Excessive Refund Fraud - AWC

[northwichcat]

This doesn't make any sense. An advance is either refundable with no fee (due to a disruption) or non-refundable. There is no situation where an Advance is refundable with a £10 fee.

Just checked

Changing or getting a refund for Advance tickets
If you need to change the day or time that you are travelling, you can amend your ticket right up to the time your journey is due to begin. You may be charged £10 to change your ticket and you will also be charged for any difference in price between your ticket and the new ticket.

Advance tickets are non-refundable, unless your train is delayed or cancelled and you choose not to travel.

Advance Train Tickets | National Rail

Book ahead and save money with Advance tickets. They are great value, and ideal for saving money on long journeys. They must be bought in advance and are only valid on the date and train specified.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

So yes no refund if your plans change. However, that suggests if a 15 Jan meeting is rescheduled for 15 Feb and I hold a £80 Advance, that I could change to a £90 Advance on the 15 Feb for £10 admin fee and the £10 fare difference, which could still work out cheaper than the on-the-day price for peak trains.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Out if interest, what percentage (roughly) of tickets are you getting refunded - ie are you purchasing, say, 20 tickets per month but getting say 15 refunded? A high ratio of refunds to purchases could look very suspicious.

Thinking about this. If I was AWC I would go to court* and let them sort it out. In the balance of probability it seems tickets are bought, if not scanned or used through the barrier then refunded. How many people buy too much of anything and then when they don't use / eat it are happy with a £10 refund penalty. Just does not happen in the real world to be honest unless someone here cab think of an example.

Very sorry but that's my take on it.

*if the tickets were bought for work colleagues at the start of the month then the company legal department should represent you and bring copies of emails to demonstrate cancelled meeting etc. In that scenario there would surely be a straight forward evidential paper chain.

Re: the bit I've put in bold

Only remotely similar example I can think of would be online clothes shopping, where some people buy multiple styles and sizes with the intention of returning a significant proportionof their order after diciding what fits/suits them, where some retailers now charge a refund fee.

Still very different than bulk buying travel for multiple people and then cancelling/changing those plans on multiple occasions. Legitimate or not, that is going to stick out like a sore thumb and look very suspicious to the relevant companies.

 

[Haywain]

Legitimate or not, that is going to stick out like a sore thumb and look very suspicious to the relevant companies.

The company (Avanti) have seen what they consider suspicious behaviour and have correctly asked questions about it. The OP's actions may well be legitimate but most sensible people, when advised that their behaviour is raising suspicions, will either explain what they are doing or modify their behaviour so that they no longer arouse suspicion. Hopefully the OP will, as a result of posting here, see why their actions look suspicious to Avanti as well as to a significant number of posters here, and can use that to inform what they do in future.

 

[randyrippley]

Just commuting in to office for work - not work away from office. Does this make any difference?


There is no register, log in book, or anything similar unfortunately to prove my location…

I’m just struggling to figure out how can i prove that i’ve not taken the train and not one that applied for refund when obviously they’ve taken the trip but just not scanned.

Mobile phone / Google tracking location records may prove where you were each day

 

[cappiskoepka]

Indeed, but if you continue this way of purchasing and refunding can you be absolutely certain that a ticket that's been used for travel won't inadvertently get into the monthly batches you're claiming refunds for?

Avanti only has to find one provable instance of a misplaced claim to make your bulk refunding look like a fraudulent enterprise.

I get you but I’m pretty sure none of those submitted contains those travelled but unscanned tickets.

 

[John R]

Mobile phone / Google tracking location records may prove where you were each day

Except that the OP has stated that some were bought for other people, so that doesnt prove anything.

 

[cappiskoepka]

If you haven’t already done this, work out all the train tickets that you have bought. Then work out all the journeys that you made, and finally all the refunds you claimed.

From this, you should be able to show that there is no overlap between journeys made and refunds claimed. If it turns out there is, you will need to ask yourself whether the railway will accept that overlap as accidental or whether they will treat it as deliberate.

The thing is, if the railway decide to play hardball and go to court (whether civil to recover the money they think they’re owed, or criminal as they’re treating this as some sort of fraud) you will need some sort of defence, beyond purely asserting that you didn’t do it. If the railway present evidence for their side of the story and you only give your word for your side then my expectation (in the civil court at least) would be that they would win in that the balance of the evidence would be in their favour. So although this sounds like telling you as the potential defendant that you need to prove your case rather than that the claimant/prosecution needing to prove theirs, it’s worth doing the legwork to decide how strong your position is.

