Excessive Refund Fraud - AWC

[Haywain]

Provided you refund the case before the date of validity there should be no question that you have used the ticket you are claiming a refund on.

Indeed, and no retailer is likely to have a problem with refunds being processed when the request is submitted prior to the ticket's travel date, no matter what quantity is involved.

either tweak their fraud detection, or might even decide to make those early tickets harder to refund.

Or, even in the short term, make it more difficult for the OP to obtain refunds, regardless of legitimacy.

 

[cappiskoepka]

Provided you refund the case before the date of validity there should be no question that you have used the ticket you are claiming a refund on.

That is the case for some of the tickets i’ve refunded but some were filed after or on the date of supposed travel so i guess there’s the hard part in explaining there…

There should be nothing to stop you carrying on, they will almost certainly make a file note against your account to avoid another letter repeating same question in few weeks/months.

If you have never claimed a refund on a used ticket that you bought early whilst cheaper, then there is no fraud. Unusual behaviour that a simple scan flags and cause questions to be asked, but that doesn't mean it's wrong, just needs further checking/clarification

Longer term will either tweak their fraud detection, or might even decide to make those early tickets harder to refund.

Hopefully this clears out and i guess the best way forward is to not hit their ‘quota’ of refunds filed even if it’s genuine and legitimate!

Indeed, and no retailer is likely to have a problem with refunds being processed when the request is submitted prior to the ticket's travel date, no matter what quantity is involved.


Or, even in the short term, make it more difficult for the OP to obtain refunds, regardless of legitimacy.

First para: that is the case for some. Since they didn’t specify which exact refunds are they disputing, all i can do is wait and see… i suppose they have a ‘quota’ for refunds before it seems suspicious?

Second para: this sudden email of alleged fraud from AWC is already putting me away from refunding lol - don’t want any unnecessary issue in my life!

 

[JBuchananGB]

I think the answer is to keep good records of what you do, and submit the refund requests the day before the ticket is due to be used, or sooner if you know for sure that you won't be using it, not stack them up and submit claims after the date of the ticket. Claims submitted after the date on the ticket make the train company think it may have been used, but as it was not scanned someone is up to no good.

 

[Skie]

I think the answer is to keep good records of what you do, and submit the refund requests the day before the ticket is due to be used, or sooner if you know for sure that you won't be using it, not stack them up and submit claims after the date of the ticket. Claims submitted after the date on the ticket make the train company think it may have been used, but as it was not scanned someone is up to no good.

This is a good strategy.

In the meantime, I'd be compiling a list of tickets where you did refund them before the time/date of travel. If it's a large percentage of the overall refunds then you've at least got some proof that you're doing what you say you're doing if this goes any further. Proving you haven't travelled on tickets refunded after the date of travel has passed is significantly harder than proving you're refunding them before, which can only help your story sound more believable.

It could get fairly messy and really depends on how arsey AWC want to be.

 

[cappiskoepka]

This is a good strategy.

In the meantime, I'd be compiling a list of tickets where you did refund them before the time/date of travel. If it's a large percentage of the overall refunds then you've at least got some proof that you're doing what you say you're doing if this goes any further. Proving you haven't travelled on tickets refunded after the date of travel has passed is significantly harder than proving you're refunding them before, which can only help your story sound more believable.

It could get fairly messy and really depends on how arsey AWC want to be.

Thanks to both for the great suggestion - will be doing that. I refund in bulk because it’s just easier to be honest, didnt really put that much thought into this outcome unfortunately

I really hope AWC give me off with a ‘warning’ when i’m not in any wrong here…

 

[Starmill]

Sounds about right! Tbh i only used simple maths as if i buy 10 tix at £50 compared to 10 tix at £80 (just an example, of course), i’m saving - easy as that.

I guess i can no longer do this and risk another case!!

