti has to prove their case against you to an acceptable standard but any credible evidence that you can provide for your own defence could see this case stopping before it gets anywhere near a court.

There is no register, log in book, or anything similar unfortunately to prove my location…

I’m just struggling to figure out how can i prove that i’ve not taken the train and not one that applied for refund when obviously they’ve taken the trip but just not scanned.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Which company do you apply for the refund from? Are you refunding them from trainline or applying to avanti for a refund?

 

[cappiskoepka]

Which company do you apply for the refund from? Are you refunding them from trainline or applying to avanti for a refund?

Done through trainline.

 

[Haywain]

One might wonder why you wait until the end of the month to apply for refunds and incur the £10 admin fee rather than apying as soon as you know that you are not travelling (presumably on the day or even before). To an outsider or investigator this might be explained by using a ticket and applying for a refund because it isn't scanned. And, aside fromthat, why do you feel the need to mention Delay Repay fraud?

 

[fandroid]

I think you should write back and simply tell them that you appreciate that the bulk buying and claiming back is an unusual strategy but that all of your refund claims have been for tickets that have actually not been used for travel.

Don't get into complicated dialogues about individual journeys or buying for others. It's up to them to provide real evidence of you travelling and making false refund claims. From your statements to us they won't be able find anything at all

 

[cappiskoepka]

One might wonder why you wait until the end of the month to apply for refunds and incur the £10 admin fee rather than apying as soon as you know that you are not travelling (presumably on the day or even before). To an outsider or investigator this might be explained by using a ticket and applying for a refund because it isn't scanned. And, aside fromthat, why do you feel the need to mention Delay Repay fraud?

Firstly, i don’t think i’ve mentioned ever that all my fillings are at the end of the month - i usually file it once a month so at the date of filling some ticket might be filed for refund, as you said, a day before or the day itself or days after.

Secondly, i mentioned Delay Repay fraud just to prevent any confusion as that’s what kept popping in my search results when i tried to find answers to my issue before posting.

Hopefully this clears thing up!

I think you should write back and simply tell them that you appreciate that the bulk buying and claiming back is an unusual strategy but that all of your refund claims have been for tickets that have actually not been used for travel.

Don't get into complicated dialogues about individual journeys or buying for others. It's up to them to provide real evidence of you travelling and making false refund claims. From your statements to us they won't be able find anything at all

When i received their email, i made the mistake of getting into complicated dialogues (reasons of not traveling and bulk buying, etc) as i was taken aback when all i’ve been filing are genuine and legitimate refund claims…

I just hope this doesn’t get any further than just email correspondence and as one of the members said, even though it’s their responsibility to prove wrongdoing, i don’t want this to drag any longer than it needs to be.

 

[185143]

Mixture of personal and those on behalf of others - does this affect anything? My company is not reimbursing and unaware of anything going on as they could care less of how i travel and whether even if i was in the office or not.


I usually get the early bird any time single, which is not available if you buy closer to the time traveling.

This could be a significant detail.

I'm making the assumption these tickets are somewhat cheaper than regular anytime singles? Therefore it may be financially beneficial to buy them and risk losing £10 as an admin fee than lingering and having to pay full price? Just a thought.

Are all of the refunded tickets early bird anytime?

 

[cappiskoepka]

This could be a significant detail.

I'm making the assumption these tickets are somewhat cheaper than regular anytime singles? Therefore it may be financially beneficial to buy them and risk losing £10 as an admin fee than lingering and having to pay full price? Just a thought.

Are all of the refunded tickets early bird anytime?

It is cheaper by quite a bit, comparing to regular anytime singles, and not all are early bird anytime as far as i can remember now but, i think majority of it are - is this to bolster my ‘story’ in case i need to explain my buying pattern?

In any case, does all these make a difference when i’m entitled to the refund proceeds as the tickets are unused and i’ve not undertaken the travel?

 

[CyrusWuff]

This could be a significant detail.

I'm making the assumption these tickets are somewhat cheaper than regular anytime singles? Therefore it may be financially beneficial to buy them and risk losing £10 as an admin fee than lingering and having to pay full price? Just a thought.

Are all of the refunded tickets early bird anytime?

Taking Manchester to Euston as an example, the Anytime Single is £184.70, whilst the Earlybird is £147.80, a discount of 20%. They have to be purchased at least 15 days in advance but are otherwise functionally equivalent to a regular Anytime Single.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

If all is as stated then I would expect there to have been many occasions where the ticket wasn’t scanned and the OP didn’t claim a refund (because they travelled that day).