I don’t get the issue with ticket timing overlapping - could you elaborate? Say i paid for one where it departs at 7pm and another at 8pm, i took the 8pm instead of 7pm for whatever reason and applied for refund for the 7pm ticket - is this wrong?

I you know you aren't going to be using a ticket apply before the journey date/time rather than after, avoids all the speculation.

Yea, it’s a mix - some are before, some on the day itself, some before the journey.

I'd also check if you have any pairs of singles that have been used in one direction only and the other refunded, that could be raising a red flag also

I don’t think so, since i didn’t travel at all i refunded both ways.

Out if interest, what percentage (roughly) of tickets are you getting refunded - ie are you purchasing, say, 20 tickets per month but getting say 15 refunded? A high ratio of refunds to purchases could look very suspicious.


Re: the bit I've put in bold

Only remotely similar example I can think of would be online clothes shopping, where some people buy multiple styles and sizes with the intention of returning a significant proportionof their order after diciding what fits/suits them, where some retailers now charge a refund fee.

Still very different than bulk buying travel for multiple people and then cancelling/changing those plans on multiple occasions. Legitimate or not, that is going to stick out like a sore thumb and look very suspicious to the relevant companies.

It really depends, there are months with higher ratio and some maybe 1 out of 10 ticket got refunded?

The company (Avanti) have seen what they consider suspicious behaviour and have correctly asked questions about it. The OP's actions may well be legitimate but most sensible people, when advised that their behaviour is raising suspicions, will either explain what they are doing or modify their behaviour so that they no longer arouse suspicion. Hopefully the OP will, as a result of posting here, see why their actions look suspicious to Avanti as well as to a significant number of posters here, and can use that to inform what they do in future.

Yea lol i guess i’ll just do last minute bookings from now on

Except that the OP has stated that some were bought for other people, so that doesnt prove anything.

That’s correct and i can’t recall all the exact details for every ticket too…

 

[John R]

The other possibility that AWC might suspect is that two very short fares are purchased to get through the barriers at either end and a valid ticket held for if inspected during the journey. If not inspected, bingo, a refund can be claimed.

 

[Snow1964]

I don’t get the issue with ticket timing overlapping - could you elaborate? Say i paid for one where it departs at 7pm and another at 8pm, i took the 8pm instead of 7pm for whatever reason and applied for refund for the 7pm ticket - is this wrong?

It's a weird situation, because normally tickets for a specific train aren't refundable, and for those tickets that don't specify the time (open) it would be pointless to buy 2 because can travel on either 7pm or 8pm

It would be perfectly reasonable to buy 2 very cheap return tickets at different times if didn't know when your meeting finished, if combined cost was less than the open ticket. But you would be expecting to abandon the other one, not get it refunded. eg train A is £40, train B is £55, but open anytime ticket is £150. So would pay your £95 instead of £150

 

[cappiskoepka]

The other possibility that AWC might suspect is that two very short fares are purchased to get through the barriers at either end and a valid ticket held for if inspected during the journey. If not inspected, bingo, a refund can be claimed.

What do you mean by “two short fares”? Either way, i didn’t get extra short fare tickets just the for barriers at either end - all tickets refunded are full journey travels if that make sense

 

[Haywain]

Say i paid for one where it departs at 7pm and another at 8pm, i took the 8pm instead of 7pm for whatever reason and applied for refund for the 7pm ticket - is this wrong?

Anytime tickets aren't restricted to specific trains, so there is no need to buy two tickets for the same day if you are not sure which train you will travel on. Is this what you have been doing?

 

[cappiskoepka]

It's a weird situation, because normally tickets for a specific train aren't refundable, and for those tickets that don't specify the time (open) it would be pointless to buy 2 because can travel on either 7pm or 8pm

It would be perfectly reasonable to buy 2 very cheap return tickets at different times if didn't know when your meeting finished, if combined cost was less than the open ticket. But you would be expecting to abandon the other one, not get it refunded

First para: ah i see what it means now, thanks.

Second para: Why cant i get it refunded if the ticket is not used?

 

[John R]

What do you mean by “two short fares”? Either way, i didn’t get extra short fare tickets just the for barriers at either end - all tickets refunded are full journey travels if that make sense

The cheapest fare that will get you through a gateline. Typically the nearest stations to your start and end points.