You can happily do this with the Earlybird tickets, or any other tickets with a booking deadline (though if they're Advance, you can only change them, not refund them). Make sure you amend or cancel bookings of these types of tickets before the departure time of the train if they're not going to be used.

Don't do it with any other Off Peak or Anytime tickets. If you are using these, just wait until your travel plans are confirmed, then buy the tickets. Surely that's easier for you anyway?

 

[cappiskoepka]

You can happily do this with the Earlybird tickets, or any other tickets with a booking deadline (though if they're Advance, you can only change them, not refund them). Make sure you amend or cancel bookings of these types of tickets before the departure time of the train if they're not going to be used.

Don't do it with any other Off Peak or Anytime tickets. If you are using these, just wait until your travel plans are confirmed, then buy the tickets. Surely that's easier for you anyway?

So is it that only Earlybird and Advances’ that the price will go up along with time but not Off Peak or Anytime? I’ve been using trainline for the past few years and i always thought all prices will go up the closer it gets to traveling.

 

[MrJeeves]

So is it that only Earlybird and Advances’ that the price will go up along with time but not Off Peak or Anytime? I’ve been using trainline for the past few years and i always thought all prices will go up the closer it gets to traveling.

Anytime/off-peak/super off-peak are all "walk up" tickets, meaning they cost the same if you buy in advance versus if you "walk up" and buy them.

It's only advances that typically change price depending on demand.

These early bird tickets are effectively walk ups with a discount if you buy X days or more before departure. They're not common except on long distance routes.

 

[fandroid]

To see what the fares are for your journeys, and for all types of ticket look up brfares.com

You will see that the normal Anytime, Off-peak and Super Offpeak don't change between official annual fare increase dates. A ticket bought 1 minute before departure will cost the same as one bought 3 months ahead.

 

[Llanigraham]

I know of a couple of companies who regularly buy up 1st class advances on the same departure for several weeks in a row on certain trains to London regardless of whether a staff member will be travelling or not, just to have them ready just incase, so it's not unheard of for business to do these sort of things, there may be cheaper ways of doing things but that's not always the primary motivator for doing things in a certain way

Agreed, but this isn't a business doing that, just an individual.
And as such I think the OP would be well advised not buying tickets for other people who may not be travelling and encourage them to buy their own.

 

[Starmill]

I’ve been using trainline for the past few years and i always thought all prices will go up the closer it gets to traveling.

The fact that you're refunding tickets which don't have a booking deadline (that is to say the prices won't change depending on when you book) is central to why Avanti West Coast think it's suspicious.

 

[Richardr]

The fact that you're refunding tickets which don't have a booking deadline (that is to say the prices won't change depending on when you book) is central to why Avanti West Coast think it's suspicious.

Don't they have to be bought at least a couple of weeks before travel?

 

[spag23]

And as such I think the OP would be well advised not buying tickets for other people who may not be travelling and encourage them to buy their own.

And if the OP has passed the tickets to others, and these people return them, declaring them to be unused, the OP only has their word for this status. So if the journey had been taken, the OP is leaving themselves exposed to being involved - however unwittingly - in a fraudulent refund. As others have commented, getting people to buy their own tickets (especially for non-business use) seems a lot safer.

 

[Starmill]

Don't they have to be bought at least a couple of weeks before travel?

No, off peak and anytime tickets don't have a booking deadline. You can buy them after departure time if you want to, and your service is running late.

 

[John R]

The fact that you're refunding tickets which don't have a booking deadline (that is to say the prices won't change depending on when you book) is central to why Avanti West Coast think it's suspicious.

I'd agree with that, and to add, for someone who is clearly not that clued up on the terms of tickets to be buying and refunding them for a third party is (at the most charitable interpretation) extremely ill-advised.

 

[MrJeeves]

No, off peak and anytime tickets don't have a booking deadline. You can buy them after departure time if you want to, and your service is running late.