But if that’s the case, it’s puzzling that AWC’s software has flagged the refund patterns as problematic. Unless it’s unsophisticated enough not to take such details into account.

 

[cappiskoepka]

If all is as stated then I would expect there to have been many occasions where the ticket wasn’t scanned and the OP didn’t claim a refund (because they travelled that day).

But if that’s the case, it’s puzzling that AWC’s software has flagged the refund patterns as problematic. Unless it’s unsophisticated enough not to take such details into account.

To be honest, the times where i actually travelled, almost 90% of the times my tickets were scanned as either the stations were close-barriered or there were inspectors on board. Even so, i wouldn’t have submitted any travelled but unscanned tickets for refunds anyway - that’s wrong.

All they claim is just excessive refund and nothing else, guess all i can do now is wait for their response…

Taking Manchester to Euston as an example, the Anytime Single is £184.70, whilst the Earlybird is £147.80, a discount of 20%. They have to be purchased at least 15 days in advance but are otherwise functionally equivalent to a regular Anytime Single.

That is the case most of the time, i do buy it rather in advance - i like to plan out my schedule that way.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

i wouldn’t have submitted any travelled but unscanned tickets for refunds anyway - that’s wrong.

Indeed, but if you continue this way of purchasing and refunding can you be absolutely certain that a ticket that's been used for travel won't inadvertently get into the monthly batches you're claiming refunds for?

Avanti only has to find one provable instance of a misplaced claim to make your bulk refunding look like a fraudulent enterprise.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

If you haven’t already done this, work out all the train tickets that you have bought. Then work out all the journeys that you made, and finally all the refunds you claimed.

From this, you should be able to show that there is no overlap between journeys made and refunds claimed. If it turns out there is, you will need to ask yourself whether the railway will accept that overlap as accidental or whether they will treat it as deliberate.

The thing is, if the railway decide to play hardball and go to court (whether civil to recover the money they think they’re owed, or criminal as they’re treating this as some sort of fraud) you will need some sort of defence, beyond purely asserting that you didn’t do it. If the railway present evidence for their side of the story and you only give your word for your side then my expectation (in the civil court at least) would be that they would win in that the balance of the evidence would be in their favour. So although this sounds like telling you as the potential defendant that you need to prove your case rather than that the claimant/prosecution needing to prove theirs, it’s worth doing the legwork to decide how strong your position is.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I you know you aren't going to be using a ticket apply before the journey date/time rather than after, avoids all the speculation.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

I'd also check if you have any pairs of singles that have been used in one direction only and the other refunded, that could be raising a red flag also

 

[Snow1964]

But if that’s the case, it’s puzzling that AWC’s software has flagged the refund patterns as problematic. Unless it’s unsophisticated enough not to take such details into account.

Quite likely, I am sure in past someone said first check is just something like 8 refunds in x months, then it starts to look more closely at the refund pattern.

I would doubt many bulk buy tickets on a speculative basis then bulk refund them. Completely different from someone buying a cheap advance when released for say each Wednesday then if meeting is cancelled request refund before travel.

 

[fandroid]

I wonder if Avanti see that the OP's strategy is possibly compromising the commercial viability of Earlybird Singles and don't want the idea to spread through forums like ours?

Hassling him about his refunds might be aimed at discouraging the strategy.

I'm sceptical that they would pursue this through a court case without any actual evidence of his travelling on refunded tickets. It could be the usual ploy of applying threats of court in order to get the outcome they actually want.

I don't think that there's much more they can do but bluster, and there's a good chance it will go away if a firm final denial is issued. If they think they have real evidence, they'll make use of it anyway

 

[northwichcat]

Normal people do not bulk-buy single/return tickets that they may or may not use, because of the £10 refund fee. So Avanti will be finding this suspicious.

The £10 fee doesn't apply for strike action. Given the cost of Anytime Returns between London and Manchester is almost £400, it may be cheaper (in the long run) for businesses to buy £80 Advances and to accept they'll make a £10 loss if meetings are cancelled or people are sick. My employer doesn't really have a common sense policy with business travel - we can end up incurring overnight stays in Premier Inn Hubs costing over £200 because the company doesn't want to pay a refundable rate 2 months in advance.

 

[island]

Given the cost of Anytime Returns between London and Manchester is almost £400, it may be cheaper (in the long run) for businesses to buy £80 Advances and to accept they'll make a £10 loss if meetings are cancelled or people are sick.

This doesn't make any sense. An advance is either refundable with no fee (due to a disruption) or non-refundable. There is no situation where an Advance is refundable with a £10 fee.