 

[cappiskoepka]

Anytime tickets aren't restricted to specific trains, so there is no need to buy two tickets for the same day if you are not sure which train you will travel on. Is this what you have been doing?

That’s just an example i’ve stated to try and understand what the other posters meant.

When i get two tickets for one journey are mostly (if not all) on different dates

The cheapest fare that will get you through a gateline. Typically the nearest stations to your start and end points.

Ah i see, none of that - all are full journey fares (eg: LDN -> MCR)

 

[Haywain]

When i get two tickets for one journey are mostly (if not all) on different dates

This starts to sound like you have been buying more tickets than necessary. The Early Bird Anytime Single is valid to be used on any one train over two days. It's very flexible.

 

[Llanigraham]

Mobile phone / Google tracking location records may prove where you were each day

Accept that in the beginning of this thread the OP states he is also buying tickets for other employees, who also (allegedly) do not use these tickets, and therefore applying for refunds.
Why aren't these employees buying their own tickets?

 

[cappiskoepka]

This starts to sound like you have been buying more tickets than necessary. The Early Bird Anytime Single is valid to be used on any one train over two days. It's very flexible.

Two days? I thought was only for the day itself!

In any case, not all the time on my second ticket is dated the day after my initial refunded ticket - might be 3 days or a week after.

Accept that in the beginning of this thread the OP states he is also buying tickets for other employees, who also (allegedly) do not use these tickets, and therefore applying for refunds.
Why aren't these employees buying their own tickets?

It’s just easier sometimes - that’s it. Nonetheless, most of then time when i’m buying on behalf of others are for personal travels. Surely AWC/Trainline has no issue against buying for others right…

 

[skyhigh]

Surely AWC/Trainline has no issue against buying for others right…

You are able to buy tickets for others, but it's fairly unusual for people to buy tickets for others to travel on a regular basis.

 

[John R]

It would also seem unusual that both tickets bought for one person for business use and for other people for non-business use to have a similar pattern of refunds.

 

[AlterEgo]

You are able to buy tickets for others, but it's fairly unusual for people to buy tickets for others to travel on a regular basis.

It's not that uncommon. Some people like to rinse credit card points.

 

[MrJeeves]

Two days? I thought was only for the day itself!

That message wasn't very clear. You can't use them for end-to-end travel twice, but you could break your journey overnight somewhere in the middle, then continue form that place the next day.

 

[AlterEgo]

That message wasn't very clear. You can't use them for end-to-end travel twice, but you could break your journey overnight somewhere in the middle, then continue form that place the next day.

There is also no requirement to start the journey on the first day either. You may use the whole ticket on the second day of validity.

But yes, regardless, you can only use a Single ticket for one journey.

 

[Haywain]

That message wasn't very clear. You can't use them for end-to-end travel twice, but you could break your journey overnight somewhere in the middle, then continue form that place the next day.

Or you can make the entire journey on the second day. I was trying to be as clear as possible, but perhaps I should have said to make one journey at any time over a period of two days.

 

[JBuchananGB]

I can understand why someone would buy multiple EarlyBird Anytime singles and refund them if not used. Let's say that they expect to travel from A to B and back twice a week but don't know two weeks in advance which two days that will be. The Anytime Single fare is £80 so they need 4 of these costing £320. But with EarlyBird Singles the fare is £64. So they buy 10 of these costing £640. At the end of the week they have used 4 tickets, and refund 6 of them. They receive £324 back. So their 2 round trips have cost them £316. Even in this extreme example they have saved £4.
Suppose they had only bought 6 EB tickets and refunded 2 of them. Spent £384. Refund £108. Net fare £276. Saving compared to 4 Anytime Singles £44.
We don't know the OP's actual arithmetic, but I guess he has worked it out and it made sense to him. But I can see why it doesn't make sense to Avanti!

 

[fandroid]

I can understand why someone would buy multiple EarlyBird Anytime singles and refund them if not used. Let's say that they expect to travel from A to B and back twice a week but don't know two weeks in advance which two days that will be. The Anytime Single fare is £80 so they need 4 of these costing £320. But with EarlyBird Singles the fare is £64. So they buy 10 of these costing £640. At the end of the week they have used 4 tickets, and refund 6 of them. They receive £324 back. So their 2 round trips have cost them £316. Even in this extreme example they have saved £4.
Suppose they had only bought 6 EB tickets and refunded 2 of them. Spent £384. Refund £108. Net fare £276. Saving compared to 4 Anytime Singles £44.
We don't know the OP's actual arithmetic, but I guess he has worked it out and it made sense to him. But I can see why it doesn't make sense to Avanti!