Aren't we talking about the long distance early bird tickets here? They do have a clearly defined booking deadline of 15 days prior on Avanti.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[Richardr]

No, off peak and anytime tickets don't have a booking deadline. You can buy them after departure time if you want to, and your service is running late.

Irrelevant to the issue here though - the Earlybird tickets purchased here have different rules [hence the reason for buying them well in advance].

 

[John R]

I usually get the early bird any time single, which is not available if you buy closer to the time traveling.

Note that the OP said that they usually get the early bird ticket - not that they exclusively bought them. And given the recent comment that they thought other types of ticket also increase in price closer to travel, it's a reasonable assumption that they may have purchased and refunded those too - perhaps the OP can comment?

 

[cappiskoepka]

Agreed, but this isn't a business doing that, just an individual.
And as such I think the OP would be well advised not buying tickets for other people who may not be travelling and encourage them to buy their own.

The fact that you're refunding tickets which don't have a booking deadline (that is to say the prices won't change depending on when you book) is central to why Avanti West Coast think it's suspicious.

Yea, i really didn’t think that it would be such an issue of buying for others (earlybird, off peak, whatever it is that’s refundable) and just refund if they decided to not travel in the end for whatever reason - guess i shot myself on the foot here.

Note that the OP said that they usually get the early bird ticket - not that they exclusively bought them. And given the recent comment that they thought other types of ticket also increase in price closer to travel, it's a reasonable assumption that they may have purchased and refunded those too - perhaps the OP can comment?

That’s correct, just the genuine intention of buying early = saving money - well at least, that’s the case for the earlybirds…

 

[John R]

Yea, i really didn’t think that it would be such an issue of buying for others (earlybird, off peak, whatever it is that’s refundable) and just refund if they decided to not travel in the end for whatever reason - guess i shot myself on the foot here.


That’s correct, just the genuine intention of buying early = saving money - well at least, that’s the case for the earlybirds…

Thanks. It's certainly going to be tricky to explain the refunding of those for which there is no variation in price.

Are you able to point to tickets which weren't scanned and not refunded - probably hard to remember I guess, and even harder for tickets purchased for others? AWC will have that information of course - I would have thought a pattern whereby every time a ticket was not scanned it was refunded would be much more suspicious. So in converse, a pattern whereby there are lots of unscanned tickets for which refunds have not been requested would tend to support your position if it ended up in court. You should certainly ask for the information they hold on all your tickets should this go further.

 

[Starmill]

Irrelevant to the issue here though - the Earlybird tickets purchased here have different rules [hence the reason for buying them well in advance].

If you were to read the post quoted (67) you'd see it's anything but irrelevant. Also this has already been pointed out in 66.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

If this matter were ever to end up in court, the prosecution would need 'to prove its case beyond reasonable doubt'. A somewhat unusual approach to ticket buying and refunding surely does not prove anything beyond reasonable doubt. Provided that the ticket buying is 'within the rules', there is surely no case to answer?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

If this matter were ever to end up in court, the prosecution would need 'to prove its case beyond reasonable doubt'. A somewhat unusual approach to ticket buying and refunding surely does not prove anything beyond reasonable doubt. Provided that the ticket buying is 'within the rules', there is surely no case to answer?

I am not a lawyer, but surely it's not just the ticket buying but also the ticket use and the ticket refunding?

In this case, the OP is very clear that they have not tried to refund tickets that have been used, and it's my impression that they are clear on the distinction between 'used but not checked' and 'not used so not checked ' (to say nothing of 'used and checked'). So should the matter reach court, it's hard to see how a prosecution could succeed. As I understand it, the purpose of this thread is to help the OP marshal their evidence such as to get the railway to discontinue their check as soon as possible, and so stop taking up the OP's time.

 

[cappiskoepka]

Thanks. It's certainly going to be tricky to explain the refunding of those for which there is no variation in price.

Are you able to point to tickets which weren't scanned and not refunded - probably hard to remember I guess, and even harder for tickets purchased for others? AWC will have that information of course - I would have thought a pattern whereby every time a ticket was not scanned it was refunded would be much more suspicious. So in converse, a pattern whereby there are lots of unscanned tickets for which refunds have not been requested would tend to support your position if it ended up in court. You should certainly ask for the information they hold on all your tickets should this go further.

Great suggestion, once they respond, i will definitely ask for more information on basis of their claim before going any further. And yes, as you’ve said, i couldn’t recall which weren’t scanned and not refunded - pretty all my non-refunded tickets were scanned due to barriered stations/inspectors on board almost all the time.

I am not a lawyer, but surely it's not just the ticket buying but also the ticket use and the ticket refunding?

In this case, the OP is very clear that they have not tried to refund tickets that have been used, and it's my impression that they are clear on the distinction between 'used but not checked' and 'not used so not checked ' (to say nothing of 'used and checked'). So should the matter reach court, it's hard to see how a prosecution could succeed. As I understand it, the purpose of this thread is to help the OP marshal their evidence such as to get the railway to discontinue their check as soon as possible, and so stop taking up the OP's time.

Couldn’t have summarize it better myself - don’t wan’t this on my radar any more!

 

[cappiskoepka]

So in the end, without them explaining anything further, other than the initial email from AWC, they’ve decided to close the claim - this is ridiculous

 

[Fawkes Cat]

So in the end, without them explaining anything further, other than the initial email from AWC, they’ve decided to close the claim - this is ridiculous

So if I've understood you properly, the railway are no longer pursuing you and you can go about your life without them worrying you?

In that case, that's a good result - well done in getting them to accept your viewpoint. What's not so good is that AWC don't seem to have shown any particular grace or courtesy about agreeing that you're right.

Unfortunately, this seems to be a widespread problem with the railway in general. It would, of course, be best if they never investigated a case where their suspicions turned out to be groundless (with the flipside that they would identify and pursue all cases where they did have grounds for suspicion) but in the absence of that it would be nice if there was some courtesy when they finished up. Without knowing exactly what they wrote to you, that doesn't even need to be an apology: a closing paragraph saying something like 'Thank you for your help in this matter: we now understand that there is nothing for us to be concerned about and we could only reach that decision with the assistance you kindly gave us' would go a long way to smooth over any irritation.

 

[cappiskoepka]

Yes, your understand is correct. It seems to me that this might just be a fishing expedition and see who folds i assume?

I’ve only explained that all my tickets were unused so why cant i claim my refunds and that’s it - it is rather annoying as you’ve stated that they never offered any sort of apology or whatsoever…

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, your understand is correct. It seems to me that this might just be a fishing expedition and see who folds i assume?

I’ve only explained that all my tickets were unused so why cant i claim my refunds and that’s it - it is rather annoying as you’ve stated that they never offered any sort of apology or whatsoever…

It appears to have been triggered by a simple volume of refunds with little to no human intervention to scan the case for actual suspicion before the correspondence was sent out. Not good practice at all.

 

[Alex C.]

It appears to have been triggered by a simple volume of refunds with little to no human intervention to scan the case for actual suspicion before the correspondence was sent out. Not good practice at all.

This kind of behaviour is becoming more prevalent with the advances in machine learning which are taking place.

I saw an account (on another forum) of someone making an insurance claim and then being told that speech analysis showed that they may have been lying - they were given the option of proceeding with an investigation which could lead to a report being made to the police, or withdrawing the claim.

Both (the example above and the subject of this thread) are totally unacceptable and it really bothers me that we're relying on a combination of fairly unproven technology and intimidation to tackle problems like this. I'm sure WMR can show a positive ROI on this approach but there are many people who would fold and pay, even if they were entirely innocent, when threatened with a potential criminal record.

 

[akm]

Don't need machine learning for a company to think "why the heck is this guy refunding twenty tickets a month??" or whatever it actually is