I think someone's got the picture!

 

[glasgowniteowl]

I know of a couple of companies who regularly buy up 1st class advances on the same departure for several weeks in a row on certain trains to London regardless of whether a staff member will be travelling or not, just to have them ready just incase, so it's not unheard of for business to do these sort of things, there may be cheaper ways of doing things but that's not always the primary motivator for doing things in a certain way

 

[Fawkes Cat]

If you haven’t already done this, work out all the train tickets that you have bought. Then work out all the journeys that you made, and finally all the refunds you claimed.

From this, you should be able to show that there is no overlap between journeys made and refunds claimed. If it turns out there is, you will need to ask yourself whether the railway will accept that overlap as accidental or whether they will treat it as deliberate.

I don’t get the issue with ticket timing overlapping - could you elaborate? Say i paid for one where it departs at 7pm and another at 8pm, i took the 8pm instead of 7pm for whatever reason and applied for refund for the 7pm ticket - is this wrong?

I'm sorry, I appear to have chosen my words badly.

To work through what I was trying to say: let's imagine there were five tickets, A, B, C, D and E.

You check which of these you travelled on: that turns out to be A, B and E.

Then you check which tickets you claimed a refund on. If you refunded C and D, there's no problem. But if it turns out you have refunded A, C and D, then you're going to have to think why the lists overlap for ticket A.

Hope this helps!

 

[cappiskoepka]

Or you can make the entire journey on the second day. I was trying to be as clear as possible, but perhaps I should have said to make one journey at any time over a period of two days.

I can understand why someone would buy multiple EarlyBird Anytime singles and refund them if not used. Let's say that they expect to travel from A to B and back twice a week but don't know two weeks in advance which two days that will be. The Anytime Single fare is £80 so they need 4 of these costing £320. But with EarlyBird Singles the fare is £64. So they buy 10 of these costing £640. At the end of the week they have used 4 tickets, and refund 6 of them. They receive £324 back. So their 2 round trips have cost them £316. Even in this extreme example they have saved £4.
Suppose they had only bought 6 EB tickets and refunded 2 of them. Spent £384. Refund £108. Net fare £276. Saving compared to 4 Anytime Singles £44.
We don't know the OP's actual arithmetic, but I guess he has worked it out and it made sense to him. But I can see why it doesn't make sense to Avanti!

Sounds about right! Tbh i only used simple maths as if i buy 10 tix at £50 compared to 10 tix at £80 (just an example, of course), i’m saving - easy as that.

I guess i can no longer do this and risk another case!!

I'm sorry, I appear to have chosen my words badly.

To work through what I was trying to say: let's imagine there were five tickets, A, B, C, D and E.

You check which of these you travelled on: that turns out to be A, B and E.

Then you check which tickets you claimed a refund on. If you refunded C and D, there's no problem. But if it turns out you have refunded A, C and D, then you're going to have to think why the lists overlap for ticket A.

Hope this helps!

Yea that totally makes sense - thanks for the clarification. Nonetheless, i’m pretty sure no tickets overlapped.

I guess right now all i can do is wait for their response as to what’s their basis or just really because of high refund request = fraud…

 

[John R]

Provided you refund the case before the date of validity there should be no question that you have used the ticket you are claiming a refund on.

 

[Snow1964]

I guess i can no longer do this and risk another case!!


Yea that totally makes sense - thanks for the clarification. Nonetheless, i’m pretty sure no tickets overlapped.

I guess right now all i can do is wait for their response as to what’s their basis or just really because of high refund request = fraud…

There should be nothing to stop you carrying on, they will almost certainly make a file note against your account to avoid another letter repeating same question in few weeks/months.

If you have never claimed a refund on a used ticket that you bought early whilst cheaper, then there is no fraud. Unusual behaviour that a simple scan flags and cause questions to be asked, but that doesn't mean it's wrong, just needs further checking/clarification

Longer term will either tweak their fraud detection, or might even decide to make those early tickets harder to refund.